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Mind Manipulation revision: Numbers ain't everything
- Thread starter Bobsican
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- mind manipulation
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Bobsican
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- #42
Well, as now it would be based on resistance layers, rather than raw numbers, the potency would still be significantly lower than "billions", although for vs threads it may not change much given that it also goes the same for other verses.
Considering how standards go, a baseline resistance would be enought by default (unless resistance negation layers are involved, but you get the idea), but how it works is relevant too. A character that resists mindhax with sheer willpower won't resist a mindhax that targets something will can't cover.
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Considering this is the exact same as the last 4 threads on this, I agree with the take of just writing down the previous conclusions on the mind manip page, since a case by case thing is already what was accepted before.
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I agree with Gliver's takes.
Bobsican
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- #47
Chances are it'd remain baseline, but the "by how much higher" would be unknown anyways in cases where it's known to be stronger than normal generally, and as no resistances were bypassed in the first place, a baseline resistance should cover it by default, leaving at a side semantics over how it works and all, as said before.
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I agree just as I did with the other threads, miind haxxing a bunch of people is just aoe, and if someone has a passive mind hax within certain area and mindhax 15 people, it will not simply turn stronger if there's only 7 within the aoe, nor it will become weaker if 45 people enter within the aoe. Neither is very notable potency wise to mindhax +1000 individuals when they have no chances of avoid the effects.
If one character sacrifice aoe for potency then good (although, how much it would be about baseline, or how many "layers" it bypasses, is debatable).
If one character sacrifice aoe for potency then good (although, how much it would be about baseline, or how many "layers" it bypasses, is debatable).
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How would we be able to determine this.
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Not sure: what even is baseline mindhax? What exactly its a "layer" of resistance? If there's a passive madhax effect that would break the mind of the average people in 3-5 minutes, but a resistent character stand 20 minutes without breaking, how much "layers" of resistance does the character have above baseline?
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Since I believe it pertains to the discussion, I may as well ask: How would we scale which Mind Hax is stronger then? Say we have Vegeta, who has baseline Mind Manip Resistance as of rn. With this revision, he’d suddenly be able to overpower the likes of Obi-Wan or Mewtwo who, iirc, have Mindhax currently in at least the thousands, no?
I have seen very few verses where someone resists mindhax, only to get Mindhaxed by someone else, so this would functionally make Mindhax a very weak Win Condition compared to what it is now, am I correct?
Apologies if this has been previously stated, I already read and didn’t see it, so I’m just looking for clarification on what we do then.
I have seen very few verses where someone resists mindhax, only to get Mindhaxed by someone else, so this would functionally make Mindhax a very weak Win Condition compared to what it is now, am I correct?
Apologies if this has been previously stated, I already read and didn’t see it, so I’m just looking for clarification on what we do then.
Bobsican
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- #52
Baseline mindhax would be effectively just doing the power to a single sapient target that doesn't have a resistance to speak about. A layer of resistance would be someone having a resistance to mindhax, and this resistance being bypassed, hence "layer", as resistances stacking isn't unheard of. For the last part, that's unquantificable really, even if we knew the mindhax attempt was consistently constant across the timeframe, it would just be a "below" baseline resistance out of not exactly resisting it in the end, but rather withstanding it for a while.
Yeah, numbers will become just range generally, and not a proper way to measure the power by default, like how matter manip is measured on up to what level (molecular, atomical, quantic...), and not on how much matter is involved, as it's hax.
Mindhax would become far more realistic to be resisted in a vs thread with this, yes.
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So, resistances that reduces the effects of powers are by default "better" than resistances that reduces the duration of effects? Let say, someone uses some kind of time stop that last 5 seconds over two different characters: character A is completely stopped, but comes back to normal after 2.5 seconds, meanwhile character B instead of being stopped it instead gets slowed down 1000 times during a duration of 5 seconds; is character B more resistent than character A?
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I disagree with this thread, especially when characters across different fiction can channel their powers to affect one individual and it not just being an AOE thing.
Bobsican
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- #55
That some characters can concentrate their power to a single individual doesn't mean that all of them can, and even then a confirmation would be required of this act actually raising the "hax output" as the OP explains over the time stop example and its AoE not necessarily changing its power in the first place, plus even with that, the boost would be unquantificable out of resistance layers and numbers of people not being relatable as I've said before, thus making it practically just AoE.
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I need to point out that this isn't universal. There are plenty of fictional universes that Mind Manipulation really is that simple, or limited. Harry Potter's Imperius curse, for example, and many fantasy universes have really specific and easy forms of Mind Manipulation.
While I very much agree with the spirit of the thread, we need to remember that there is no standardization on how Mind Manipulation works, we just need to recognize that a Mind Manipulation effect that takes over a large area but has a small "hax potency" is possible and common. If that concept applies to a fictional universe's case, we need to analyse it in a case-by-case analysis, as usual. There are verses that Mind Manipulation are really that complicated, others that it is stupidly easy, some that go into detail on what it consists, some that do not, and most are very different mechanically.
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Also this.
This thread does not deny the existance of beings that can focus their "one million people mind control" might in one single being, thus overriding resistances up to a degree. Rather, this thread is to stop the baseline assumption of number of people quantify as a higher level of Mind Control.
That might be the case in some verses, that might be the case on specific cases in some verses (Like, it might scale to specific forms of Mind Manipulation. Warhammer 40k, for example, has some people who distinguish the capacity to override "single" minds to that of affecting many at once), but, at least from what I got on this thread, we need to recognize that there are a significant amount of cases that there are cases when amount of people simply do not scale to potency on an individual level at all.
Not as a Mind Manipulation thing, but heck, we need to take real life as an example more times. Real life has examples of the three things I mentioned (something's potency scaling to amount of people it can affect at once, scaling only partially/in some things or not scaling at all), with plenty of cross-interaction.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,625
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- #58
Hmmm... a case like that is probably up to how the verse treats it (And how such resistances work), but if no clarifications are given, technically character B has an higher resistance out of not being actually time stopped, like in a case where character A uses absolute zero on B on C. B gets to AZ for two seconds, but C remains at a slightly higher temperature for a bit longer, the same principle applies here, and this is why time stop resist users also resist time slow by default.
So yes, a resistance that reduces a effect is technically better than one that reduces its duration, even if the latter may be more practical at times, but if the latter reduces it to "nothing", then it's straight up fully resisted.
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Can we make a page for layered resistances? Or add a note to the resistance page
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So from what I understand, being completely unfased by baseline effect = one (1) layer of resistance? So characters that merely reduces the effects/duration of a power does not qualify to have one (1) layer of resistance?
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What is 4D mind hax huh?
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Mindhaxing 4-D beings
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Wouldn't that be like, normal mind manipulation with universe+ or higher range?
Bobsican
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- #65
I would be fine with that, a note may be best unless a large section of standards over those are required.
For the sake of avoiding NLFs it has been generally taken as those just bypassing resistance layers unless such resistances are up to a similar or higher dimensional level too.
They would have a resistance, it just would be below the baseline of someone being unaffected by a baseline effect, yes.
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No, as a 4-D being is infinitely more complex than 3-D ones, which also would apply to their minds
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I don't see how that would apply to their minds, do they get smarter or something? I don't think, if you can interact with higher dimensional being then you should be able to mind hax.
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I think it’s just plain out harder to interact with there mind. Not that the mind itself is better
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then I don't see how that would apply to their body, and from now, a 4-D being can be killed by a 3-D pistol
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Their mind just become 4D. Even if you can interact with 4D beings, If your mind hax is 3D you can't mindhax it no matter the potency.
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We didn't. It was always higher numbers bigger potency by default
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,625
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- #75
Depends on how it's done, if this act is something basic virtually any user of it could do so there's no issue on that regard, but as said before, this increase in potency (if it's even stated to be the case in the first place) is unquantificable and thus wouldn't bypass a baseline resistance by default.
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i disagree
Using numbers are far better. Without that ,there is no difference between a characther that mindhax a single being or infinite amount of beings, wich is dumb . Controlling more minds demand more potency and control than one(unless the one have previous feats of resistance) , range have nothing to do with it .
Using numbers are far better. Without that ,there is no difference between a characther that mindhax a single being or infinite amount of beings, wich is dumb . Controlling more minds demand more potency and control than one(unless the one have previous feats of resistance) , range have nothing to do with it .
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,625
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- #78
As said before, this is the equivalent of making up numbers to an unquantificable stat amp for the sake of it being usable in vs threads, which is a no out of effectively exaggerating the capabilities of someone. Mindhaxing an infinite amount of beings is just range, not potency, and even if someone could focus such power to a single target (Which can't be assumed to be something every mindhaxer can do), it would be unquantificably higher without further details, I've also already illustrated before how numbers and resistance layers don't correlate and shouldn't be equalized.
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The act of focusing the energy?
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