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Michael Demiurgos vs Molecule Man
- Thread starter JackJoyce
- Start date
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Well yeah but
Lucifer>=michal>destiny>glory of the first sycle>the basanos>full potential specter>father time>=mother night>death of the endless>dream of the endless(baseline)
Lucifer>=michal>destiny>glory of the first sycle>the basanos>full potential specter>father time>=mother night>death of the endless>dream of the endless(baseline)
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Dream isn't baseline. At worst he's a bit above baseline.
Deleted member 2530
Guest
Molecule Man wins because apparently dimensions don't matter, scaling doesn't matter and feats don't matter. All it matters is that he is a 1A who fought beyonder who is beyond all dimensions because he says that he came from a place which is beyond Marvel Multiverse. Ofcourse, I am outside of a small hut but when it is reconstructed into a 40 storied building I am still stronger than it because I am outside of it. For the answer, Dream is above baseline. Infact, Dram is responsible for dark multiverse, his infinite books in luciens library are all multiverses.
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IIRC both Mother Night and Father Time were stated to be above their children, and I imagine Destiny is no exception.
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Well that makes o It even worse dosen't it?EmperorRorepme said:
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Well he ia older the both night and time since he manafested when presence started creating the multiverse but im not sure if he still counts as one of their children
As to why i have him higher then mother night and father time is the basanos a small fragment of destiny that was able to fight and win against lucifer(although no through sheer power but through true godly and all knowing which dose prove that hqx do matter in a 1A fight) and the fact that neither lucifer nor Michal are outside destiny's power And i highly doubt either night or time could even put up a fight against lucifer.
As fir glory eh i just put him there cuse i don't know his power and just assymed where he'd be you can move him anywhere on that scale
As to why i have him higher then mother night and father time is the basanos a small fragment of destiny that was able to fight and win against lucifer(although no through sheer power but through true godly and all knowing which dose prove that hqx do matter in a 1A fight) and the fact that neither lucifer nor Michal are outside destiny's power And i highly doubt either night or time could even put up a fight against lucifer.
As fir glory eh i just put him there cuse i don't know his power and just assymed where he'd be you can move him anywhere on that scale
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Time and Night predated The Presence. The Presence was created by "external forces" which is the collective dreams of mankind. There have been previous versions of Creation, Creations which have different Gods.
This is going to be very long but we dont have any proof of the Presence being stronger than Father time and Mother Night much less Lucifer.
There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .
"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"
There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"
The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation
"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"
"Except our sister"
1
"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers
2
"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
In the Void, you see these Creations as seperate, but these Creations are just different version of the same thing and since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously
You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void
"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus"
Mother Night and Father Time not only predates all versions of Creation but is also the cause of it. Without them there wont be creation at all, or any of its creator
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NlftnssnOPM/VkINqNvIITI/AAAAAAAAPBQ/Ef_u3urAe1g/s0-Ic42/004.jpg
"Before the beginning was the night. And the night was without boundaries and the night was without end. In the beginning was time. The relentless beat in which things could happe, in which everything could become, dust could coalesce, matter could exist. In that coming together, the universe was possible, all versions of it. In it, people could dream and die. In it, stars burned and flared and went out."
This is going to be very long but we dont have any proof of the Presence being stronger than Father time and Mother Night much less Lucifer.
There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .
"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"
There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"
The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation
"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"
"Except our sister"
1
"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers
2
"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
In the Void, you see these Creations as seperate, but these Creations are just different version of the same thing and since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously
You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void
"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus"
Mother Night and Father Time not only predates all versions of Creation but is also the cause of it. Without them there wont be creation at all, or any of its creator
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NlftnssnOPM/VkINqNvIITI/AAAAAAAAPBQ/Ef_u3urAe1g/s0-Ic42/004.jpg
"Before the beginning was the night. And the night was without boundaries and the night was without end. In the beginning was time. The relentless beat in which things could happe, in which everything could become, dust could coalesce, matter could exist. In that coming together, the universe was possible, all versions of it. In it, people could dream and die. In it, stars burned and flared and went out."
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Presence>Micheal>=Lucifer>Destiny>Certain Angels>Endless.
The Endless are just facets that make up multiple creations. Architects of Creations should be superior to them.
The Endless are just facets that make up multiple creations. Architects of Creations should be superior to them.
Deleted member 2530
Guest
He never says that he was created by external forces but shaped. Infact, when he first was seen he was nothing more than a faceless being with no identity apart from the fact that he just was. He saw his creations as tools nothing more but human ixeas and dreams just made him more human. He sae Lucifer and Michael as his sons. He no longer appeared as a being of pure energy but like a human old man, that most believe what god looks like. To say he was 'created' is plain wrong.Sandman31 said:
Deleted member 2530
Guest
During first war Michael was badly wounded and imprisoned for billions whereas Lucifer became a king. Later on Lucifer kills Michael twice once when he was weakened. So apart from some claims about Michael being equal to Lucifer there is no definitive proof to even suggest Michael>Lucifer at all. Even Dream calls Lucifer the second strongest after God not Michael.EmperorRorepme said:
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Not my word, Mike Carey himself said to look at The Sandmans Dream of a Thousand Cats and that we created gods in our own image and this is supported by the cosmology of DC/Vertigo
He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"
- The Sandman: Book of Dreams
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"I mean all of it. Humans make up bullshit stories about where they came from and where they're going.And they live in them. They turn the whole of eternity into a ******* soap opera. Reality is messy and scary. Stories give a kind of shape to it"
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"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Yahweh isnt even the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers
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"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"
He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"
- The Sandman: Book of Dreams
1
"I mean all of it. Humans make up bullshit stories about where they came from and where they're going.And they live in them. They turn the whole of eternity into a ******* soap opera. Reality is messy and scary. Stories give a kind of shape to it"
1
"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Yahweh isnt even the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers
2
"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"
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Immortalgodd: He no longer appeared as a being of pure energy but like a human old man, that most believe what god looks like. To say he was 'created' is plain wrong.
This is just plain wrong. The reason why he appeared as a human old man was because that is the form that Elaine is comfortable with, prior to that he appeared to Elaine as Gaudium and as her mom. It has nothing to do with dreams or what humans believe in, and also I doubt that most people believe god looks like that, an old bearded man yes, but not an old man with mustouche, bowler hat and wering a suit.
This is just plain wrong. The reason why he appeared as a human old man was because that is the form that Elaine is comfortable with, prior to that he appeared to Elaine as Gaudium and as her mom. It has nothing to do with dreams or what humans believe in, and also I doubt that most people believe god looks like that, an old bearded man yes, but not an old man with mustouche, bowler hat and wering a suit.
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Sandman31
Well holy shit talk about a paragrqaph of pointing out how wrong i was
I just whent of the general consenses that precense lucifer and michal were above time and night But gess i was wrong
Ok so let me change my scaling a bit
Mother night=father time>=< presence>lucifer>=michal>destiny>basanos>gabreial>glory of the first circle>death>dream
Well holy shit talk about a paragrqaph of pointing out how wrong i was
I just whent of the general consenses that precense lucifer and michal were above time and night But gess i was wrong
Ok so let me change my scaling a bit
Mother night=father time>=< presence>lucifer>=michal>destiny>basanos>gabreial>glory of the first circle>death>dream
Deleted member 2530
Guest
Mother Night and Father Time are not greater than the Presence.
Deleted member 2530
Guest
Not really. The creator gods have been revealed to be Perpetua and the monitors who are still below the presence. There is literally nothing to suggest that the Endless or Night or Time are superior to the Brothers let alone the Presence. He was referring to other gods that are born in Dreams realm not the Presence. I think in one of the storyline the void itself was a part of the Presence.
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No. The Creator Gods were not Perpetua or the monitors. This was in Mike Careys Lucifer run and they even directly mentioned the Presence. Even Mike Carey confirmed that the Presence was created by the dreams of mankind. There have Creations that exiated before The Presence himselfImmortalgodd said:
"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"
Other Makers other than the Presence
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"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"
Beings from earlier creations that were not shaped by God
"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous
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@Immortal The only thing worth addressing in that earlier reply of yours is the fact that what Lucifer observed had nothing to do with the cosmology of creation but only his own perception. He later goes on to witness the Big bang in the vastness of the Void as it happens within moments when you're observing it from the void itself. What Lucifer perceived had nothing to do with the birth and death cycle of creation which he goes on to observe later in the issue
PS- Hyku has read the comic
PS- Hyku has read the comic
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Michael easily
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Necroooooooo!
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Michael = 1A
Molecule Man Pre-retcon = high 1B
Michael Demiurgos shit stomp
Molecule Man Pre-retcon = high 1B
Michael Demiurgos shit stomp
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This was before the revisions
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Not that I'm complaining, but when did most of Marvel's 1-A get downgraded to High 1-B and why?EmperorDoom25 said:
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It was done by Keppley in a revision thread downgrading all the Marvel 1-A's with the exception of Oblivion
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Michael (1A) can easily take PR Beyonder and Molecule Man (High 1B) at the same time, due to far superior scaling in DC Cosmology
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This should be closed. Even if both Beyonder and Molecule Man were still 1-A, Michael would stomp them both since he's way above baseline.
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