MHA AP and Durability Upgrades

[TheRustyOne]

Note: I agree that it seems weird, It's unfortunate most of the students lack any feats to my knowledge.

Also the students becoming that stronger via training shouldn't be a problem, since I'm use to DBS scaling so I'm pretty numb to the idea. So even if they were 9-A, jumping up to 8-C+ or High 8-C isn't a real problem.

The only other feat they really have are the land mines, if we divide the power of Izuku's explosion by the number of mines (I count 10). Each individual mine is 9-A or 0.036 tons, which is very consistent with Ochako's durability calc actually (0.032 Tons).

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So does the fact that base Deku actually has High 8-C durability in early manga mean anything to this discussion. Because he does.

 

[Therefir]

Deku survived a hit from a very angry Bakugo at the Final Exams, why didn't he exploded in pulp of blood if he was 9-A?

 

[TheRustyOne]

So does the fact that base Deku actually has High 8-C durability in early manga mean anything to this discussion. Because he does.

I though we were talking about 8-C+, not High 8-C.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

he didn't just take a direct hit, it didn't even break his arm. It just hurt him. That's scaling.

Being hurt by explosions don't matter because we've decided the heat does the damage.

So Base Deku scales to around 3 ton Bakugo. Shinso hurt that Deku. Shinso is physically weaker than Deku, but can still harm him. Rest of UA should be comparable to Shinso. Everyone is around 3 tons. Nothing is strange.

 

[TheRustyOne]

When did Izuku take hits from a fully serious Bakugo.

Because in their first fight Bakugo stated he was going to hold back.

 

[Damage3245]

Deku survived a hit from a very angry Bakugo at the Final Exams, why didn't he exploded in pulp of blood if he was 9-A?

Are you talking about where Bakugo just slapped him because he was angry?

 

[Therefir]

Do I have to remind everyone that the explosion that Uraraka survived is bigger than the one Bakugo used to push 8% Deku away?

Or that the explosion he used to defeat Kirishima was Wall level sized?

Why do we keep bringing his explosions into the table when we already know they are inconsistent?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I though we were talking about 8-C+, not High 8-C.

Therefir was talking about downscaling him to 8-C+. I think he just downscales to baseline High 8-C and then everyone scales off that. If he's less than Bakugo's 3 ton feat, than his statement of 5% being not a huge increase, with its feat being near 5 tons, isn't strange at all.

When did Izuku take hits from a fully serious Bakugo.

Because in their first fight Bakugo stated he was going to hold back.

Bakugo stopped holding back when Deku made him mad after throwing him, idk where him holding back became an argument when he was fully willing to use his strongest attacks even if they potentially could kill him.

Are you talking about where Bakugo just slapped him because he was angry?

That was not a slap, it was specifically his "right hook" which he clearly put a lot of force into.

He also has hit Deku with it several times before. Meaning Deku has constantly been hurt by Bakugo and not died. If you want to claim those hits were casual, the hit he took in the test was definitely not since Bakugo was trying to literally beat him into the ground and kill him.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

We can't even say Ochako scales to that explosion, because we decided that Bakugo deals damage through heat not force. If we scaled her to that, we would have to scale Deku to Bakugo's wall level explosions.

 

[TheRustyOne]

He never aimed his strongest attack against Izuku, he stated he wasn't going to hit him. He was trying to scare him into using his Quirk. Even All Might noticed that Bakugo was still sane despite how he was acting, he was going to hurt Izuku but not enough that they'd have to stop the fight.

That heat thing is really annoying me right now, since Nitroglycerine heat doesn't last long enough. Nor does Bakugo have any way of controlling the heat of his explosion, they should remain the same no matter what he does. So that means characters like Uraraka have the same level of heat resistance as Kirishima.

How is that not absurd?

 

[Earthyboy]

8-C+ to me already seems sketchy, but High 8-C seems to be pushing it.

 

[Therefir]

That heat thing is really annoying me right now, since Nitroglycerine heat doesn't last long enough.

Bakugo's explosions does seem to last longer than they should, and they always burn people caught by the fireball, even from a distance, so they clearly contain a high temperature.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

He never aimed his strongest attack against Izuku, he stated he wasn't going to hit him. He was trying to scare him into using his Quirk. Even All Might noticed that Bakugo was still sane despite how he was acting, he was going to hurt Izuku but not enough that they'd have to stop the fight.

That heat thing is really annoying me right now, since Nitroglycerine heat doesn't last long enough. Nor does Bakugo have any way of controlling the heat of his explosion, they should remain the same no matter what he does. So that means characters like Uraraka have the same level of heat resistance as Kirishima.

How is that not absurd?

He said it wouldn't kill him if he dodged, not that he wouldn't hit him with it. And right after that, he thought Deku was still looking down on him by still not using his quirk and ignoring him, so he had even less reason to not hit Deku with his full force. Unless you believe he held back when he hit Deku with his "right hook" and slammed him into the ground while propelling himself with his explosions. He was sane in his rage in the sense that he was trying to make a point, which was that he's better than Deku, not that he was trying to go easy on him to not hurt him too bad.

I also hate heat. We should change it. It is a terrible thought process.

8-C+ to me already seems sketchy, but High 8-C seems to be pushing it.

The problem isn't even the tiering, its how we scale people at all. So we need to figure that out first, and i'm just pointing out the logical consistencies we have to follow if we go with what we're saying.


Current presented issue: Deku takes damage from Bakugo Physically and from his explosions. He survives both with injuries but ok. Why.

 

[TheRustyOne]

He said it wouldn't kill him if he dodged, not that he wouldn't hit him with it.

That's the english dub, which is wrong. He never says that in the japanese sub, "If I don't hit him he won't die!"

Manga: "If it's not a direct hit he won't die!"

 

[TheRustyOne]

Bakugo's explosions does seem to last longer than they should, and they always burn people caught by the fireball, even from a distance, so they clearly contain a high temperature.

The so called burns are pretty insignificant, remember the way Bakugo's Quirk's work he shouldn't be able to change their temperature even if he makes the blast smaller. Kirishima suffered big burns because Bakugo unleashed a barrage of blows on him which makes sense, he was in contact for that heat for a lot longer.

In terms of temperature, Bakugo's explosions would have to be at least 200 degrees Celsius to produce fire and burn. Since we aren't giving the entire verse 5000 degree heat resistance, right?

 

[Therefir]

Didn't Deku survived Dabi's blue flames with minor burns as well?

 

[Therefir]

Current presented issue: Deku takes damage from Bakugo Physically and from his explosions. He survives both with injuries but ok. Why.

Bakugo was holding himself back hundreds of times, of course.

But seriously, I think we should just probably leave Bakugo aside from the scaling, as Deku has his own feats and statements to support his 8-C+ rating.

 

[Damage3245]

Deku takes damage from Bakugo Physically and from his explosions. He survives both with injuries but ok.

Most of the time Deku is never hit directly by any big explosion. The only one I can think of us the end of the big fight with Bakugo, and I think that calc has some issues.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

That's the english dub, which is wrong. He never says that in the japanese sub, "If I don't hit him he won't die!"

Manga: "If it's not a direct hit he won't die!"

So he's essentially torturing Midoriya in order to get him to use his quirk, and gets angrier each time he doesn't use it. That does not give a reason for him to hold back, especially since he's angrier than he's ever been in the manga at that point. His "calm" is literally that he's going to beat Deku into a pulp but not kill him, not that he's gonna hold back. He literally says right after using his gauntlet that he wants to crush Deku at his strongest, so why would he be holding back if he's trying to force him to be at his strongest. Unless we believe Bakugo is incapable of KO'ing people.

The so called burns are pretty insignificant, remember the way Bakugo's Quirk's work he shouldn't be able to change their temperature even if he makes the blast smaller. Kirishima suffered big burns because Bakugo unleashed a barrage of blows on him which makes sense, he was in contact for that heat for a lot longer.

In terms of temperature, Bakugo's explosions would have to be at least 200 degrees Celsius to produce fire and burn. Since we aren't giving the entire verse 5000 degree heat resistance, right?

Kirishima got burns from one explosion, the very first one we see from their fight on panel. So that would imply Kirishima has inferior heat resistance than Ochako in hardened state. lul.

Most of the time Deku is never hit directly by any big explosion. The only one I can think of us the end of the big fight with Bakugo, and I think that calc has some issues.

We're talking about the very first fight in the Heroes vs Villains fight, before Deku has 5%. The one where Bakugo flips over Deku's head and blasts him directly with an explosion that hurts him a lot. And then blasts him with another explosion near the end point blank that helps knock him out.

 

[Damage3245]

Kingofwolves, what about those explosions? Those explosions are quite small.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Kingofwolves, what about those explosions? Those explosions are quite small.

They aren't the issue. Bakugo slamming into Deku in order to physically hurt him is. Because if we say Explosions neg dura, so everyone not scaling to 5% is 9-A, than deku should have been one shot by bakugo hitting him, since Bakugo is physically high 8-C.

How did Deku survive a hit from Bakugo physically, when Bakugo isn't holding back hundreds of times his ap, if he's only 9-A.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Before someone claims outlier, Bakugo hits him again when he and Deku are going to fight All Might. And he's been beating Deku up for literal years at this point. It would make no sense for Deku to not be capable of taking serious hits from Bakugo.

 

[Earthyboy]

What's the current discussion revolving around? Getting Deku's base to High 8-C?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

What's the current discussion revolving around? Getting Deku's base to High 8-C?

Why he can take hits from Bakugo at all if he's supposedly 9-A.

 

[Earthyboy]

Why he can take hits from Bakugo at all if he's supposedly 9-A.

That's because Bakugo is holding back against him with his explosions. Like it's even stated that his strongest explosion would be similar to his grenade bracers, and those had enough AP to actually kill Deku. There's a lot of evidence of Bakugo holding back against him.

 

[Therefir]

The Grenadier Bracers are High 8-C+, they are not a point against 8-C+ Deku.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

That's because Bakugo is holding back against him with his explosions. Like it's even stated that his strongest explosion would be similar to his grenade bracers, and those had enough AP to actually kill Deku. There's a lot of evidence of Bakugo holding back against him.

Ok, so what does that mean for when he physically slammed into Deku's arm and was, ver batim, attempting to establish that Deku will always be beneath him. Why would he be holding back in that specific instance of physical contact.

Also there's the issue of Bakugo being capable of holding back by hundreds of times his AP AT ALL, let alone pissed off.

Something that has never been implied, and is actually something he DESIGNED the AP Shot to do for him.

 

[Earthyboy]

The Grenadier Bracers are High 8-C+, they are not a point against 8-C+ Deku.

I was only using them as an example to say he was holding back.

 

[Earthyboy]

Ok, so what does that mean for when he physically slammed into Deku's arm and was, ver batim, attempting to establish that Deku will always be beneath him. Why would he be holding back in that specific instance of physical contact.

Also there's the issue of Bakugo being capable of holding back by hundreds of times his AP AT ALL, let alone pissed off.

Something that has never been implied, and is actually something he DESIGNED the AP Shot to do for him.

It's very obvious that Bakugo wasn't using his full power against Deku by just realizing that he never even used some of his huger explosions. Here's a question: if he doesn't use his maximum power (his bigger explosions or his grenade bracers) what would that mean? That he'd be holding back.

You can also assume the same thing physically because a punch from Bakugo at full strength is enough to send 5% careening away towards guard rail. If he had done the same thing against Deku's Base, Deku would've either been knocked out or at least damaged enough to not even retaliate. Deku's base strength isn't even enough to stun him for like a second. It'd be ridiculous to say his Base is baseline High 8-C.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

It's very obvious that Bakugo wasn't using his full power against Deku by just realizing that he never even used some of his huger explosions. Here's a question: if he doesn't use his maximum power (his bigger explosions or his grenade bracers) what would that mean? That he'd be holding back.

You can also assume the same thing physically because a punch from Bakugo at full strength is enough to send 5% careening away towards guard rail. If he had done the same thing against Deku's Base, Deku would've either been knocked out or at least damaged enough to not even retaliate. Deku's base strength isn't even enough to stun him for like a second. It'd be ridiculous to say his Base is baseline High 8-C.

Except by Deku's own admission, 5% isn't a huge increase from his base. So it is more consistent that Base Deku can take hits from Bakugo than it isn't. Also, that Bakugo was after training and increasing his strength by a decent margin, not fresh into UA Bakugo who's best feat was around 3 tons.

Not enough to stun him for a second? Base Deku has never hit Bakugo, you can't make that claim. The throw he did wasn't reliant on his AP. It isn't ridiculous for his base to be High 8-C since he'd be downscaling from his 5% and a feat of taking a physical hit from Bakugo.

The only reason 9-A is even being entertained for scaling students is because of them getting hit with Bakugo's explosions, which deal damage via durability ignoring heat not force, and the villain bot armor, which might not even be applied due to the mines being nonconventional.

So as it stands, we have no calcs that definitively put any character at 9-A. We do however have calcs, statements and reason to suspect characters downscale from our High 8-C calcs. So I'm saying that it would be logically consistent to do that rather than have Ojiro be capable of one shotting Deku with ease, and for there to be a DIRECT contradiction between Deku's statement and his feats.

If everyone downscales from high 8-c, what issues arise when it comes to scaling. I would like to hear them.

 

[Earthyboy]

@Kingofwolves999 Some statements from the manga need to brought to light.
"One on one... I still can't measure up...!!"
"You're nothing compared to me!!"
"Damn. I can't dodge!"
"I'll mess you up just enough to not be disqualified!!"
"He's stronger than me in every way."

Deku himself admitted twice that he can't even rival, let alone measure up Bakugo, with Bakugo even taunting that he's nothing compared to him. All of this implies that Base Deku is completely powerless against Bakugo, with him also admitting that Bakugo is stronger than him in every category.

The sheer recoil from Bakugo's grenade bracers manages to dislocate Deku's shoulder while Bakugo's is fine from the recoil. Once again proving how Bakugo is much more physically stronger than Deku to the point that he's not even affected by things that can moderately. damage Deku's base.

It took a total of three small scale explosions from Bakugo for Deku to get knocked out. Three small explosions. Keep in mind these explosions aren't even 8-C. One of the explosions Bakugo used against Deku wasn't calculated at even 9-A, but rather 9-B.

So explain to me how Deku is heavily damaged by explosions that can be proven to not even be 9-A, but can supposedly withstand High 8-C level physical hits from Bakugo with only some damage? This would be a basic example of an outlier. (The gap between an 8-C and 9-B would be enough to kill someone mind you.) There's more stuff that proves Deku should be nowhere close to High 8-C but that doesn't need mentioning at the moment.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

@Kingofwolves999 Some statements from the manga need to brought to light.
"One on one... I still can't measure up...!!"
"You're nothing compared to me!!"
"Damn. I can't dodge!"
"I'll mess you up just enough to not be disqualified!!"
"He's stronger than me in every way."

Deku himself admitted twice that he can't even rival, let alone measure up Bakugo, with Bakugo even taunting that he's nothing compared to him. All of this implies that Base Deku is completely powerless against Bakugo, with him also admitting that Bakugo is stronger than him in every category.

The sheer recoil from Bakugo's grenade bracers manages to dislocate Deku's shoulder while Bakugo's is fine from the recoil. Once again proving how Bakugo is much more physically stronger than Deku to the point that he's not even affected by things that can moderately. damage Deku's base.

It took a total of three small scale explosions from Bakugo for Deku to get knocked out. Three small explosions. Keep in mind these explosions aren't even 8-C. One of the explosions Bakugo used against Deku wasn't calculated at even 9-A, but rather 9-B.

So explain to me how Deku is heavily damaged by explosions that can be proven to not even be 9-A, but can supposedly withstand High 8-C level physical hits from Bakugo with only some damage? This would be a basic example of an outlier. (The gap between an 8-C and 9-B would be enough to kill someone mind you.) There's more stuff that proves Deku should be nowhere close to High 8-C but that doesn't need mentioning at the moment.

Deku has an inferiority complex when it comes to Bakugo, and even when he gains 5% he believes himself incapable of reaching Bakugo’s level until their fight. EVERYONE finds Bakugo overwhelming and powerful, even All Might. Deku is stating facts when he says Bakugo is superior to him. That DOES NOT mean he can’t downscale from him.

Not being able to win a fight does not mean you cannot survive attacks or scale to a character. You do not need to be able to one shot someone or tank their attacks in order to scale to them. Your understanding of scaling is skewed if you don’t realize that. Bakugo can be superior to Deku and Deku can still scale to him. If the gap is even just 2x this makes perfect sense, especially when factoring in how Bakugo is more skilled than Deku.

Base Deku being hurt by the recoil of Bakugo’s gauntlet PROVES my point that he downscales. If he was 9-A, he would have been blown all the way down the street and hurt far worse. Instead, since his durability is lower than the Gauntlet but not so low it one shots him, he is hurt but can keep going.

Being hurt by an attack but still being able to keep going, outside of extreme situations, is grounds for scaling yourself to that attack. You do not have to tank attacks with zero damage to scale to them. A normal person can dislocate another person’s arm by pulling hard enough, that does not make them superior to that person to a level they would one shot that person. The gauntlet reduced the force yet Base Deku’s arm was dislocated, therefore he downscales from the gauntlets full power more than Bakugo does. If he is baseline High 8-c, this makes perfect sense, as Bakugo would be almost 2x him and able to withstand it better.

Bakugo’s explosions ignore durability. That is what we have established. The calcs for them are irrelevant, since we can attribute all damage done by them to heat rather than force. That explains how All Might felt pain from them, how Deku can be hurt by wall level ones, how Ochako can take multiple 9-A ones, how Tokoyami can take 9-A ones and how Kirishima can literally tank them with no damage until too many hit him (His heat resistance).

Bakugo’s explosions prove nothing. They hurt almost every character. Size is irrelevant since the heat is the source of damage. That is how Uraraka can take multiple 9-A explosions, yet Deku can be hurt by wall level ones. The damage is the same regardless of size. Deku being yet by the wall level ones don’t mean anything for his physical durability since that isn’t the main damage of the explosions.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

All Bakugo calcs are irrelevant except the highest ones we scale his physicals to.

Scaling his physicals to them is consistent since he can take hits from 5% who is also high 8-C, the statement that he has to withstand the full force of his explosions, the fact that base Deku, who is weaker than Bakugo physically but can take hits from him, has his shoulder dislocated despite the gauntlet reducing force, and that he can keep up with higher percentages of Deku.

Arguments based on his smaller explosions are negated by him being able to ignore durability.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Not necessarily disagreeing with all the scaling and calcs but why did so many High 8C calcs come out of the blue (some are for already calculated feats). Did our destruction values change or something?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Not necessarily disagreeing with all the scaling and calcs but why did so many High 8C calcs come out of the blue (some are for already calculated feats). Did our destruction values change or something?

I have no idea

 

[Earthyboy]

Deku has an inferiority complex when it comes to Bakugo, and even when he gains 5% he believes himself incapable of reaching Bakugo’s level until their fight. EVERYONE finds Bakugo overwhelming and powerful, even All Might. Deku is stating facts when he says Bakugo is superior to him. That DOES NOT mean he can’t downscale from him.

Not being able to win a fight does not mean you cannot survive attacks or scale to a character. You do not need to be able to one shot someone or tank their attacks in order to scale to them. Your understanding of scaling is skewed if you don’t realize that. Bakugo can be superior to Deku and Deku can still scale to him. If the gap is even just 2x this makes perfect sense, especially when factoring in how Bakugo is more skilled than Deku.

Base Deku being hurt by the recoil of Bakugo’s gauntlet PROVES my point that he downscales. If he was 9-A, he would have been blown all the way down the street and hurt far worse. Instead, since his durability is lower than the Gauntlet but not so low it one shots him, he is hurt but can keep going.

Being hurt by an attack but still being able to keep going, outside of extreme situations, is grounds for scaling yourself to that attack. You do not have to tank attacks with zero damage to scale to them. A normal person can dislocate another person’s arm by pulling hard enough, that does not make them superior to that person to a level they would one shot that person. The gauntlet reduced the force yet Base Deku’s arm was dislocated, therefore he downscales from the gauntlets full power more than Bakugo does. If he is baseline High 8-c, this makes perfect sense, as Bakugo would be almost 2x him and able to withstand it better.

Bakugo’s explosions ignore durability. That is what we have established. The calcs for them are irrelevant, since we can attribute all damage done by them to heat rather than force. That explains how All Might felt pain from them, how Deku can be hurt by wall level ones, how Ochako can take multiple 9-A ones, how Tokoyami can take 9-A ones and how Kirishima can literally tank them with no damage until too many hit him (His heat resistance).

Bakugo’s explosions prove nothing. They hurt almost every character. Size is irrelevant since the heat is the source of damage. That is how Uraraka can take multiple 9-A explosions, yet Deku can be hurt by wall level ones. The damage is the same regardless of size. Deku being yet by the wall level ones don’t mean anything for his physical durability.

Deku surviving the recoil of the explosion does not mean he can downscale from it. When you fire a gun, do you withstand the force behind the bullet being launched? Recoil doesn't equal strength/durability, with small exceptions being made. Even if we ignore what I'm saying, Bakugo is capable of firing off his gauntlets with nothing happening to his arm, while Deku's arm is dislocated. This basically translates to Bakugo's durability being so far above Base Deku's that it's basically incomparable.

I disagree with Bakugo's explosions ignoring durability. If that would be the case, Deku would not have been launched back by the force of his explosions in some of the panels. They still pack force and have a TNT value, but they also can negate durability. (slightly) If his explosions were mainly durability negation through heat, then there would be no TNT value or AP from them at all.

Have you ever considered why Bakugo's explosions hurt characters even when they're so small? It's not like the heat aspect of them disappears when the AP is really minuscule, not even close.

Ignoring all of this, Deku's Base still ain't High 8-C. Bakugo was trying to prolong his match against Deku to crush him at his strongest. Even All Might noticed this. This is basically concrete evidence that Bakugo's holding back, by a lot. He at one point states this, "I'll mess you up just enough to not be disqualified!!" Once again, supporting my point.

 

[Earthyboy]

I suggest that if anyone wants to argue to 8-C+ Base Deku along with High 8-C, we put it in a CRT. The purpose of this CRT has mostly been served and the rating for Deku's base can be decided later.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I suggest that if anyone wants to argue to 8-C+ Base Deku along with High 8-C, we put it in a CRT. The purpose of this CRT has mostly been served and the rating for Deku's base can be decided later.

This CRT can actually serve for base Deku’s rating as I brought it up in the OP and that still constitutes a multiplier.

I’d like to ask, did we ever get a blatant statement that Bakugou experiences ALL the force his explosions give out?

 

[Earthyboy]

This CRT can actually serve for base Deku’s rating as I brought it up in the OP and that still constitutes a multiplier.

I’d like to ask, did we ever get a blatant statement that Bakugou experiences ALL the force his explosions give out?

Yeah, but at this point, it would just make more sense to put this in a CRT for everyone to see. And I guess Bakugo would experience some of the recoils of his explosions.