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Meta narrative and Plot Manipulation for Ben 10

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Forthegood said:
Sure, 'I do not believe' may not be an outright disagreement, but it clearly suggests that Firestorm is leaning towards not recognizing metafictional elements in the Ben 10 series. If they didn’t see any strong evidence for it, that weakens the case for plot manipulation. But feel free to ask again for a more definitive answer—though I think we both know where they stand on this.
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kurapika pfp W
 
Theglassman12 said:
You mean changing the reality to make someone look different? That barely has any connotations to metanarrative stuff that the wiki is looking for. If this is all you guys have I'm not changing my stance.
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Can you please stop the strawman? I've already tackled such points of yours and asked you to read some stuff in the previous page, but you seem to be focused on nitpicking the evidence. Even Abaddonthedissapointment agreed with metafictional stuff but still doesn't agree with plot manip for some reason. Going in a circular loop isn't gonna help you.
 
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Abaddon never said he fully agreed to it, he said even assuming it's just a meta reasoning by the writers, it's still not enough for plot hax. Also I'm not nitpicking evidence, you're just not giving any sufficient arguments to prove plot hax for celestialsapiens.
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
In addition since I don't think anyone's brought this up yet, simply having a metafictional aspect doesn't grant plot manip. You'd have to actively be shown or said to be manipulating the plot itself, not just changing the artstyle
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@Theglassman12
Literally what I told you but you didn't bother to read the previous page and chose to nitpick as per your own convenience.
 
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Hellformer said:
@Theglassman12
Literally what I told you but you didn't bother to read the previous page and chose to nitpick as per your own convenience.
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You mean, how you are ignoring us, calling out what we think is just RW/casualty manipulation? Saying that we are just nitpicking after 3 staff has shown implications of disagreeing with you, and a large part of the normal scalers, here and most people that are not part of the Ben 10 community think it doesn't meet the requirements for "meta" or plot manipulation. Even Firestorm, the staff on the wiki with the most knowledge disagrees with the meta aspect, even saying Ben 10 lacks it.
'
The point is that this has been rejected by 3 staff, and the same arguments are going in circles. It would be safe to call this CRT to have failed (not trying to be rude, but I can't find a better way to word it...) I think it would be good to consider requesting this to be closed.

Naturally, if you find better arguments with new supporting feats/statements you can try again in the future.
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
You mean, how you are ignoring us, calling out what we think is just RW/casualty manipulation?
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Abaddon made the same claim in the previous page and I refuted it after which he didn't respond to it.
Dark_Soul20189 said:
Saying that we are just nitpicking
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I said glassman12 was nitpicking, not you or others, kindly read properly.
Hellformer said:
Can you please stop the strawman? I've already tackled such points of yours and asked you to read some stuff in the previous page, but you seem to be focused on nitpicking the evidence. Even Abaddonthedissapointment agreed with metafictional stuff but still doesn't agree with plot manip for some reason. Going in a circular loop isn't gonna help you.
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Hellformer said:
@Theglassman12
Literally what I told you but you didn't bother to read the previous page and chose to nitpick as per your own convenience.
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Dark_Soul20189 said:
after 3 staff has shown implications of disagreeing with you, and a large part of the normal scalers, here and most people that are not part of the Ben 10 community think it doesn't meet the requirements for "meta" or plot manipulation. Even Firestorm, the staff on the wiki with the most knowledge disagrees with the meta aspect, even saying Ben 10 lacks it.
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Already talked about this and Dareaper gave me few days for it which is why I thanked him.
Hellformer said:
Yeah sure thanks
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The writers rewrote the plot and simply used celestialsapiens reality warping powers as plot device to have it make sense canonically

You can achieve a near identical effect of plot hax without it being necessarily plot hax and that is a more reasonable and logical conclusion than this mental gymnastic which is Occam's razor
lastly there isn't any positive argument to it being plot hax rather than reality warping as the supposed evidence that it is plot hax is also an evidence that it could be not
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
The writers rewrote the plot and simply used celestialsapiens reality warping powers as plot device to have it make sense canonically

You can achieve a near identical effect of plot hax without it being necessarily plot hax and that is a more reasonable and logical conclusion than this mental gymnastic which is Occam's razor
lastly there isn't any positive argument to it being plot hax rather than reality warping as the supposed evidence that it is plot hax is also an evidence that it could be not
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  • The distinction lies in how these in-verse powers are portrayed. When characters like the Celestialsapiens actively rewrite canon (Osmosians, art styles, etc.) and are aware of doing so on a level beyond simple reality warping, this steps into plot manipulation territory.
    • Evidence: The use of their reality-warping powers isn't just casual; it is targeted at fixing narrative-level issues, which makes it more than just a plot device. They effectively rewrite portions of the Ben 10 narrative, including previously established narratives, something more akin to plot manipulation than simple reality bending.
  • Distinguishing Reality Warping from Plot Manipulation: Reality warping often means changing in-verse elements without breaking or influencing the story's internal structure. Plot manipulation, however, allows for changes that affect how the story is constructed. The Celestialsapiens do things that directly impact how we perceive the story (like changing continuity or even awareness of narrative structure, such as character redesigns).
    • Evidence: Their ability to retroactively change the narrative to accommodate new storylines—especially when they are aware of the changes—puts them in a category beyond typical reality warping. They are essentially rewriting parts of the plot itself within the framework of the story.
  • Positive Argument for Plot Manipulation: The positive argument for plot manipulation stems from the self-awareness shown by characters like Chadzmuth. If the Celestialsapiens were only reality warpers, they wouldn’t need to be aware of things like voice actor changes or shifts in the art style—those are narrative elements, not just in-verse realities. Their powers and awareness enable them to reshape more than just in-world events; they engage with the story structure itself.

This makes the case for plot manipulation reasonable than calling it mere reality warping. The deeper narrative role they play, combined with meta-awareness, allows them to manipulate aspects of the plot that affect how the story unfolds, not just its reality. Thus, despite seeming like a plot device on the surface, their abilities indicate genuine plot manipulation in-verse.

Yeah couldn't explain anything better.
 
CodeCCLL said:
I'm just asking (again). Unless @DaReaperMan received a secret staff promotion or something, why do you think his comment is superior to the other blue members?
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The other 2 just disagreed and left (without any further approach), while Dareaper was active so I asked him for that and he agreed, that's it.
 
Hellformer said:
Metafiction: Fiction in which the author self-consciously alludes to the artificiality or literariness of a work by parodying or departing from novelistic conventions and traditional narrative techniques.
When an author makes narrative changes within a story and justifies those changes by attributing them to an in-universe character with direct comparison instead of change in abilitiy, it counts as metafiction. This is because the author is acknowledging the constructed nature of the story by giving a character the power to influence or alter the narrative itself. In doing so, the story becomes self-aware, and the line between the author's control and the character's control over the narrative blurs. This is a hallmark of metafiction, where the fictional world comments on or interacts with its own narrative framework.

Chadzmuth is aware of changes in art style and character voices, this awareness strengthens the metafictional aspect within the Ben 10. When a character recognizes alterations that exist outside of the in-verse logic (such as changes in animation or voice acting), it demonstrates a clear self-awareness of the fictional nature of their world. This kind of acknowledgment pushes the narrative beyond traditional storytelling, making it an example of metafiction.
@AbaddonTheDisappointment @Theglassman12
I hope you 2 are reading this as well
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My current stance is disagreeing.

Knowing that something changed because of a reality warper is not an example of metafictional elements.

In-Verse Terminology depicting aspects of the verse as metafictional have not been provided.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Firestorm808 said:
Please provide In-Verse Terminology depicting aspects of the verse as metafictional.
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  1. Character Awareness of Thematic Elements: Ben's statement about his theme song not rhyming shows a level of self-awareness and recognition of the narrative structure. This awareness indicates that characters are not just passive participants in their stories; they actively acknowledge the existence of a narrative framework around them. This aspect aligns with metafiction, where characters reflect on their own existence within the story.
  2. Clyde’s Interjection: Clyde’s act of replacing his name in the theme song signifies an interaction with the narrative itself. This not only demonstrates a playful engagement with the story but also implies that characters can alter or comment on their own narrative context. This interaction must be viewed as a metafictional device, where the character engages with elements of the story in a self-referential manner.
  3. The Nature of Celestialsapiens: The Celestialsapiens' abilities to manipulate reality and the self-awareness of Chadzmuth reflects their role as meta-narrative elements. Their interventions often reshape events, characters, and even artistic elements (like voice and style), reinforcing the idea that the narrative is fluid and subject to change based on the characters' actions.
  4. Changes in Art Style and Voice:The existence of characters like Chadzmuth, who are aware of changes in art style and voice actors, further illustrates metafictionality in the series. This awareness indicates that characters understand the shifts in their narrative representation, emphasizing that their universe is shaped by external storytelling choices. By acknowledging their own story, altering plot lines, and interacting with thematic elements, characters contribute to a richer, self-aware storytelling experience that invites the audience to consider the art of storytelling itself.
Conclusion: The combination of Clyde's engagement with the theme song, Ben's self-awareness, Chadzmuth's awareness and the Celestialsapiens' narrative-shaping abilities provides substantial evidence for a metafictional narrative in Ben 10.


It took me too long to type this, so I don't want others to interfere, my aim is to convince firestorm as of now.
 
ShionAH said:
Actually the intro part was heavily problematic and it was deemed to be useless in actual combat. Anyways the actual important part was how Bill also changed Alex Hirsch the creator to himself.

Please dont use whataboutism though, thats just low
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then someone better fix it
 
Forthegood said:
Yeah no none of the things you provided is even related to plot Manipulation maybe for the intro/opening thingy you can make a case for it, but that event was not done by the Celestialsapiens.
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Ye it's for Ben Tennyson but If it's tampered with a little bit, something might happen 😈.
 
anyways changing intro still counts as plot manipulation for Ben Tennyson and Clyde (i won't argue about this ngl it needs a seperate crt for that)
 
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