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What about this?
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Mega Latios and Latias Downgrade (And possibly Diancie upgrade)
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Seems fine to me
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I agree with the others, being selective on the Hoopa movie is definitely cherry picking, the entire movie is a big royal rumble where everyone is more or less comparable to each other, we can't just go and pick what makes sense to us and exclude the rest from the same group of feats.
Barely surviving isn't enough to scale, we never did it, so the downgrade seems good (also because they were in base and not mega and still could do nothing to them)
I'm not sure about Diance, did it deal actual damage to them? Is it shown in later panels? Because just pushing isn't enough to entirely scale, at most it can grant a "Far higher with Moon Blast" just like we do with Tienshinhan pushing back Semi-Perfect Cell despite being greatly inferior to him.
I guess Hoopa scaling is fine, he's too messy to properly tier.
Barely surviving isn't enough to scale, we never did it, so the downgrade seems good (also because they were in base and not mega and still could do nothing to them)
I'm not sure about Diance, did it deal actual damage to them? Is it shown in later panels? Because just pushing isn't enough to entirely scale, at most it can grant a "Far higher with Moon Blast" just like we do with Tienshinhan pushing back Semi-Perfect Cell despite being greatly inferior to him.
I guess Hoopa scaling is fine, he's too messy to properly tier.
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Its a fake Hoopa literally split off from the real one. What do you think?
Pretty sure this is from the very beginning of the ORAS manga when Steven was examining the ruins.
And they were also not passively destroyed by the said primal's power. Had they been billions of times weaker, they would've been destroyed just by being in their mere presence. But that isn't what happened.
And even then, like I said, scale the mega's to the primal's from the movie and that solves the problem. Speaking of which...
No, it isn't. Unfairly grouping all scaling done in that movie together in the same boat as bad scaling, when it isn't, is the definition of unfair generalization and being lazy because some here are over-dramatizing the bad scaling.
Treating scaling on a case by case basis isn't cherry picking, and has never been cherry picking. Something from this movie is scaleable, just use actual common sense and safely scale what doesnt lead to inconsistencies. This isn't even the first time this has been said for Hoopa's movie either. Quote from DragonmasterXYZ who said the exact same thing on this a while back.
"Have we ever thought of just sitting down and evaluating said movie to see what legends scale to what? Not everything is PIS. Something has to be scalable there."
And im going to stand by this. Not everything in this movie is PIS and people need to stop acting like that's the case.
See above. "Everyone comparable to each other" is head canon and just some excuse to throw the whole movie out all together when this isn't a thing.
Yes, we have, and we do. If you survive, even by a bit, then it means your in the same realm of power as the other character and are relative. Otherwise you wouldnt have lasted one single second against them.
And even then, like I said, rescale the mega's from the movie, a movie that I will argue is fine to use.
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Hell, if people want to generalize all of the movies feats as bad scaling because of a few bad apples, might as well go further than that.
Throw out the entire anime which is riddled with PIS in it. Its cherry picking to pick whats bad scaling and what isn't right? So lets dismiss the entire anime that has many bad inconsistent scaling and cause more downgrades.
Throw out the entire anime which is riddled with PIS in it. Its cherry picking to pick whats bad scaling and what isn't right? So lets dismiss the entire anime that has many bad inconsistent scaling and cause more downgrades.
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This is taking stuff out of context tho. You've mentioned Jewel of Life, but issue is that Arceus there has pretty much feats and lores to counter all the anti feats. Hoopa movie isn't, is literally just a bunch of fanservice which contradicts everything that was established before lmao
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Show me one thing outside of the movie that contradicts the Mega forms of the Eon Duo from scaling to the Primal's then if you're so sure of that.
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Without ignoring Primals, Mega Rayquaza and Creation Trio put at the same plane? Mmmmmmmh
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That's not an answer to my question. What outside the Hoopa movie contradicts the Mega evolved Eon Duo from scaling to the primals?
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It is agreed that the feats come from a highly inconsistent event, and using them is selective cherry picking.
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Can the changes the applied then?
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Not really about this, we don't use surviving as a way of scaling, otherwise all characters who gets badly stomped by a villain without dying would still be somewhat in the same ballpark, but we don't do that. In the same way a 10-B human can survive being hit by a car or a truck without being 9-B. Using instances of characters being oneshot but surviving isn't a good way to scale things and opens the doors to thousand of similar instances.
Imho, I stand by the side that the movie isn't good at all for scaling and it's unfair to pick what I like.
Do we see more later? If Groudon and Kyogre didn't take damage but just got pushed, I believe a "Higher/Far higher via Moon Blast" is better than direct scaling.
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When the movie consistently throws previously established scaling + lore out of the window, it's not a reliable source. It's common sense then not to use it as the sole reason a Pokemon scales. You were given three separate scales for the mega eon duo, choosing one because it feels right to you is absolutely cherry-picking.
Groudon and Kyogre didn't seem to take any lasting damage, though moonblast isn't exactly a special technique either. I'd say "likely far higher" would work.
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For things like the CT and Rayquaza? Absolutely, and ive never denied that. But for the Eon duo in question here? No. There's nothing "pre-established" about them outside of this movie that gets messed with, which is why im adamant towards using it for them.
We have all the reasons in the world to deny the CT and Rayquaza scaling, as that is beyond obviously inconsistent, but here for whatever reason, we're lumping together safe scaling and bad scaling. There's no issue with the Eon duo's mega forms scaling as it's a self-contained feat this movie gives. You can't just throw that out because of scaling from totally unrelated legendaries being very flawed.
Because it is right. Otherwise, again, give me a single feat outside of this movie for their mega forms that contradicts scaling to the Primals. And if you can't, then its not cherry picking.
It's giving another absolutely safe method to re-scale them back to the tier without issues.
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That is obviously not what im referring to here and you know it. "not dying" isn't a feat as much as getting one shotted isn't a feat, as both show you are not in the same realm of power of the being who defeated you.
This case differs as the Eon duo are in the same presence of 5-B's passive energy and do not get destroyed or wrecked by it. Surely that gives the implication of tier 5 status for them, but at a far lower extent of the tier. You can't exactly take 5-B energy without being 5-B yourself.
That said, im not even focusing on their base forms anymore as im more concerned with using the Hoopa movie as another method of rescaling the mega forms specifically. The movie may be inconsistent when speaking about the CT and Kyurem and the primal's messing with each other, but there's nothing inconsistent about the Eon duo's mega forms taking on the Primals.
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Yeah sorry Kukui, you're making some weird exception out of an unreliable source, which is even contradicted from OP.
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Not really, they can't even get past their passive energy and get one shotted by a single attack, I don't get why should scale at all.
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Seems ok, maybe writing where they were summoned (games, movie, both etc...) could be nice but that's optional.
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Considering that we're counting basically composite canon, I think I'll pass that.
Anyway, asking to closing this.
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As long as the staff here agree with this, it is probably fine to apply.
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It was already applied, since 3 staffs agreed with the downgrades. You can close this.
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