Mikey's downgrade (Part 1: Kid Mikey and Base Mikey - Powers and Abilities)

[XxZetsuxX]

Spoiler: KID Mikey

Acrobatics (Can easily perform highly acrobatic kicks since he was a child)

Problem - If we take a look at the description of the ability, it says the following;

Acrobatics is defined as the technique of performing maneuvers of balance, dexterity, agility, and coordination. In fiction, the levels of acrobatics can vary between simply performing extraordinary human movements to defiance of the laws of gravity and movement.
Then, We look at the categories;

All-Terrain Mobility: The user does not suffer any negative effects by moving in different types of terrains: closed spaces, slippery surfaces, collapsing structures. The user could hardly lose balance and speed in such terrains. - Mikey clearly doesn't fit this category

Self-Momentum: The character controls their own movements, being capable of accelerating and decelerating quickly with no issues, by physical means, such as pushing against a surface or grabbing an object mid-air, in order to change one's direction. - Mikey clearly doesn't fit this category

Surface Running: By stepping on any solid (or even liquid) surface and continuing to move, the user is capable of moving on walls, ceilings, and other irregular surfaces. Unlike Surface Scaling, a user needs to keep their speed in order to keep moving across the surface, falling back once they lose momentum. -
Mikey clearly doesn't fit this category

Hypermobility: The user is capable of performing extremely agile movements with their body that could cause pain or even notable injuries to the vast majority of other people under the same conditions, including surviving falls by simply maneuvering. - Mikey also doesn't fit this category

What Mikey is doing here, even a normal person who practises martial arts can do it, and this does not fit the criteria for the hypermobility as those moves don't cause pain or injuries

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Pressure Points (Since as early as age 4, and possibly earlier, Mikey was already labelled as a genius martial artist capable of kicking caps off of bottles with one try at 4 years of age. Was shown to kick people in the nose bridge, the temple and the chin)

The problem here is the bottle cap stuff, that has nothing to do with pressure points, so remove it

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Information Analysis (Was brought to Sameyama by Draken and, with little information, realized he was being set up and caved in Sameyama's face to "overwhelm them all")

Problem - Mikey has no showing of analysis in this scene, this was pure guesswork and intuition at best, We do not see Mikey's logical process, nor is it stated that he knew he was being set up.

More over, in Mikey's perspective, they could've just wanted to hang out, Mikey out of nowhere just decided to jump them without even making sure he was actually being set up, or like, he did not think first before acting, he jumped to conclusions which turned out to be correct, that's all

Not only that, in a delinquents setting it's extremely likely that when older dudes calls for you isn't because they want to be friends, especially when they dont know you and your reputation is based on being someone who beat the shit out of everyone

We also have an anti-feat for analysis, which would be Valhala vs Toman, where Mikey failed to see through Kazutora's trap of making them fight in a bad footing.

This feat would prove that Mikey when he is a kid was smarter than what he is currently which is false ain't it?

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Accelerated Development (Passive: Abilities - At 4 years old, Mikey had already mastered his craft without practice according to Baji. He could already kick sealed caps off bottles with one try which means he develops his skill far faster than Baji does)

Problem - The problem with this, is that the justification implies Mikey gets better at martial arts by doing absolutely nothing and is growing with each second passing which obviously is not true

Reworked Version;

Accelerated Development (Training: Skill - At 4 years old, Mikey was already the best student in the dojo. He could already kick sealed caps off bottles with one try which means he develops his skill far faster than Baji does)

Spoiler: Base Mikey

Enhanced Pressure Points (Shown to aim for his opponent's temples, chins, nose bridges, necks and solar plexus)

Problem - There's nothing enhanced about this quantity =/= quality, for it to be enhanced we need stuff like, "get paralyzed with a touch", or "die by hitting a specific part", these obviously do not enhance anything

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Enhanced Social Influencing (Social Position and Reputation - President of the Tokyo Manji Gang, which is a gang that quickly became famous around Tokyo after beating another famous gang, 9th Generation Black Dragons, with just 6 members on their debut. Mikey is known around other gang leaders with big reputation with his nickname, "The Invincible Mikey" | Instigating Fear - Chifuyu stated that all Toman captains had an aura around them, especially Mikey, that made him shake in their presence. | Leadership - Capable of leading multiple gangs with hundreds of members throughout the series | Better Charisma - Mikey is blessed with unparalleled charisma, something noted by both insiders and rival delinquents, which allows him to maintain his crew in line and garner the respect of other gang leaders)

Problem - There's also nothing enhanced about this, Charisma isn't something that can be upgraded, Mikey's leadership is also lacking, all he did was increase moral and nothing else, he did it as a kid and his current self, higher numbers =/= better leadership when all he does is moral elevation

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Enhanced Senses (Enhanced Awareness - Noticed Mitsuya listening in on his conversation with Takemichi)

Problem - Zefra already mentioned this in Dino's CRT, Mikey saw and even mentioned that Mitsuya's hair was sticking out of the tree

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Vehicular Mastery (Voted as the 2nd best motorcycle rider in the series)

Problem - I am not so sure about this but, aren't you supposed to do some stunts that normally are hard, like in the movies where the guy jumps to a truck via ramp, or car, or even maneuvers like backflips with it? Mikey only has statements of being the 2nd best in the series without any showing of impressive feats on this, just him riding the bike

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Afterimage Creation (Created an afterimage while punching Izana)

Problem - Zefra also mentioned this, This was just movement and not afterimage, we can also see that in the anime

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Aura (Fear-inducing - Made Taiju shiver in fear after getting up behind him with his aura)

Problem - Mikey just got up and Taiju heard it and got suprised that his best punch was nothing towards Mikey, There's no aura showned in the anime, no effects no anything that could resemble the ability, the manga is also super specific when there is supernatural stuff going on like the Dark Impulses illusions which obviously we have anything like that in that scene

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Empathic Manipulation (Talked to Kakucho and made him stronger aganist Takemichi)

Problem - Legit just by looking at the description of the ability, it says everything

The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation, but can sometimes be carried out in other ways (e.g., direct biochemical effects). Controlling emotions can be divided into manipulating positive and negative emotions. Also possible to use the absorption of emotions and their conversion into energy, as well as predicting the enemy's actions by comprehending their emotions.

Mikey only talked to Kakucho which is SI at best

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Limited Time Manipulation and Time Travel (By Shaking Takemichi's Hand, He Can Help Activate His Time Travel Ability)

Problem - Redundent, Time Travel already covers time manipulation, Zefra also mentioned this

Staff votes

Staff agrees -

Staff disagrees -

Staff neutral -

 

[Vzearr]

Hypermobility: The user is capable of performing extremely agile movements with their body that could cause pain or even notable injuries to the vast majority of other people under the same conditions, including surviving falls by simply maneuvering. - Mikey also doesn't fit this category

I think Mikey's signature kick falls under this, I've been training in martial arts for about 2 years now and I can't do his kick.

Information Analysis (Was brought to Sameyama by Draken and, with little information, realized he was being set up and caved in Sameyama's face to "overwhelm them all")

Problem - Mikey has no showing of analysis in this scene, this was pure guesswork and intuition at best, We do not see Mikey's logical process, nor is it stated that he knew he was being set up.

This is an argument from incredulity.

More over, in Mikey's perspective, they could've just wanted to hang out, Mikey out of nowhere just decided to jump them without even making sure he was actually being set up, or like, he did not think first before acting, he jumped to conclusions which turned out to be correct, that's all

He clearly analysed and figured out he was getting jumped.

Not only that, in a delinquents setting it's extremely likely that when older dudes calls for you isn't because they want to be friends, especially when they dont know you and your reputation is based on being someone who beat the shit out of everyone

Fair. You still have to analyse though.

We also have an anti-feat for analysis, which would be Valhala vs Toman, where Mikey failed to see through Kazutora's trap of making them fight in a bad footing.

Fair.

Accelerated Development (Passive: Abilities - At 4 years old, Mikey had already mastered his craft without practice according to Baji. He could already kick sealed caps off bottles with one try which means he develops his skill far faster than Baji does)

Problem - The problem with this, is that the justification implies Mikey gets better at martial arts by doing absolutely nothing and is growing with each second passing which obviously is not true

Reworked Version;

Accelerated Development (Training: Skill - At 4 years old, Mikey was already the best student in the dojo. He could already kick sealed caps off bottles with one try which means he develops his skill far faster than Baji does)

Fair.

Enhanced Pressure Points (Shown to aim for his opponent's temples, chins, nose bridges, necks and solar plexus)

Problem - There's nothing enhanced about this quantity =/= quality, for it to be enhanced we need stuff like, "get paralyzed with a touch", or "die by hitting a specific part", these obviously do not enhance anything

Fair.

Enhanced Social Influencing (Social Position and Reputation - President of the Tokyo Manji Gang, which is a gang that quickly became famous around Tokyo after beating another famous gang, 9th Generation Black Dragons, with just 6 members on their debut. Mikey is known around other gang leaders with big reputation with his nickname, "The Invincible Mikey" | Instigating Fear - Chifuyu stated that all Toman captains had an aura around them, especially Mikey, that made him shake in their presence. | Leadership - Capable of leading multiple gangs with hundreds of members throughout the series | Better Charisma - Mikey is blessed with unparalleled charisma, something noted by both insiders and rival delinquents, which allows him to maintain his crew in line and garner the respect of other gang leaders)

Problem - There's also nothing enhanced about this, Charisma isn't something that can be upgraded, Mikey's leadership is also lacking, all he did was increase moral and nothing else, he did it as a kid and his current self, higher numbers =/= better leadership when all he does is moral elevation

Fair.

Enhanced Senses (Enhanced Awareness - Noticed Mitsuya listening in on his conversation with Takemichi)

Problem - Zefra already mentioned this in Dino's CRT, Mikey saw and even mentioned that Mitsuya's hair was sticking out of the tree

I agree.

Vehicular Mastery (Voted as the 2nd best motorcycle rider in the series)

Problem - I am not so sure about this but, aren't you supposed to do some stunts that normally are hard, like in the movies where the guy jumps to a truck via ramp, or car, or even maneuvers like backflips with it? Mikey only has statements of being the 2nd best in the series without any showing of impressive feats on this, just him riding the bike

Not really.

Afterimage Creation (Created an afterimage while punching Izana)

Problem - Zefra also mentioned this, This was just movement and not afterimage, we can also see that in the anime

I'm pretty sure we still count it as after image creation still.

Aura (Fear-inducing - Made Taiju shiver in fear after getting up behind him with his aura)

Problem - Mikey just got up and Taiju heard it and got suprised that his best punch was nothing towards Mikey, There's no aura showned in the anime, no effects no anything that could resemble the ability, the manga is also super specific when there is supernatural stuff going on like the Dark Impulses illusions which obviously we have anything like that in that scene

Taiju shivered in fear, it's aura because Taiju didn't even see him, yet shivered in fear.

Empathic Manipulation (Talked to Kakucho and made him stronger aganist Takemichi)

Problem - Legit just by looking at the description of the ability, it says everything

The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation, but can sometimes be carried out in other ways (e.g., direct biochemical effects). Controlling emotions can be divided into manipulating positive and negative emotions. Also possible to use the absorption of emotions and their conversion into energy, as well as predicting the enemy's actions by comprehending their emotions.

Mikey only talked to Kakucho which is SI at best

I disagree he influenced the characters emotions.

This type of thread is good practise for my new position. No spoilers.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I think Mikey's signature kick falls under this, I've been training in martial arts for about 2 years now and I can't do his kick.

This is just pure flexibility, If you can do the split (i think that's what's it called), Then you should be capable

This is an argument from incredulity.

He clearly analysed and figured out he was getting jumped.

Fair. You still have to analyse though.

You don't, the moment a random delinquent looking kid (blond hair dye is pretty famous among delinquents) calls you to come with him, with you having a reputation of being a super strong dude, it's obvious that they want to beat you up

For info analysis, you need something that not even a IRL person can do it

Not something average as this

Not really.

I'm pretty sure we still count it as after image creation still.

We don't, the manga depicts this as just movement not after images

Taiju shivered in fear, it's aura because Taiju didn't even see him, yet shivered in fear.

He heard Mikey getting up and also saw the reaction of the dude infront of him who could see Mikey getting up

I disagree he influenced the characters emotions.

It needs to be supernatural, the description of the ability itself states that it is a product of mental manip or some kind of drug that affects bio stuff or whatever

Mikey just did it through conversation, which is SI

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Check these video copying his kick

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Part 1​

 

[Vzearr]

This is just pure flexibility, If you can do the split (i think that's what's it called), Then you should be capable

Most people aren't that flexible.

You don't, the moment a random delinquent looking kid (blond hair dye is pretty famous among delinquents) calls you to come with him, with you having a reputation of being a super strong dude, it's obvious that they want to beat you up

There are so many different scenarios so I disagree.

For info analysis, you need something that not even a IRL person can do it

Where does it say that.

We don't, the manga depicts this as just movement not after images

I'm unsure.

He heard Mikey getting up and also saw the reaction of the dude infront of him who could see Mikey getting up

If he heard Mikey getting up he would have reacted sooner.

It needs to be supernatural, the description of the ability itself states that it is a product of mental manip or some kind of drug that affects bio stuff or whatever

Where does it say that?

Mikey just did it through conversation, which is SI

That doesn't matter.

Will my calculations be put into question? I wonder.

 

[Vzearr]

Check these video copying his kick

None of these do it like how he does it lol. I disagree.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Most people aren't that flexible.

What he does is just average techniques that a martial artist knows

There are so many different scenarios so I disagree.

The only instant where he uses the so called "information analysis" in his kid key is legit this one

There is no other scenario

Where does it say that.

Powers and abilities in general, need to be always upper irl human limit, You don't just add something an average power can do it

I'm unsure.

How?

If he heard Mikey getting up he would have reacted sooner.

He was on top of a mattress which reduces sound when stepped on

Where does it say that?

"The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation, but can sometimes be carried out in other ways (e.g., direct biochemical effects). Controlling emotions can be divided into manipulating positive and negative emotions. Also possible to use the absorption of emotions and their conversion into energy, as well as predicting the enemy's actions by comprehending their emotions."

He ain't controlling any emotions here

That doesn't matter.

That literally does, He influenced him via SI, no super power used here

 

[Vzearr]

What he does is just average techniques that a martial artist knows

Not really, I tried it and can't get it exactly how he does it here.

The only instant where he uses the so called "information analysis" in his kid key is legit this one

That's not what I meant.

Powers and abilities in general, need to be always upper irl human limit, You don't just add something an average power can do it

Not necesarily.

How?

Fair.

He was on top of a mattress which reduces sound when stepped on

Why in gods heavens earth would a mattress be in a church.

"The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation, but can sometimes be carried out in other ways (e.g., direct biochemical effects). Controlling emotions can be divided into manipulating positive and negative emotions. Also possible to use the absorption of emotions and their conversion into energy, as well as predicting the enemy's actions by comprehending their emotions."

He ain't controlling any emotions here

He influencing his feeling to fight.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

None of these do it like how he does it lol. I disagree.

For it to be acrobatics, we need something more extreme

Like these examples

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Why in gods heavens earth would a mattress be in a church.

i forgot the name lol, the thing you have to clean off your shoes to not dirty the place

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Not really, I tried it and can't get it exactly how he does it here.

This is not complex at all, It's also not stated that this is also a "difficult move" to pull in verse

That's not what I meant.

I pointed out so may evidence and anti feats for his Info analysis

The anti feat itself should invalidate the ability

Mikey is the type to act before thinking like i said

Not necesarily.

So you can add info analysis, on a kid who says something so obvious as "this adult is stronger than me" while the adult looks like 7 feet Mike Tyson?

He influencing his feeling to fight.

Where is the power? You can do that via SI as well

As i said with Aura, the manga when it wants to show supernatural stuff, they are not shy on showing it

 

[Vzearr]

This is not complex at all, It's also not stated that this is also a "difficult move" to pull in verse

Not saying it's complex. I'm saying it's a difficult move to do completely correctly.

I pointed out so may evidence and anti feats for his Info analysis

You pointed out 1 piece of evidence.

The anti feat itself should invalidate the ability

Not necessarily.

Mikey is the type to act before thinking like i said

When did you say that.

So you can add info analysis, on a kid who says something so obvious as "this adult is stronger than me" while the adult looks like 7 feet Mike Tyson?

Kinda, according to the page.

Where is the power? You can do that via SI as well

Yes, that doesn't change anything.

i forgot the name lol, the thing you have to clean off your shoes to not dirty the place

Carpet? How does that invalidate aura?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Not saying it's complex. I'm saying it's a difficult move to do completely correctly.

Which still doesn't warrant acrobatics

You pointed out 1 piece of evidence.

Not necessarily.

When did you say that.

Kazutora anti feat, if Mikey can analyze stuff, Why did he fail to notice Kazutora's trap of making him go into a place where he cannot use his kicks correctly?

Kinda, according to the page.

No, that's literally just pointing out the obvious, that's no analysis

Yes, that doesn't change anything.

It does because you need supernaturality, Also, just wanted to mentioned, in no where of the scan it's showned that Kakucho got "stronger"

He just got up with motivation

Carpet? How does that invalidate aura?

Look, when the manga shows something supernatural, it always involves DI

We have plenty of evidence that supernatural stuff and effects only show when DI is active

Mikey was not in his DI state in this scene

 

[Vzearr]

Which still doesn't warrant acrobatics

Kinda does, it falls under hypermobility.

Kazutora anti feat, if Mikey can analyze stuff, Why did he fail to notice Kazutora's trap of making him go into a place where he cannot use his kicks correctly?

Heat of the moment, fast paced, he was angry, not in his right state of mind. Many things.

It does because you need supernaturality, Also, just wanted to mentioned, in no where of the scan it's showned that Kakucho got "stronger"

Where are you getting this supernaturally thing.

He just got up with motivation

After he was talked to by Mikey, Mikey influenced his feelings which is what the ability is.

Look, when the manga shows something supernatural, it always involves DI

Okay?

We have plenty of evidence that supernatural stuff and effects only show when DI is active

Something doesn't need to have tentacles to be supernatural.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Kinda does, it falls under hypermobility.

I'm pretty sure i showed you videos of people doing it

You not being able to do it doesn't mean others can't

Heat of the moment, fast paced, he was angry, not in his right state of mind. Many things.

And? He acts before he thinks, like i said, this is legit just another evidence for this anti feat

Where are you getting this supernaturally thing.

After he was talked to by Mikey, Mikey influenced his feelings which is what the ability is.

What Mikey is doing is just guilt tripping him, it's legit just coercion SI

Okay?

Something doesn't need to have tentacles to be supernatural.

It's legit aura, DI shows aura

The manga or anime do not show anything that can be remotely close to the ability

This is aura

Just look at the definition of the ability;

The ability to have energy envelop the user. It can be used (consciously or subconsciously) for various purposes (such as intimidation). This covers supernatural abilities only, natural effects fall under Social Influencing.

 

[Vzearr]

I'm pretty sure i showed you videos of people doing it

None of them did it correctly lol.

You not being able to do it doesn't mean others can't

Never claimed that.

And? He acts before he thinks, like i said, this is legit just another evidence for this anti feat

Fair

What Mikey is doing is just guilt tripping him, it's legit just coercion SI

Still influencing feelings. Textbook defintion.

It's legit aura, DI shows aura

And?

The manga or anime do not show anything that can be remotely close to the ability

This is aura

Just look at the definition of the ability;

The ability to have energy envelop the user. It can be used (consciously or subconsciously) for various purposes (such as intimidation). This covers supernatural abilities only, natural effects fall under Social Influencing.

It's not a natural effect.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Still influencing feelings. Textbook defintion.

Textbook definition of SI, you are basically saying that any character with coercion has automatically empathy manip which is false

And?

It's not a natural effect.

Where is the aura enveloping Mikey?

"The ability to have energy envelop the user"

 

[Vzearr]

Textbook definition of SI, you are basically saying that any character with coercion has automatically empathy manip which is false

Not necessarily.

Where is the aura enveloping Mikey?

"The ability to have energy envelop the user"

This is fair, I guess my thought process was that the energy enveloping him was there as he scared Taiju without Taiju looking at him.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Not necessarily.

Before anything else

Do you think in the scan that Kakucho is super weak (Knocked down basically) and that Mikey makes him get up as if nothing happened?

Explain how do you see this scene real quick

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Kakucho just took 1 punch and got dazed for a while

Mikey just got there and guilt tripped out of nowhere lol

He got up as if nothing happened because he legit just took 1 punch, obviously he was still full of energy and stuff

 

[RoggerReggor]

Agree with everything else except...

What Mikey is doing here, even a normal person who practises martial arts can do it, and this does not fit the criteria for the hypermobility as those moves don't cause pain or injuries

I would say agree with this. But I do not support the removal of this ability fully.

I think feats from the final arc like this (the feat is from Chapter 262 by the way) should justify the adjustment with this ability. We see Mikey showing an extremely agile circular moment, which spans over a couple of meters, and he takes down a number of people with it.

We also have an anti-feat for analysis, which would be Valhala vs Toman, where Mikey failed to see through Kazutora's trap of making them fight in a bad footing.

This feat would prove that Mikey when he is a kid was smarter than what he is currently which is false ain't it?

No, Mikey actually canonically became less perceptive around him with increasing time lol. He narratively has negative emotional management, so I am against this being an argument.

Vehicular Mastery (Voted as the 2nd best motorcycle rider in the series)

Problem - I am not so sure about this but, aren't you supposed to do some stunts that normally are hard, like in the movies where the guy jumps to a truck via ramp, or car, or even maneuvers like backflips with it? Mikey only has statements of being the 2nd best in the series without any showing of impressive feats on this, just him riding the bike

Narratives do support this, plus, even riders like Taiju have feats of jumping from running bike, Hanma has feats like jumping mid-bike. So yeah, they still do stunts and are confident to do so. Mikey would simply upscale them.

Afterimage Creation (Created an afterimage while punching Izana)

Problem - Zefra also mentioned this, This was just movement and not afterimage, we can also see that in the anime

(I am really replying to this thread for this lol, I agree with this, but I would want this get cleared up.)

I'm pretty sure we still count it as after image creation still.

We need to take Afterimage Creation more seriously to be honest. THE ANIME DOESN'T SHOW ANY AFTERIMAGE CREATION EITHER.

This is simply a motion blur. Afterimage Creation should show still images staying for at least some time being, and other characters at least mentioning it out loud, or doing things like attacking the afterimage or something.

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I agree with the conclusion reached by you both for Aura and Empathic Manipulation as well.

 

[Dinozxd]

I disagree with everything presented in the CRT other than the removal of After image Creation and the Enhanced parts of Pressure Points and Social Influencing and changing Empathic Manipulation to Social Influencing. I will comment about the other stuff when I have time.