Mewtwo and some Legends Revision

[Dark649]

Currently we have Base Mewtwo scaling to Deoxys, who fought with Mega Rayquaza, but there some problems with this:

1) Mewtwo fought on par with Deoxys in the manga, who is the same one that got oneshotted by Mega Rayquaza in the same manga.

2) That Deoxys from Generation, was also easily handled by Mega Rayquaza.

3) Landorus does not likely scale to Lugia by being a Trio Master since Lugia has his own feat to put him at that tier.

 

[Dark649]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I would also appreciate further community input. You can ask The real cal howard and Saikou The Lewd King to comment here if you wish.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Considering Mewtwo could easily become High 4-C soon, likely isn't going to matter. But I'm still gonna argue a few things. Like the fact that said Deoxys was comparable to the previous ones you mentioned isn't true.

 

[Dark649]

High 4-C Mewtwo is inconsistent since most of the verse has tier 6 feats for legends for it and for those who scales.

 

[Dark649]

It's true since Deoxys was stomped by Mega Ray in the manga.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Saying it's inconsistent on the basis of saying that legendaries who don't scale are tier 6 is like saying that the CT being tier 2 is inconsistent for similar reasons.

Considering how he's still in one piece, I'm gonna need more context. Because Deoxys was obliterated before, so simply being tackled and ko'd isn't grounds for your debate. Also, link the before and after, please.

 

[Dark649]

Deoxys also got his core destroyed, which totally defeated him there.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, Link the before and after. One scan isn't enough to prove or disprove a point.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Can we see the full fight?

 

[Dark649]

It's chapter 21 of Adventures Oras.

 

[Dark649]

The context is that Mega Rayquaza shattered the meteor where Deoxys was inside, then he tried to drop the fragments of the meteor to earth, since there was no time Ruby and Sapphire told Rayquaza to attack Deoxys and destroy his core, which was able to do.

 

[Dark649]

Bump

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I read the fight.

That doesn't seem like a stomp at all, just a way to stop Deoxys from causing trouble by using a focused attack on him. It can very much be PIS.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

The Deoxys that Ray one shot is literally the same Deoxys Mewtwo fought.

 

[Dark649]

Mewtwo attacks to the core did caused some damage to Deoxys, but Mega Ray oneshotted it meaning that there is a notable difference in power with Mewtwo and Mega Rayquaza.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For one, it wasn't exactly a one shot. Deoxys still tanked Rayquazas attack to destroy the meteor and even then, Rayquaza needed a full powered Dragon Acsent to destroy Deoxys's core. So Rayquaza didn't just casually beat him.

It would also seem PIS given Ruby and Sapphire were also in danger and would not be able to stay in the middle of a long drawn-out fight between them in outer space.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Deoxys took one hit and was out. And the meteor could of took the brunt of the attack. It could even be considered a blitz, I don't think Deoxys even realized it was one shot untill after the fact

 

[Dark649]

Deoxys was inside his triangular rock, which was inside the meteor when Rayquaza attacked and it only awakened it [not any damage to Deoxys].

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Point is, Deoxys was ohkoed and arguably even blitzed by Ray.

Mewtwo could scale off things like Zygarde since he fought it in the continuity, but scaling off Ray for fighting a Deoxys that was stomped by him is dubious.

 

[Dark649]

Manga Mega Mewtwo scales to 70% Zygarde alongside Yvetal and Xerneas [Complete Zygarde and Magearna are superior to these]. Red Genesect scales to Mega Mewtwo. Deoxys scales to Rayquaza.

 

[PaChi2]

Deoxys doesnt scale to Mega Ray. It was oneshoted. End.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Huh, I figured complete Zygarde would at least be Mega Ray tier for being earth's guardian.

Oh well, I'm sure US&M will bring new stuff to the table but for now all im gonna agree with is Deoxys=/=Mega Ray, at least in the manga.

 

[Dark649]

Complete Zygarde has not fought Mega Ray yet, but he should scale more to it.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Nah I get that, honestly either way I'm fine with the current revision.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Where does it imply the triangle protected Deoxys at all? Rayquaza shouldve cleaved right through it and Deoxys if both couldnt survive his power.

It wasnt a stomp. Rayquaza was physically overpowered by Deoxys and literally needed its most powerful move to destroy its core. Thats not one shotting at all, otherwise Rayquaza as a mega wouldve used any normal attack instead of Dragon Ascent to destroy Deoxys.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Rayquaza hit him once, he went down.

It's clear as day and we see it happen even if he used DA to ohko, it was still an ohko, it is, by definition, a one shot as it took only a single hit.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And that attack was still his most powerful move in his whole arsenal. Rayquaza could have easily used a simple hyper beam or dragon breathe to win if Deoxys was that much weaker than itself.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And? It still one shot.

Unless ya wanna argue Rayqyaza's other moves are far weaker than DA and can't harm other people on his tier.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What difference would that make if his other moves are much weaker than DA? They are simply at a lower degree of Tier 6 than DA is as DA uses Mega Rays full power. And it needed that full power to destroy Deoxys's core.

A one shot would mean Rayquaza can casually best it with any move it has and if it was truly far weaker, Deoxys shouldnt have even taken a dragon claw from Ray. And not just Rayquaza but any character in general. So there's no reason why Deoxys can't scale towards Mega Ray to the point where it forces Mega Ray to use its most powerful move to win.

 

[Dark649]

The Deoxys from Generations was also easily handled by Mega Ray, Deoxys AT scales more to Rayquaza since their fight from the movie.

 

[Dark649]

The downgrade i propose is little and makes more sense:

At least High 6-A: A. Deoxys, Base Mewtwo, Mew, Purple Genesect, Darkrai, Cresselia.

Landorus: At least Low 6-B.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frankly, this thread is a bit obsolete, and I don't care as the argument does make sense, but I still have to call out a few points.

1, The meteor took the brunt of the attack: Things don't work like that. Mewtwo was inside said meteor. Not behind it or anything. I blow up your house to smithereens with you inside. Are you gonna survive?

2, Deoxys was one-shot: You hit a canonical weakpoint. Kinda why they (Ruby and Sapphire) said to target the weak point. I guess I don't scale to normal humans because I can be killed in one shot if hit in my temple.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I mean even if we go that route, Rayquaza was vaporizing Deoxys in the movie with casual attacks.

And yes, if ya blow up my house im not taking the entirety of the attack regardless if im in it and id rather liken it to a shield, yeah he was in it but he was also behind miles of meteor. The only time i think theyre actually equal is in PSMD.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hyper Beam is not a casual attack. And still, Deoxys was hit point blank. Goku's Angry Kamehameha that beat Frieza was more of a casual attack. Obviously Frieza scales to SS Goku though.

Shields don't work like that if they're literally run through and blown up.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Honestly, I'd argue Hyper Beam is casual for Ray, he spams it in almost every fight he's in and while a strong attack it most certainly is casual for him.

And thats not really a good example considering Frieza was almost dead at that point, Goku was exhausted and just gave ki to Frieza.

Plus I wouldn't say it was plowed through like nothing, it took the combined forces of every dex holder and a Dragon Ascent to do so while DA dropped Deoxys in one hit, weakspot or not and was even noted the Primals couldn't do much to it. Of course I actually think the meteor needing that much to be taken down is PIS and actual bullshit, considering Base weather trio and the Regi's have country feats in base in the same manga but Deoxys being equal to Mega Ray I disagree with.

 

[Dark649]

I checked this video and Deoxys gets vaporized by Ray.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Oddly enough its weak point (brain) tanks it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's likely a sneak attack and there's no reason why Deoxys couldn't have simply teleported or moved out of the way.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

It being a sneak attack doesn't somehow decrease its durability by such a huge extent it's literally vaporized, and it happens multiple times like a stray hyper beam vaporizing its arm.