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How is calcing Bakugou's explosions based on size but then ignoring the ones you don't agree with not cherry picking? Especially since we know size translates to power for him.
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MHA AP and Durability Upgrades
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Okay? He was still caught off guard from Bakugo's sneak attack. Even then, we don't see how big the explosion is so you can't really use that against me. You can't really classify it.
Okay? Why wouldn't it be close to High 8-C? Is there a reason? Is there some sort of contradiction here?
We can ignore every instance of a High 8-C withstanding a smaller explosion because they're either caught off guard in that instance, or the explosion only pushed them back a bit. And it would probably be an outlier thanks to prior information I've covered.
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I don't really remember Shishikura withstanding any of Bakugo's bigger blasts, so that sounds iffy.
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Actually you're right he didn't.
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There's also the fact that Denki was training for the Licensing Exam anyway, so he'd likely be stronger than he was in the Sports Festival.
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When did he survive a hit from Kirishima?
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Getting oneshot isn't really scaling though at best he downscales.
That's genuinely debatable cause someone like Bakugou's surpasses his full power explosions with normal attacks over a couple months
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He still got one-shotted. He got knocked out. Just because he survived with minuscule injuries doesn't mean the K.O didn't happen from one-hit.
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That calculation is incorrect mind you. We don't see the full size of the explosion and therefore it's unusable.Was it from this calc?
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Nope, it was from this explosion.Was it from this calc?
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Ah, my bad.
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One-shotted would mean he got killed, which is not the case.
According to our standards, he can downscale.
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You can still one-shot someone, while not killing them. You literally cannot argue his durability is relative to Bakugo's attack, that's ridiculous.
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How? Because those same size explosions have showings of hurting people that can scale to Bakugo's bigger explosions, that's how.
Bakugo hurt 5% Deku with an explosion in their fight that is not high 8-c. The very first explosion of the entire fight, the right hand, injures Deku's leg. That explosion is not high 8-c, so why is he hurt by it.
You say you aren't saying people are wall level, yet make no claim against it nor say anything contrary? Your entire stance is that Ochako and Base Deku are wall level based on the same feats that are argued to be outliers, you're just saying it isn't.
Chapter 117, Deku dodges most of an explosion from Bakugo but gets his leg caught in it and is injured from it. He is not off guard and was actively avoiding the explosion, even analyzing Bakugo's movements the whole time. Why is he injured by getting just part of his leg caught in an explosion.
We can't ignore 5% getting injured by a small explosion at the beginning of his fight with Bakugo and we certainly cannot ignore his claim that 5% isn't much of an increase to his base. You would rather center half the most prevalent characters becoming thousands of times stronger over the course of a few months, while other characters barely gain a 2x increase over the same amount of time, than downscale people from 5% despite not providing any evidence to the contrary that can't be explained away similar to how you explain away any instance of someone taking damage from Bakugo's explosions.
Also, you want to talk about "if you're off guard, Bakugo can push you back/hurt you with small explosions"? Base Deku was off guard when Bakugo hurt him with the only explosion he got off. Base Deku was MORE off guard than 5% was, yet you want to say he fully scales ONLY to this attack? By your own logic he shouldn't scale to this. I extrapolate further on this below.
There is no argument you have presented that disagrees with downscaling Base Deku from 5% by the way. Which was the main point of discussion, if you haven't forgotten.
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Points for Base Deku downscaling from 5%:
1) Deku states that 5% is a small increase of power to his base - This is the most blatant and non-contested evidence for base Deku downscaling from 5%. It has been discussed in this thread several times, but the general consensus is that he is referring to his base when he says "it only gives a small increase of power."
2) Deku can be injured by explosions that aren't high 8-c in size, both in Base and 5% - Bakugo has hit Deku with explosions in every single percentage and stage of development he has had. The two have been training and fighting against each other ever since their fight, and especially after Deku awakened Black Whip. For the narrative to be consistent, Deku would had to have taken hits from Bakugo while training. This would mean Bakugo's explosions have to be able to keep up with Deku's exponential growth in percentages. Bakugo even states that he "grits his teeth in order to not fall behind" when Deku gains power. His speed statement does not inherently mean that speed is the ONLY stat he is keeping up with him in. The story would make no sense and contradict itself if Deku could one shot Bakugo at this state of the story with ease. Bakugo's statement implies actual statistical similarity between the two of them.
3) Base Deku is shown to have comparable durability to Bakugo - Base Deku is worse than Bakugo in everyway, and it is acknowledged that it is only with OFA that he can keep up. In no way does this imply he cannot downscale from a version of himself that can keep up with Bakugo. To put this in perspective: If Deku is weaker than Bakugo by two times, is less skilled than him, has less range than him, has no hax compared to him, is slower than him and has less mobility options than him, will he ever win a fight against Bakugo. No. Base Deku is inferior to Bakugo for several reasons, not because Bakugo is literally a thousand times stronger than him and can one shot him. Being unable to defeat your opponent, means you are inferior to them, not that they can one shot you. In order to prove they can one shot you, you have to demonstrate instances where they have done so. Base Deku can take physical hits from Bakugo, and regardless of whether Bakugo wasn't trying to kill him, he was not pulling his punches when attempting to force him to use his quirk. You can attack without holding back while not attempting to kill someone. The ability to do so is not inclusive.
Further feats of Base Deku taking attacks that can harm Bakugo are further down.
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Points against Base Deku downscaling:
1) He got hurt by Bakugo's explosions
This example is the worst presented, as my opponents own logic contradicts itself.
According to ideas presented in this thread, this example can be fully attributed to the durability negating aspect of Bakugo's explosions, as well as, for my opponent, the fact that Deku was off guard. My opponent believes that being off guard is grounds for attacks even hundreds of thousands of times weaker than yourself to be capable of snapping your head to the side and injuring you, or pushing you back, as stated here.
Deku, in the instance that he is hurt by Bakugo's explosions, is defined by every single instance of off guard that you use to defend your own arguments. He is blinded by an explosion, he doesn't know where Bakugo is, he just missed throwing a counterattack, he is distracted by the explosion that just went off in his face and his footing is broken from missing a punch. If Base Deku is off guard here, your argument that he should scale to Bakugo hurting him in this instance is obsolete by your own logic.
2) Ochako was hurt by Bakugo's explosions - Again, my opponents have acknowledged that Bakugo has durability negation for his explosions, her being hurt means absolutely nothing. The argument of she had scrapes from the battle,
and therefore she must have taken damage from the force, is ridiculous. Blunt force does not cause scraping. There is no way those scrapes were caused by his explosions, which contain only heat and blunt force. It is FAR more likely that they were caused by her constantly being pulled along the concrete ground after being pushed back by his explosions, or from the debris kicked up from Bakugo destroying the concrete ground.
3) Because [insert character] was pushed back, they do not scale to Bakugo physically - This argument is the most egregious since this implies anyone who has been pushed back by Bakugo's explosions should scale far below his physical stats.
The list of characters that would fall under that description includes, but is not limited to:
5% Deku
Kirishima
Class 1-B Students from the Joint Training Arc
Nine - Calc this explosion. If it isn't small city+, there is no reason Nine should have been hurt by it.
Daigo - The purple villain from Two Heroes who effectively one shot Kirishima with ease, but was then pushed back by an explosion from Bakugo that was not high 8-c.
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Base Deku's Durability Feats
1) Withstands a New Hampshire Smash from All Might - All Might was not holding back against Deku and Bakugo at this point, and was demonstrably harming both of them. There is no argument where All Might would have gone easier on Midoriya in this instance than he was Bakugo.
2) Everytime Nine hurts Base Deku - Base Deku is weaker than Bakugo, as is his durability, yet he can take attacks from Nine and stay completely conscious. Nine is fully capable of hurting Bakugo with even just his air pressure quirk, yet BASE Deku rises again and again. This example doesn't need scans for it, we all saw the movie and how many times Nine hurt Base Deku.
3) Deku's arm is only dislocated when he uses Bakugo's gauntlet - Contrary to my opponents beliefs, Deku dislocating his arm here can be attributed to 1 factor. He is weaker than Bakugo by a magnitude. He does not have to be 9-B in order for High 8-C+ force to dislocate his arm. So contrary to what is said here:
I am not relying on him being off guard for why his arm was dislocated. My current argument is that Deku is over twice as weak as Bakugo physically (baseline high 8-c compared to Bakugo who can take hits from 5% Deku (4.8 tons)). A difference of that magnitude is more than enough to justify Bakugo's GAUNTLET explosions (6.68 tons) dislocating his shoulder, as he would be nearly three times weaker than their blowback.
If Deku was hundreds of thousands of times weaker than Bakugo, the force from the gauntlets would have done more than simply dislocate his arm. If Deku is a couple times weaker than Bakugo, such as downscaling from 5%, it would make perfect sense why it would hurt him to do this but be enough for him to withstand. Not to mention, if my opponent truly believes it is my argument, then sure, Deku was off guard when he unleashed this explosion, which according to my opponent, can make even street level attacks move High 8-C characters. So they shouldn't have any issues with it anyway, since it wouldn't imply anything about Base Deku's durability.
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The arguments for Base Deku not downscaling are contradictory. You cannot claim some characters are only wall level due to tanking hits from explosions, but then say other characters should retain high 8-c for tanking those same hits. It is asinine. The points against Deku's durability are contradicted by later feats, but i already know the arguments against this, which brings me to the last point.
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Getting 100000x Stronger in a few months
This problem is something that many Shonen face, and as such, an expectation or belief that ALL shonen operate this way naturally rises. Many famous shonen have characters display feats thousands of times higher than what they've displayed previously with just a few months of training. MHA does this as well, but the degree we are attempting to agree to is asinine even in comparison to later scaling.
The ability to become over a hundred times stronger than your past self is possible in My Hero Academia. Examples of this include: Endeavor, Best Jeanist and Kirishima. Eri is literally a child and will more than likely become 8-C in the future. With training, a massive increase in strength is possible.
The ability to become several hundred thousand times stronger in less than 4 months is not possible. Quirks are physical. They can be trained like a muscle to become stronger, and the bodies of people in My Hero Academia follow that same ruling. But there is a limit to how fast someone can suddenly grow in strength in time. Endeavor has been training for years, literal decades, and has peaked at his current rating of town level. Assuming he began his career at around Bakugo's level in UA (i'll use 5% Deku's value of 4.8 tons), over the course of his life, he would have gotten 1,312x stronger. That is an impossible amount to achieve in real life, but in fiction, it's fine, and it is shown how hard he worked for it and how long it took him to achieve such strength. However, even from a fictional standpoint, his gain in strength is quite out there, even if it took him decades to achieve it.
In comparison, by my opponents own arguments, we would have the students eclipse Endeavor's entire life of training in mere months. Those opposed to my stance are attempting to say that it is ok for the students to jump from 9-C to Deku's level of High 8-C in, from sports festival to Joint Training/Heroes Rising, less than six months. To put that into perspective, from the street level calc supplied by Therefir of Monoma hurting Bakugo (5677 joules = .000005677 tnt), they would have jumped 845,516x their own strength. They would have exceeded Endeavor's training by 644 times in a few months. Even from the wall level calc that earthyboy did (101 kilojoules = .0000242 tnt), Base Deku, to consistently take hits that can hurt Heroes Rising Bakugo (8 tons), would have had to become 330,578x stronger. You're telling me Base Deku gained this much strength in a few months, but his full cowl stayed comparable to Bakugo?
This proposes so many questions it is unreal. How did the other students get this much stronger in mere months, when Bakugo has been capped at nearly the same level of explosions for a year? How did Bakugo not even grow 3x stronger over the same amount of time. How did Base Deku increase his durability so much in such a short time that he can now take hits that harm 8 ton Bakugo, but his full cowl hasn't grown in strength at all. Why are the students not all eclipsing pro heroes in strength right now if they could gain that much strength so quickly. There was a several month time skip between Joint Training and Endeavor's agency, and an even LONGER time skip between Endeavor's agency and the Paranormal Liberation War. It was ONLY after those timeskips that the absolute top tier students like Bakugo gained an increase of strength to Possibly 8-A, which for him would, at the time, be an increase of only 10x. If the students are capable of dynamic leaps of power like that, why did they not gain power even close to that level again when given even more time to train.
The implications that arise from 9-C/9-B are horrendous and destroy scaling more than downscaling ever could.
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Essentially:
There is no 9-C or 9-B.
We do not scale anyone to withstanding Bakugo's explosions ever, and instead only use his non gauntlet explosions to scale his physicals since he actually takes the force of those. Inverse square law, inconsistent damage, etc., just don't scale anyone to taking his hits directly. The only possible exception to this is Base Deku having his shoulder dislocated from handling Bakugo's gauntlet, and it would be nothing but a supporting feat for him being a few times weaker than Bakugo.
-----> Bakugo taking the force of his explosions is consistent, to those who doubt it. He can take hits from 5% Deku who is 4.8 tons, which is stronger than all of his non-gauntlet explosions. In Heroes Rising, he self detonates an explosion that destroys his gauntlet but he is left simply injured. There is no contradiction to him scaling to them.
We downscale students from 5% Deku, which is consistent with statements and feats.
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I can agree with High 8-C (2 tons) Base Deku after reading all of that.
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That’s a pretty big shotgun, Kingofwolves. Not sure how Earthyboy will be able to respond to it all, right or wrong.
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I don't agree with scaling every student to 8-C+ / High 8-C based off of base Deku's exams at the beginning of the series. Rememeber base Deku also had a running speed that was Athletic Human level at best, but with 5% he has feats of being able to move Supersonic.
I don't think it's right to say characters like Hagakure or Jiro or Mineta are physically Large Building level because of physical exercise tests that don't even have anything to do with destroying anything.
That's my biggest concern right now.
I don't think it's right to say characters like Hagakure or Jiro or Mineta are physically Large Building level because of physical exercise tests that don't even have anything to do with destroying anything.
That's my biggest concern right now.
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True. I'll simplify:
Base Deku isn't wall level going by his own logic, Ochako cannot be proven to have been hurt by the force of those explosions, Deku states 5% isn't much of an increase, feats point to that statement being true, and students becoming over 8 hundred thousand times stronger in less than 6 months is stupid and unfounded.
Scaling the students lower is more incorrect than scaling them higher, which has no issues other than "i don't like them being that high."
I thought we were scaling them off Shinso, who despite being weaker than Deku, is able to hurt him. The only other alternative is them not having tiers at all.
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I personally think Base Izuku should be 8-C+, but who cares, the problem here is those who scale to him.
I think people like Damage mentioned should be Unknown, they don't really fight physically anyway, or don't fight at all.
I think people like Damage mentioned should be Unknown, they don't really fight physically anyway, or don't fight at all.
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But why 8-C+. What is the point of not making him baseline high 8-c.
I really don't care for any of the characters that aren't physical fighters. I do care when they're jumping tiers faster than dbz characters.
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I agree with TheRustyOne on this, Mineta used his Quirk to perform extremely well in the side jump test, and Jiro probably used her Quirk to perform decently in some other test as well.
Now, I have no idea what Hagakure did to pass those tests. I still don't know how she even passed the entrance exam.
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It just seems better to me, though it's a very small difference from 1.99 Tons to 2 Tons.
I know it doesn't matter, but personally to me I feel Base Izuku being the same tier as 5% is a little weird. But like I said it's a personal thing, I'm not going to argue for it, it really doesn't even matter.
I know it doesn't matter, but personally to me I feel Base Izuku being the same tier as 5% is a little weird. But like I said it's a personal thing, I'm not going to argue for it, it really doesn't even matter.
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There are buttons on the robots that can be used to deactivate them, that's what Horikoshi said at one point right?
Or am I miss remembering.
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I don't care if those characters don't scale, especially since Jiro has her own building level calcs. They can stay at "at least 8-c" for the whole series for all i care.
yeah thats how she and others got in.
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I think those who do scale should be...
Base Sato, Base Kirishima/Tetsutetsu, Kendo, Shoji, Todoroki, Shishida, and Iida. The 1 Pointer Robots should scale as well, since Shinso and Base Izuku couldn't defeat them during the exam, and Izuku only destroyed one during the festival by using it's own momentum and a metal shield.
Also Aoyama's Navel Laser should scale as he can destroy the robots.
Is that alright?
Base Sato, Base Kirishima/Tetsutetsu, Kendo, Shoji, Todoroki, Shishida, and Iida. The 1 Pointer Robots should scale as well, since Shinso and Base Izuku couldn't defeat them during the exam, and Izuku only destroyed one during the festival by using it's own momentum and a metal shield.
Also Aoyama's Navel Laser should scale as he can destroy the robots.
Is that alright?
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Shiozaki scales since she could destroy robots in the exam according to her villain points. Tsu does too since her frog body makes her "stronger than usual" which should be superior to Shinso. Jiro destroyed robots by piercing their armor and destroying their insides with sound, so she doesn't scale. Ochako might, but she only really trained physically after Stain and mostly in grapples, so just keep her unknown.
Toga can cut base Deku with a finger nail, so she scales too, which would at least make current Ochako high 8-c physically.
Those are the only ones that matter that i can think of. Anyone else either has no feats for the whole manga or got some vs 1-b.
Toga can cut base Deku with a finger nail, so she scales too, which would at least make current Ochako high 8-c physically.
Those are the only ones that matter that i can think of. Anyone else either has no feats for the whole manga or got some vs 1-b.
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Shiozaki can just bind them with her vines and turn them off with the button, that counts as points.
I forgot about Asui, but yeah she scales. Toga could restrain Base Izuku, he needed to use Full Cowl to break her grip. So her being comparable to him is fine.
I forgot about Asui, but yeah she scales. Toga could restrain Base Izuku, he needed to use Full Cowl to break her grip. So her being comparable to him is fine.
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Ochako has her own scaling outside of Toga.
As Monoma only copies the power, not the physical stats of the welder. You can harden yourself to protect yourself from damage but that doesn’t automatically make you strong enough to block an attack without budging.
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That doesn't mean Bakugo hit him with a High 8-C explosion. If we're going to be ignoring the small explosions and their impact on the scaling, then we ought to ignore this feat too.
This is like the most miniscule damage ever. I don't believe that cutting Deku with a fingernail is a strong basis for scaling.
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That's not how that works at all, Monoma is going to be Unknown/Varies.
People who block with something shouldn't scale to their "shield", there's no point in Momona copying Harden if he could tank that blast in the first place.
People who block with something shouldn't scale to their "shield", there's no point in Momona copying Harden if he could tank that blast in the first place.
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Nah, him tanking something with a shield quirk implies his base can't do it.Ochako has her own scaling outside of Toga.
As Monoma only copies the power, not the physical stats of the welder. You can harden yourself to protect yourself from damage but that doesn’t automatically make you strong enough to block an attack without budging.
In other news.
How we dealing with Mirio being able to damage and block attacks from Near High Ends that can take hits from Nejire.
Also Bakugo's explosions are now ACTUALLY faster and stronger than normal, and are more condensed. So even small ones being 8-A isn't far fetched since he's probably experiencing a quirk evolution.
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By the way, I have been reading part of U.A. Beginnings Saga once again looking for feats and this is what I have found (outside the feats we have brought up).
Chapter 24 - A One-Point Bot was shown to be able to take a kick from base Iida. The anime also shows the robot taking a hit as well if anyone is interested.
Chapter 28 - Jiro's Earphone Jacks can withstand being smacked away by a fresh Dark Shadow.
Chapter 29 - Momo can block an attack from a weakened Dark Shadow.
Chapter 35 - Deku states that no one is holding back, Bakugo the least of all.
Chapter 36 - The spectators say Bakugo is going all out against Uraraka.
Chapter 36 - Aizawa states that Bakugo is not toying with Uraraka, and that he recognizes her as a worthy opponent. Aizawa continues by saying it's exactly because Bakugo wants to win so badly, that there's no room for careless or holding back.
Chapter 37 - Bakugo states that there's nothing frail about Uraraka.
Chapter 38 - Deku states to Todoroki that everyone is giving it their all except for him, who at that moment was just using half of his power.
Chapter 39 - Base Deku pushes Todoroki ten meters away with one headbutt (I calculated the distance a long time ago).
Chapter 40 - Base Deku survives the explosion of his clash with Todoroki, and he is send flying 50 meters away into the walls of the stadium (Calculated by me once again).
Chapter 43 - Todoroki appears to survive Bakugo's Howitzer Impact point-blank, but was knocked out.
Chapter 49 - Deku can withstand Gran Torino's casual attacks with or without 5%, and this attacks are strong enough to make him lose 5%, but he did say they are not that damaging.
Chapter 24 - A One-Point Bot was shown to be able to take a kick from base Iida. The anime also shows the robot taking a hit as well if anyone is interested.
Chapter 28 - Jiro's Earphone Jacks can withstand being smacked away by a fresh Dark Shadow.
Chapter 29 - Momo can block an attack from a weakened Dark Shadow.
Chapter 35 - Deku states that no one is holding back, Bakugo the least of all.
Chapter 36 - The spectators say Bakugo is going all out against Uraraka.
Chapter 36 - Aizawa states that Bakugo is not toying with Uraraka, and that he recognizes her as a worthy opponent. Aizawa continues by saying it's exactly because Bakugo wants to win so badly, that there's no room for careless or holding back.
Chapter 37 - Bakugo states that there's nothing frail about Uraraka.
Chapter 38 - Deku states to Todoroki that everyone is giving it their all except for him, who at that moment was just using half of his power.
Chapter 39 - Base Deku pushes Todoroki ten meters away with one headbutt (I calculated the distance a long time ago).
Chapter 40 - Base Deku survives the explosion of his clash with Todoroki, and he is send flying 50 meters away into the walls of the stadium (Calculated by me once again).
Chapter 43 - Todoroki appears to survive Bakugo's Howitzer Impact point-blank, but was knocked out.
Chapter 49 - Deku can withstand Gran Torino's casual attacks with or without 5%, and this attacks are strong enough to make him lose 5%, but he did say they are not that damaging.
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Am I missing something or am I not seeing Bakugo physically striking Monoma? Explosion excluded.
Also, how does a shield quirk translate to being strong enough not to move?
Also, how does a shield quirk translate to being strong enough not to move?
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