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Can Hawkeye and co scale to Wanda's Supersonic feat then? Or is Wanda faster than them?
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MCU Speed Scaling
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- #42
And what Kree do you mean?
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- #44
I'm pretty sure Vin-Tak scales to Asgardians
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- #45
Hawkeye blitzed Wanda, so he should scale to Supersonic.
Though why is post-Infinity War Wanda MHS without justification? It isn't like she kept up with Thanos or what.
Though why is post-Infinity War Wanda MHS without justification? It isn't like she kept up with Thanos or what.
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- #47
IIRC this was discussed many times but I think they considered Kree Reapers stronger than the average Kree in the end.
EDIT: Looks like the justification was Kree Reapers being called "powerful Reapers" by Hive.
EDIT: Looks like the justification was Kree Reapers being called "powerful Reapers" by Hive.
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I agree with Asura
Lower level characters being treated as faster then the higher tiers is common place in many franchises and it is ridiculous to scale them to characters with feats several thousand times greatert then them
With that logic we get Relativistic+ Batman (DCEU) and MFTL+ street tiers
It's ignoring context and the consistent treatment of these characters to place the speed so high and justifying wonky circular scaling
We should scale off of the feats the lower level characters have themselves performed
Lower level characters being treated as faster then the higher tiers is common place in many franchises and it is ridiculous to scale them to characters with feats several thousand times greatert then them
With that logic we get Relativistic+ Batman (DCEU) and MFTL+ street tiers
It's ignoring context and the consistent treatment of these characters to place the speed so high and justifying wonky circular scaling
We should scale off of the feats the lower level characters have themselves performed
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- #50
Again, there is literally no relation between speed and strength in fiction, so it isn't ridiculous to put them as fast as the god tiers if there is no contradictory evidence.
However since in this case there IS contradictory evidence, I agree.
However since in this case there IS contradictory evidence, I agree.
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- #51
I have dropped AppleLord a message asking him about the Kree stuff, since he was one of the people pushing for the AoS revisions back then.
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- #52
Btw should Wanda scale to MHS or Hawkeye/Black Widow? She is human and was blitzed by Hawkeye so I think she should scale to the latter.
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- #54
Well looking at her fight with Thanos in Endgame, she doesn't seem to keep up with Thanos at any point. And for her feat of stopping Black Panther from killing Bucky, it looks like she actually could have had a lot of time to react as Black Panther took quite a while to reveal his claws and then try to kill Bucky. Not to mention we don't know when did Scarlet Witch start to react.
I think we should put her combat speed and reactions at Supersonic, but her attack speed with her blasts at Massively Hypersonic.
I think we should put her combat speed and reactions at Supersonic, but her attack speed with her blasts at Massively Hypersonic.
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@Spino
Sounds good (what should we do with Cap tho?)
Sounds good (what should we do with Cap tho?)
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- #57
Cap would stay at MHS I think.
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Why do you say that curiously?
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Cuz Captain America has kept up with Loki, matched Ultron in terms of combat speed and even dodging his blasts, overwhelmed Iron Man hand-to-hand, fought Spider-Man, etc.
And as ByAsura said, he clearly outmatched Crossbones in terms of combat speed, and the like of Black Widow can only attack Bucky by catching him off guard.
And as ByAsura said, he clearly outmatched Crossbones in terms of combat speed, and the like of Black Widow can only attack Bucky by catching him off guard.
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- #60
Should I apply the downgrades to the characters ByAsura mentioned then?
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While some are faster than others, the difference isn't really that big. Just look at the slow-mo scene in AoU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTm0qlyCS0Q&feature=youtu.be&t=38
Bar Quicksilver, I don't think the combat speeds are that much different tbh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTm0qlyCS0Q&feature=youtu.be&t=38
Bar Quicksilver, I don't think the combat speeds are that much different tbh.
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I mean that scene itself shows some are faster then others
Thor and Ultron are slow mo when everyone else if frozen
Thor and Ultron are slow mo when everyone else if frozen
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@Spino wasn't that a weaker Ultron?
The Crossbones thing only says he's faster then Widow and Hawkboi
The Crossbones thing only says he's faster then Widow and Hawkboi
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Everyone is moving at pretty much the same speed in the clip above.
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In this clip they aren't. Iron Man is clearly slower than Ultron and Thor, while Cap is frozen.
Once slow-mo scene proves nothing. Everything else (from visual effects in The Dark World to him outright outclassing them) portrays Thor as being significantly faster, both in flight and on foot, than the others.
Once slow-mo scene proves nothing. Everything else (from visual effects in The Dark World to him outright outclassing them) portrays Thor as being significantly faster, both in flight and on foot, than the others.
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Cap fought Ultron 1v1, and even dodged the lasers that were moving quite fast in the QS scene. Cap ain't that much faster than the non-super soldiers.
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Not that much faster to justify him being MHS while the rest is Supersonic. The "regular" humans can still fight the super soldiers, only really being that outmatched due to being far weaker physically.
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I agree with Cap being lower then MHS but at the same time he's clearly superior to the other cast (Potentially he could just upscale from them)
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They've never really fought super soldiers. Black Widow did for like 2 seconds, and fought Proxima once.
Those scenes are clear outliers that cause huge problems as you get further up the scaling chain, such as human characters being extremely close to Quicksilver's feats.
Those scenes are clear outliers that cause huge problems as you get further up the scaling chain, such as human characters being extremely close to Quicksilver's feats.
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In this scene alone, for example:
https://youtu.be/wMQgSBl4Y8U
Falcon dodges Bucky's punch while surprised (I think . . .), then loses due to not being durable enough to take hits.
Suitless Tony keeps up with Bucky for a bit, then gets wrecked due to not being durable enough to take hits.
Agent 13 and Black Widow also keep up with him for a bit, then get wrecked for not being durable enough.
The issue is clearly being physically outclassed, not speed.
https://youtu.be/wMQgSBl4Y8U
Falcon dodges Bucky's punch while surprised (I think . . .), then loses due to not being durable enough to take hits.
Suitless Tony keeps up with Bucky for a bit, then gets wrecked due to not being durable enough to take hits.
Agent 13 and Black Widow also keep up with him for a bit, then get wrecked for not being durable enough.
The issue is clearly being physically outclassed, not speed.
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He almost wrapped his arms around Bucky for one second and dodged a punch. That's nowhere near enough.
Suitless Tony had an Iron Man gauntlet and basically just blocked a bullet and one attack from a blinded Bucky.
Already addressed; Black Widow kicked him for once moment, while he was totally off guard from an explosion, before getting thrown away.
Edit: I didn't see the fight scene in this clip. I concede on this one, but it's still an outlier.
Also, Captain America is never really portrayed as MHS. He literally just has these feats from scaling, and there are many anti-feats within these movies.
Suitless Tony had an Iron Man gauntlet and basically just blocked a bullet and one attack from a blinded Bucky.
Already addressed; Black Widow kicked him for once moment, while he was totally off guard from an explosion, before getting thrown away.
Edit: I didn't see the fight scene in this clip. I concede on this one, but it's still an outlier.
Also, Captain America is never really portrayed as MHS. He literally just has these feats from scaling, and there are many anti-feats within these movies.
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How does a single gauntlet amp his speed that much? His base is clearly comparable enough.
For the others, they still kept up, they still dodged blows, and even managed to get a few hits in. He's just too durable to get hurt, and can basically one-shot them with any clean hit.
For more, here Shield dude gets hits on Cap before losing to just superior strength:
https://youtu.be/jqIBGEcKhGs?t=158
He also kept up with Cap when he got the Crossbones suit (which only seemed to amp strength to me). Then you also have stuff like Hawkeye fighting Black Panther, and that scene where Black Widow was supposed to give Cap quite a decent fight.
Cap fought Thanos before Mjolnir, fought Ultron, fought Iron Man along with Bucky, fought Spiderman and blocked a blow from a pissed Thor. He's not any slower than the top tiers at this point.
For the others, they still kept up, they still dodged blows, and even managed to get a few hits in. He's just too durable to get hurt, and can basically one-shot them with any clean hit.
For more, here Shield dude gets hits on Cap before losing to just superior strength:
https://youtu.be/jqIBGEcKhGs?t=158
He also kept up with Cap when he got the Crossbones suit (which only seemed to amp strength to me). Then you also have stuff like Hawkeye fighting Black Panther, and that scene where Black Widow was supposed to give Cap quite a decent fight.
Cap fought Thanos before Mjolnir, fought Ultron, fought Iron Man along with Bucky, fought Spiderman and blocked a blow from a pissed Thor. He's not any slower than the top tiers at this point.
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Tony doesn't even land a hit on Bucky.
Falcon didn't get a hit in.
He hits him with a taser once in an elevator while his arm is fully outstretched, and Cap is finessing him for the rest of the fight. Also, he didn't keep up in the suit, I already explained this.
Cap is clearly slower than the top tiers. He can fight them and dodge their blows, but they still move faster.
Falcon didn't get a hit in.
He hits him with a taser once in an elevator while his arm is fully outstretched, and Cap is finessing him for the rest of the fight. Also, he didn't keep up in the suit, I already explained this.
Cap is clearly slower than the top tiers. He can fight them and dodge their blows, but they still move faster.
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He hits Bucky right in the face. After breaking the gun.
Still dodged a blow while seemingly surprised.
He gets two hits on Cap and dodged a punch, when he was the only one left.
You can't keep up with people if you're near supersonic and they're mhs. Bar actual speedsters, the MCU doesn't really show anyone being that much faster than the others. In this case, either everyone scales or no one does.
Still dodged a blow while seemingly surprised.
He gets two hits on Cap and dodged a punch, when he was the only one left.
You can't keep up with people if you're near supersonic and they're mhs. Bar actual speedsters, the MCU doesn't really show anyone being that much faster than the others. In this case, either everyone scales or no one does.
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While he wasn't focused, and then proceeds to move way faster than Tony can react.
One blow that wasn't intended to kill him.
Two blows in the exact same position where it wasn't really a matter of speed. Also, Cap previously dodged all their blows in an elevator.
That's not true, in many verses the differences in speed are immense, yet characters can land one blow on them. You can tell when it is and isn't an outlier by simple logic: these are ordinary humans who don't have Cap's prowess, are more often dunked on and don't have any feats on par with this.
Also, Cap, once again, basically never moves at MHS speeds.
One blow that wasn't intended to kill him.
Two blows in the exact same position where it wasn't really a matter of speed. Also, Cap previously dodged all their blows in an elevator.
That's not true, in many verses the differences in speed are immense, yet characters can land one blow on them. You can tell when it is and isn't an outlier by simple logic: these are ordinary humans who don't have Cap's prowess, are more often dunked on and don't have any feats on par with this.
Also, Cap, once again, basically never moves at MHS speeds.
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Still did it, still pushed Bucky's arm back and blocked the gun from shooting him in the face. You can't do this if your opponent is that much faster than you. Getting hit doesn't mean your opponent can blitz you, he just got down because he wasn't durable enough to take the hits.
"Hey, Falcon, it's true that I'm in Hydra Assassin mode, and I did try to punch your face so hard that I cracked concrete, but, I ain't trying to kill you, fam. luv u, bye"
The issue that everyone keeping up with everyone (in combat speed) is the norm in the MCU. Cap himself doesn't have any superior speed feats without scaling, afaik, and neither do most top tiers. They just scale to other characters.
Neither does Thanos. All scaling. >_>
"Hey, Falcon, it's true that I'm in Hydra Assassin mode, and I did try to punch your face so hard that I cracked concrete, but, I ain't trying to kill you, fam. luv u, bye"
The issue that everyone keeping up with everyone (in combat speed) is the norm in the MCU. Cap himself doesn't have any superior speed feats without scaling, afaik, and neither do most top tiers. They just scale to other characters.
Neither does Thanos. All scaling. >_>
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I'll continue this discussion tomorrow.
Bucky had just been blinded two seconds earlier.
I forgot that he was in assassin mode because Civil War is almost as forgettable as AoU, in my opinion. However, he still only dodged a single punch before being outclassed.
That's exactly my point, but Thanos doesn't really have anti-feats.
Bucky had just been blinded two seconds earlier.
I forgot that he was in assassin mode because Civil War is almost as forgettable as AoU, in my opinion. However, he still only dodged a single punch before being outclassed.
That's exactly my point, but Thanos doesn't really have anti-feats.
