Metal Gear Solid speed downgrade proposal.

[Qawsedf234]

The Rating

Currently everyone pre-MGR is scaled to the following calc.

The issue here is the source used for the reasoning

A cannon that uses electromagnetic induction to accelerate and launch a projectile.

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Rail guns can deliver their projectile to the target without using rocket propulsion, thereby avoiding thermal detection. In 2005, Metal Gear REX was equipped with a rail gun on its right shoulder to achieve stealth nuke capability.

Subsequently, Livermore National Labs and ArmsTech Corporation succeeded in developing a miniaturized version. The rail gun wielded by Fortune during the 2009 Big Shell Incident used plasma electrons as mobile conductors to enhance acceleration. The kinetic energy of its projectiles reached 10 megajoules.

After Fortune's death, Vamp provided the technology to Liquid Ocelot, and it was placed in the hands of Crying Wolf of the BB Corps.

And this is what the calc uses as justification for the speed

Given that the portable railguns are minituarized versions of the same technology according to the MGS4 database and shoot much smaller projectiles than a nuclear warhead/missile It isn't a stretch to say they should have the same level of speed.

That's literally not how railguns or miniaturization works in any capacity

• Railguns require both a massive power source and require the rails to be longer to achieve greater amounts of speed
• REX's railgun is not only powered by its massive engine but is orders of magnutide larger than Crying Wolf/Fortune's railgun
• Making something smaller does not mean it has the same speed. Lets look at the most popular example of minitunzation: The Vulcan Cannon and the Minigun
  • The Vulcan has a muzzle velocity of 1,050 m/s and the Minigun has a muzzle velocity of 853 m/s
  • The Vulcan's bullets have a KE of 53,567 joules and the Minigun has a KE of 3,470 joules

There's no reason provided why a far smaller weapon has the same speed of REX's railgun.

To add, though this is a less important note; In order for the KE number to make any sense with a 100 km/s figure the projectiles would have a max weight of two grams.

The proposal is going back to the old hypersonic/supersonic calcs.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the Railguns clearly have far less KE compared to the nuke launcher and there's no reason to imply the railguns have the same muzzle velocity as the nuclear missiles.

I agree with downgrading them based on the respective 2000-3500 m/s railguns to get the Supersonic/Hypersonic end results.

 

[Chariot190]

Raiden has a HH+ (mach 80) feat, so that's where they'd go. Think Ocelot has one too but that's old OBD shit. Grey Fox also has some old HH calcs. (Wonder if we could do some Volgin calcs, his electricity has a ludicrously high voltage of 10,000,000 volts and ampage, so we could probably get multiple hh-mhs calcs off that).

THOUGH
Venom Snake can actually dodge Sahel's Railgun (as in, a big ass actual railgun equipped to a giant mecha) using his perception manip (he can also visibly outpace rockets), and Sahel is effectively just Rex but before Rex, you can even see it slow down enough to see it actually travel, so imo they should still have MHS reactions, given he can like, perceive the 100km/s visibly move through the air and the ground, physically he'd down scale tho as his dodge is covering quite a bit less distance, probably some degree of hypersonic-HH.
He can also fold Skulls who have wacky perception feats that scale to their combat speed.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Raiden has a HH+ (mach 80) feat, so that's where they'd go. Think Ocelot has one too but that's old OBD shit. Grey Fox also has some old HH calcs.

THOUGH
Venom Snake can actually dodge Sahel's Railgun (as in, a big ass actual railgun equipped to a giant mecha) using his perception manip (he can also visibly outpace rockets), and Sahel is effectively just Rex but before Rex, you can even see it slow down enough to see it actually travel, so imo they should still have MHS reactions, given he can like, perceive the 100km/s visibly move through the air and the ground, physically he'd down scale tho as his dodge is covering quite a bit less distance, probably some degree of hypersonic-HH.
He can also fold Skulls who have wacky perception feats that scale to their combat speed.

Yeah and considering Venom Snake is basically the worst Snake going by the Scaling Chain, that says a lot.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Venom Snake can actually dodge Sahel's Railgun (as in, a big ass actual railgun equipped to a giant mecha) using his perception manip (he can also visibly outpace rockets), and Sahel is effectively just Rex but before Rex, you can even see it slow down enough to see it actually travel, so imo they should still have MHS reactions

Can you give a scan of the scene?

Plus even Sahelanthropus might not actually fire as fast as REX. It has two means of delivering a nuclear weapon, one was blowing itself up and the other was just... a missile strapped onto it. It could also very well be much slower than REX's railgun as well. Especially since its over twenty years older than it.

 

[Hellbeast]

So..
when's AP

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's for later

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, if there are other feats, we could use those; this thread is just discussing the flaws of assuming Railguns have the same muzzle velocity as the nuclear missiles.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If in perception mode stuff like tanks and the like can be seen as moving comparable the the railgun shot, its probably better to just use the older HH calcs.

 

[Chariot190]

Can you give a scan of the scene?

Plus even Sahelanthropus might not actually fire as fast as REX. It has two means of delivering a nuclear weapon, one was blowing itself up and the other was just... a missile strapped onto it. It could also very well be much slower than REX's railgun as well. Especially since its over twenty years older than it.

Not really, I'd have to dig up the footage given it's footage I got myself from over a year ago, I'd have to set up the PS4, upload the footage to yt, download it from yt to my PC, clip it, and so on, which I was gonna do eventually but I'm kinda doing exactly that for Elden Ring atm, there was plans for a MGS CRT eventually (even if it WAS taking awhile), you kinda jumped the gun tho and didn't inform anyone to help or to look up alternative feats. You probably should've asked in the MGS discussion or discord and people could've helped out you could've joined in helping clean the verse up. If you want the exact clip you might have to find a yt clip yourself or just wait awhile. Unless Twellas has it but idk, I recall doing it for him in the first place. If you need an easy way to activate this tho, there's an item in game that automatically induces perception manip, Sahel at like health HP will jump onto the cliff and turn into REX mode, firing the railgun, instead of timing it to activate perception manip like a chad right when he fires, you can just pop drugs to induce the state at the right time.

It should by all accounts be the same, it's effectively the base model of REX, even having a "REX" mode where it turns into, well, REX. And it having multiple nuke methods doesn't change the fact that it does, indeed, have a giant ass railgun, and in this case, the argument of "it doesnt have to fire something as heavy as a missile" actually DOES make sense as not only is it the same size as REX's railgun, but it's firing lighter things, if anything, it's faster.

And while true, it is older, you gotta remember that REX was kinda based on it, they didn't pull REX out their ass, or well they did, but retroactively they just used Sahel's schematics.

 

[Chariot190]

If in perception mode stuff like tanks and the like can be seen as moving comparable the the railgun shot, its probably better to just use the older HH calcs.

They aren't comparable, the railgun is still quite fast, where as things like tanks and missiles slow to a crawl, in perception mode the Railgun just slows down to the point you can visibily see it move from Point A to B and actually dodge it if you got enough space.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah ideally before any further threads you should contact us, we had our plans to downgrade the verse too, as least AP-wise.

Anyway, following

 

[Qawsedf234]

you kinda jumped the gun tho and didn't inform anyone to help or to look up alternative feats.

I can close this if it's to much. I thought the franchise was mostly settled when I made the CRT and I wouldn't want to impact any big overhauls.

 

[Chariot190]

I thought the franchise was mostly settled

Nah lots need changes, from stats to even just clean up and adding sources to stuff. I've gotten way better at calcing shit too and picking up on things, been thinking of doing a retread of the games after two future CRT's that are mostly done and from there actually start dumping shit in the MGS thread that now exists so people can discuss.

No it's fine, you don't need to close it, idk if nobody has any opposition you could maybe drop them to HH+ for now I guess? Though I still think MHS reactions (as in perception) is legit. Doubly so if we actually get the old MHS calcs redone and accepted given they're ancient as ****.
If it was me I'd do "MHS reactions, HH+ combat speed", but as I don't actually have the clip for the MHS shit on hand it'd be weird writing a justification without the sauce, I want to avoid that.
So like, not sure what we wanna do there, if we wanna wait to it's all compiled, or just say **** it and fix later, or whatever.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean if characters fight each other that usually means reactions end up scaling to combat speed.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah that's typically how it goes

 

[Abstractions]

I personally found the Supersonic+ calculation to be wonky if anything.

So like, not sure what we wanna do there, if we wanna wait to it's all compiled, or just say **** it and fix later, or whatever.

I'd say compiling it to be handled at once would make things more simple.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean if characters fight each other that usually means reactions end up scaling to combat speed

In Reflex mode you have inconsistent physics. Like people falling in slow motion but still at perceptual speeds.

Also viewing a MHS object that you can only dodge with enough distance would give them MHS perception speed, but the only way you could get MHS combat speed is if the perso in question moved FTE to the other person. Like during Fox's FTE scene in Twin Snakes.

But I'll just close it and wait for the big CRT so I don't disrupt anything.