Mega Latios and Latias Downgrade (And possibly Diancie upgrade)

[Adem_Warlock69]

They shouldn't be 5-B, for 2 reasons

1. Ruby, who has a Mega Latios, and used it to defeat Zinnia's Mega Salamence, claimed that "The only one who can stop them (Groudon and Kyogre) is Rayquaza", this is before they became Primal. So the eon duo aren't even High 6-A
2. Mega Latios and Latias didn't even survive a combined attack from Primal Groudon and Kyogre, their base forms did, and it one-shot them. Primal Groudon and Kyogre can also no-sell Latias' Ice Beam and Latios' Luster Purge and The eon duo couldn't get past The Primals' Passive Energy field Aura thing. So I don't think they should scale

Since their other feats are stomping mega evolutions (High 7-As) and hurting Giratina. They become "At least 6-B" and lose their "At least Class Z, likely higher" lifting strength since it also comes from Primal Groudon and Kyogre

Edit: I don't know if this is enough to scale, but Diancie's Moon-Blast could push both Groudon and Kyogre back, so maybe she could be upgraded to High 6-A?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Also, I don't know if this is enough to scale, but Diancie's Moon-Blast could push both Groudon and Kyogre back, so maybe she could be upgraded to High 6-A?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mega Latios and Latias also lose their "At least Class Z, likely higher" lifting strength since it also comes from Primal Groudon and Kyogre

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Add the comment suggestions to the OP and bring scans

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disagreeing with this downgrade.

First point doesn't amount to much. Ruby said that while Latias and Latios were base, and what evidence do you have that specifically meant they couldn't stop their base forms? Just because this happened before they went Primal doesn't mean he wasnt referring to their Primal States.

Second point is entirely irrelevant since Latias and Latios weren't even mega evolved against the primals, the latter mega forms that are the only said tier 5 forms they have.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

First point doesn't amount to much. Ruby said that while Latias and Latios were base, and what evidence do you have that specifically meant they couldn't stop their base forms? Just because this happened before they went Primal doesn't mean he wasnt referring to their Primal States.

Ruby didn't even know that they had Primal Forms. So he must have been talking about their base forms.

Second point is entirely irrelevant since Latias and Latios weren't even mega evolved against the primals, the latter mega forms that are the only said tier 5 forms they have.

How is it irrelevant? The feat that makes Mega Latios and Latias 5-B doesn't exist (Their base forms did it). So either Base Latios and Latias are 5-B or Mega Latios and Latias aren't 5-B

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree FRA, Kukui literally took my words.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I don't think you're all understanding my second point.

My second point is saying that the feat that makes Mega Latios and Latias 5-B (a.k.a "Surviving a combined attack from Primal Groudon and Kyogre, but barely, and could barely get past their energy") wasn't even done by Mega Latios and Latias. It was done by Base Latios and Latias.

Since Base Latios and Latias aren't 5-B. Mega Latios and Latias shouldn't be 5-B

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think you're all understanding my second point.

My second point is saying that the feat that makes Mega Latios and Latias 5-B (a.k.a "Surviving a combined attack from Primal Groudon and Kyogre, but barely, and could barely get past their energy") wasn't even done by Mega Latios and Latias. It was done by Base Latios and Latias.

Since Base Latios and Latias aren't 5-B. Mega Latios and Latias shouldn't be 5-B

It was done from Megas in the Hoopa movie.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It was done from Megas in the Hoopa movie.

They never "Survived a combined attack from Primal Groudon and Kyogre, but barely, and could barely get past their energy" in the Hoopa movie.
In the hoopa movie, they hurt White Kyurem, Giratina, Dialga, clash with a blast from Primal Groudon and survive a super effective freezer burn from White Kyurem and a hit on the wing by Palkia's spacial rend (Those are all their feats). But using the hoopa movie would upgrade every legendary in the verse.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh, I definitely disagree with using feats from the Hoopa movie since that movie was completely a bunch of fanservice which contradicts any scaling ever established before.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, the Hoopa movie is perfectly fine for using feats so long as you exclude the CT from the equation.

Not all of the movie is PIS ridden.

 

[Saiyan40009]

at least rayquaza matching attacks creation trio

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

No, the Hoopa movie is perfectly fine for using feats so long as you exclude the CT from the equation.

Not all of the movie is PIS ridden.

Doesn't it also make the Primals White/Black Kyurem level?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Doesn't it also make the Primals White/Black Kyurem level?

Maybe? But that was already dismissed as a big outlier once before here. For them.

Simply scale things that reasonably fit and dismiss the scaling that doesn't.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe? But that was already dismissed as a big outlier once before here. For them.

Simply scale things that reasonably fit and dismiss the scaling that doesn't.

You have also Regigigas being portrayed as equal to Reshiram and Zekrom tho

 

[theultimate5105]

Yeah the Hoopa movie should not be used for scaling other then as support

 

[Cropfist]

Using Hoopa scaling would be cherry picking.

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't the Hoopa movie put the Primals, the Creation Trio, Fug, the Eon Duo, Kyurem and Lugia all on the same tier?
Like ok ignore the Creation Trio because obviously.
That still is sus given Lugia, Fug, Primals and Kyurem are all completely different in terms of power yet they're all throwing hands on comparable ground.

Tbh I wouldn't use that movie for anything except for things already established.

Hoopa movie has to go lads for anything except reiteration

Or I guess like maybe, Hoopa exclusive shit given it's HIS movie but you get the point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You have also Regigigas being portrayed as equal to Reshiram and Zekrom tho

How? It just joined in a 3 beam spam against Hoopa. Not exactly meaning its Reshi or Zekrom's tier. Thats like saying Pikachu is Arceus level if both attack the same target.

Using Hoopa scaling would be cherry picking.

No, it isn't. Its called judging the scaling on a case by case basis. Some scaling isn't legit, and some can. Not everything is PIS and generalizing all scaling done in the movie as wrong because only a selective part of it is wrong is ridiculous.

 

[Saiyan40009]

we don't blindfold each other at least lugia faces top tier you seem logical because somehow everyone climbs in the movie hoppa

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, it isn't. Its called judging the scaling on a case by case basis. Some scaling isn't legit, and some can. Not everything is PIS and generalizing all scaling done in the movie as wrong because only a selective part of it is wrong is ridiculous.

Only a selective part

Bruh

 

[StrymULTRA]

How? It just joined in a 3 beam spam against Hoopa. Not exactly meaning its Reshi or Zekrom's tier. Thats like saying Pikachu is Arceus level if both attack the same target.

False equivalence. Hoopa wanted to fight the strongest dudes in that scene, it wouldn't make sense if they're billion times of power difference. Plus they all tank Hoopa's attacks like the same, meaning that they are all such tier there.

Plus we can clearly see all the legendaries there, including Hoopa and Lugia, at the same tier, how tf can that movie be respectable in scaling lmao.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If anything, good thing that no one except Hoopa and Eon Duo rely on scaling from that movie.

So, I'd remove the 5-B stuff from Eon duo and make Hoopa's Tier just a

"Varies. 6-B at lowest, 3-C to High 3-A at peak"

Due of how garbage the movie scaling is.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

False equivalence. Hoopa wanted to fight the strongest dudes in that scene, it wouldn't make sense if they're billion times of power difference. Plus they all tank Hoopa's attacks like the same, meaning that they are all such tier there.

They didnt tank anything. They were all literally one shotted into its rings with a single dark pulse, each.

I also wouldnt use Hoopa's eagerness to fight as an argument when this same Hoopa at that time was extremely cocky and arrogant about its power and wanted to basically "flex" by randomly summoning legendaries as testing dummies. Just because Regigigas was one of the summoned legendaries doesnt mean Hoopa considers it to be of the same class as the other legendaries.

Plus we can clearly see all the legendaries there, including Hoopa and Lugia, at the same tier, how tf can that movie be respectable in scaling lmao.

Based off what? Because of the CT either not one shotting everything minus Arceus or getting harmed? Like I said, exclude the CT entirely from this and there is reasonable scaling that can be taken from this.

Theres a difference between PIS scaling being at work and everything being PIS.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And to be perfectly honest, even if it did somehow mean Regigigas was their tier, how does that cause issues? Isn't Regigigas's literal only reason for High 6-A currently is by sheer upscaling from the regis?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I also wouldnt use Hoopa's eagerness to fight as an argument when this same Hoopa at that time was extremely cocky and arrogant about its power and wanted to basically "flex" by randomly summoning legendaries as testing dummies. Just because Regigigas was one of the summoned legendaries doesnt mean Hoopa considers it to be of the same class as the other legendaries.

Yeah, but them being summoned like the same kinda of implies that. Context is a thing.

Based off what? Because of the CT either not one shotting everything minus Arceus or getting harmed? Like I said, exclude the CT entirely from this and there is reasonable scaling that can be taken from this.

Theres a difference between PIS scaling

As CT is the only problem. You have Kyurem and Primals being at the same level too, despite Kyurem fights Mega Rayquaza equally in the same movie, or Lugia harming that Hoopa in the same movie too.

And to be perfectly honest, even if it did somehow mean Regigigas was their tier, how does that cause issues? Isn't Regigigas's literal only reason for High 6-A currently is by sheer upscaling from the regis?

Accepting it would mean accepting them scaling from CT due of that movie's nature.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tho I agree with the Diancie upgrade

 

[Starter_Pack]

Yeah, sorry Kukui, but I think Adem is correct on the scaling for the Eon Duo. Everything he is saying is quite legitimate, and cherry-picking feats from the Hoopa movie, which I practically consider non-canon anyhow, still doesn't add up. At that point, we just get a ludicrous scaling chain, even when removing the Creation Trio.

Diancie is fine as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, sorry Kukui, but I think Adem is correct on the scaling for the Eon Duo. Everything he is saying is quite legitimate, and cherry-picking feats from the Hoopa movie, which I practically consider non-canon anyhow, still doesn't add up. At that point, we just get a ludicrous scaling chain, even when removing the Creation Trio.

Diancie is fine as well.

What do you think about the new raing I've purposed for Hoopa?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, but them being summoned like the same kinda of implies that. Context is a thing.

And I don’t see how. Random legendary summoning doesn’t imply same tier. And even then, you didn’t answer my question about Regigigas’s tier being where he is solely because of upscaling and not better feats.

As CT is the only problem. You have Kyurem and Primals being at the same level too, despite Kyurem fights Mega Rayquaza equally in the same movie, or Lugia harming that Hoopa in the same movie too.

Lugia harming Hoopa was debunked here more than once already. It harmed SHADOW Hoopa, which is essentially a weakened bloodlusted Hoopa that’s much weaker than the real thing.

Kyurem and the primals are another problem, yes, but they are more easily dismissedable as outliers for the latter for extremely easy reasons, while the mega versions of the Eon duo scaling literally causes no issues.

Accepting it would mean accepting them scaling from CT due of that movie's nature.

That’s not how scaling works. Accept the scaling that actually fits and dismiss the scaling that doesn’t fit. Simple as that.

We have millions of reasons to deny scaling to the CT, while there is absolutely nothing problematic about the Eon duo scaling to the primals. They are 2 separate scaling circumstances that should looked at as there own cases.

Yeah, sorry Kukui, but I think Adem is correct on the scaling for the Eon Duo. Everything he is saying is quite legitimate,

Im sorry but I don’t. If the base forms are the ones from the manga that do the 5-B feats for the Megas currently on the pages, then they should just downscale and be specified to be much weaker than the primals.

Everyone here knows fully well anyway that 6-B is just used as the bare minimum tier for legendaries when they lack any other feat for anything better and are unknown anomalies. Once they do get something better, they shouldn’t be limited to the bare minimum. And even then...

and cherry-picking feats from the Hoopa movie, which I practically consider non-canon anyhow, still doesn't add up. At that point, we just get a ludicrous scaling chain, even when removing the Creation Trio.

I don’t know where people are getting this idea of “cherry picking” from, but that’s downplaying the actual meaning of case by case basis, and is getting dramatic over a PIS filled movie that certainly isn’t the first one in Pokémon to suffer from PIS (Jewel of Life everyone?)

Eon duo scaling to the primals, movie wise, is entirely non-problematic when they themselves do not have conflicting lesser scale feats. We know the primals and kyurem scaling IS problematic because of their feat portrayals setting that standard for us. Kyurem is much above pokemon much above the primals. So we already know what their case is. PIS. And the CT is self explanatory on why scaling to them is obviously bad.

My issue is that this mindset is setting an automatic precedent over everything done in the movie and saying they’re all bad PIS scaling...all because the movie has PIS scaling. And I disagree with that take. Simply dismiss the scaling that’s proven to be PIS (and easily) and that leaves us with reasonable bits of material to use.

Just because a movie has a lot of PIS doesn’t mean everything is PIS is what I’m trying to say.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

If the base forms are the ones from the manga that do the 5-B feats for the Megas currently on the pages, then they should just downscale and be specified to be much weaker than the primals.

I don't think barely surviving a hit qualifies for downscaling and The Eon duo scaling to the primals contradicts Ruby's statement

 

[StrymULTRA]

. It harmed SHADOW Hoopa, which is essentially a weakened bloodlusted Hoopa that’s much weaker than the real thing.

And this from where comes from

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't think barely surviving a hit qualifies for downscaling and The Eon duo scaling to the primals contradicts Ruby's statement

No it doesnt. Your scan doesnt give strong evidence that he wasn't aware of the Primals existence as it seems more likely that Ruby wasn't aware of the passive change in abilities they get when they undergo Primal Reversion. And even then, feats > statements.

Seeing as how the Eon duo in base weren't instantaneously wrecked against the Primals, its not impossible for them to be in the same realm of power as the latters.

And even if this meant the base duo is to be downgraded, that still doesnt mean the mega's lose the rating when they can just rescale to the Primals from the movie and go back to 5-B (and yes, I will still agree on using the Hoopa movie when no strong reason has been given not to use it besides "PIS").

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And this from where comes from

Do you...not know what happened in the movie?

When trying to prevent Hoopa from being controlled by the Prison Bottle, it caused Hoopa to have its confined and unbound powers split apart from each other, which created a Shadow Hoopa that was fueled by bloodlust for being sealed away. Essentially a fake clone made up of Hoopa's sealed away power separated from the real Hoopa.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do you...not know what happened in the movie?

When trying to prevent Hoopa from being controlled by the Prison Bottle, it caused Hoopa to have its confined and unbound powers split apart from each other, which created a Shadow Hoopa that was fueled by bloodlust for being sealed away. Essentially a fake clone made up of Hoopa's sealed away power separated from the real Hoopa.

I ******* know what happened there lmao, only that from where does it being weaker come from

 

[Antvasima]

@Dino_Ranger_Black @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Executor_N0 @Theglassman12

What do you think about this?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

No it doesnt. Your scan doesnt give strong evidence that he wasn't aware of the Primals existence as it seems more likely that Ruby wasn't aware of the passive change in abilities they get when they undergo Primal Reversion.

I doubt that Ruby knew about their Primal Reversion. Not even Steven knew about it and Blaise considered it to be "his secret trumpcard"

Seeing as how the Eon duo in base weren't instantaneously wrecked against the Primals, its not impossible for them to be in the same realm of power as the latters.

They got stomped tho none of their attacks scratched the Primals and they got one-shot as soon as Maxie and Archie got annoyed

 

[GyroNutz]

Yeah I agree with the OP. Picking and choosing scaling from the mess that is the Hoopa movie just because it fits better with our current scaling is the definition of cherry picking. "Not instantaneously wrecked" has never been enough to downscale characters, and what Adem has shown is enough to say that the primals are far beyond the eon duo's league.