[MCU] Scarlet Witch downscale

[Ptumri9]

Wanda's power is currently scaled to High 3-A at her peak, but I disagree with this scaling.

1. Multiversal scaling confutation;
Wanda's feat of destroying the Darkhold across the multiverse is a Low Complex Multiversal range feat, not an AP feat. While she reached across multiple universes to destroy copies of the book, this act didn't significantly affect any multiversal construct or showcase power on that level.

Wanda is referred to as a "multiversal threat," but this statement lacks credibility for several reasons:
Firstly, Doctor Strange admits that sorcerers "know frighteningly little about the multiverse". So, his statement should be considered as narrative hyperbole.
Secondly, these statements use dramatised phrasing and flowery language.

So there is no basis to scale Wanda to multiversal levels based on her destroying the Darkhold.

2. Mount Wundagore;
The creators use the word "maybe" in a commentary, which is speculative. This means that it would be more accurate to rephrase it as: "It is possible, though unconfirmed, that Wanda also destroyed Mount Wundagore."
Alternatively, the claim should be removed.

3. Hax Feats;
Destroying an "infinite amount of mass" does not justify High 3-A scaling. This logic is flawed. This could easily be considered an outlier or hax. Wanda has never demonstrated feats on this level outside of this one case.

This feat is more accurately scaled as an hax Low Complex Multiversal range

4. Statements credibility
Most of Wanda's statements are vague, ambiguous, or dramatized. They often lack precision or correlation to feats, which makes them unreliable.For example:
"Her power exceeds the Sorcerer Supremes". It is unclear what this means. Without specifics or a direct comparison, this statement is too vague to be definitive. Is it truly applicable to ALL Sorcerers Supreme? Agamotto is said to have known a spell that could "fracture all of reality", as mentioned in the What If... immersive story, but the "canonicality" is ambiguous. Firstly, we are not sure if this Wong is from the mainstream MCU universe, and secondly, if the What If... story was canon, then canonically it would mean that Wong can travel across the multiverse (in space and time).

That's why I don't think the MCU's statements should be taken too much into account, with certain exceptions.

5. Kamar Taj feat
Another argument is that Wanda's defeat of Kamar-Taj supports her high scaling because the sorcerers defend the world from inter-dimensional threats. However, this claim is flawed:
In Doctor Strange 1, it is shown that the protection of the world relies on the three Sanctums (Hong Kong, London, New York) which have shields that protect the world, the sorcerers protect the sanctums. Kamar-Taj, is not a Sanctum and does not directly shield the world.

6. Scaling
I support a scaling that looks like this:
7-A physically, at least 5-A with magic, probably higher.

 

[Ptumri9]

Bump

 

[Yokoahh5743]

nice try sweetie, All of this is your personal opinion and besides, you didn't provide give any scans on CRT, so you should find scan that information first and as of now there are a lot CRT about mcu out there. So I think this will be useless because of lack of scan information that you listed above or official directly confirmed

 

[Ptumri9]

nice try sweetie, All of this is your personal opinion and besides, you didn't provide give any scans on CRT, so you should find scan that information first and as of now there are a lot CRT about mcu out there. So I think this will be useless because of lack of scan information that you listed above or official directly confirmed

Your reply is rather dismissive, I was hoping for a more constructive response. I omitted the scans because my debate is based on logic rather than new evidence. There would be no need to reintroduce material that is most likely already known for many of these basic things.

My post wasn’t just “personal opinions”, the entire point was to logically highlight the flaws in previous CRTs and to “introduce” an analysis of why many scaling arguments are flawd

 

[DivineCreator389]

Wanda's power is currently scaled to High 3-A at her peak, but I disagree with this scaling.

1. Multiversal scaling confutation;
Wanda's feat of destroying the Darkhold across the multiverse is a Low Complex Multiversal range feat, not an AP feat. While she reached across multiple universes to destroy copies of the book, this act didn't significantly affect any multiversal construct or showcase power on that level.

She is H3-A due to destroying the Darkhold across all infinite universes, but she doesn't directly threaten the Multiverse.

Wanda is referred to as a "multiversal threat," but this statement lacks credibility for several reasons:
Firstly, Doctor Strange admits that sorcerers "know frighteningly little about the multiverse". So, his statement should be considered as narrative hyperbole.
Secondly, these statements use dramatised phrasing and flowery language.

At first , I didn't agree with Scarlet Witch was a Multiversal threat, but after seeing the What If Season 2 version of her, who can slow down the incursion, and the Infinity Scarlet Witch from What If: Apple Vision Pro, who stated to damage the Multiverse even without the Infinity Stones, I changed my mind. In MOM her power, amplified by the Darkhold.. especially through Dreamwalking, which causes incursions... makes her a credible Multiversal threat, especially after destroying the Darkhold.

So there is no basis to scale Wanda to multiversal levels based on her destroying the Darkhold.

2. Mount Wundagore;
The creators use the word "maybe" in a commentary, which is speculative. This means that it would be more accurate to rephrase it as: "It is possible, though unconfirmed, that Wanda also destroyed Mount Wundagore."
Alternatively, the claim should be removed.

3. Hax Feats;
Destroying an "infinite amount of mass" does not justify High 3-A scaling. This logic is flawed. This could easily be considered an outlier or hax. Wanda has never demonstrated feats on this level outside of this one case.

How??

This feat is more accurately scaled as an hax Low Complex Multiversal range

4. Statements credibility
Most of Wanda's statements are vague, ambiguous, or dramatized. They often lack precision or correlation to feats, which makes them unreliable.For example:
"Her power exceeds the Sorcerer Supremes". It is unclear what this means. Without specifics or a direct comparison, this statement is too vague to be definitive. Is it truly applicable to ALL Sorcerers Supreme? Agamotto is said to have known a spell that could "fracture all of reality", as mentioned in the What If... immersive story, but the "canonicality" is ambiguous. Firstly, we are not sure if this Wong is from the mainstream MCU universe, and secondly, if the What If... story was canon, then canonically it would mean that Wong can travel across the multiverse (in space and time).

We don't know if Scarlet Witch is superior to every Sorcerer Supreme that ever existed, but it's clear she's stronger than Wong.

But.. perhaps.. with more knowledge..Wanda(616) could potentially reach the level of other versions of herself from What If..., who show the potential to surpass all Sorcerer Supremes in raw power.

That's why I don't think the MCU's statements should be taken too much into account, with certain exceptions.

5. Kamar Taj feat
Another argument is that Wanda's defeat of Kamar-Taj supports her high scaling because the sorcerers defend the world from inter-dimensional threats. However, this claim is flawed:
In Doctor Strange 1, it is shown that the protection of the world relies on the three Sanctums (Hong Kong, London, New York) which have shields that protect the world, the sorcerers protect the sanctums. Kamar-Taj, is not a Sanctum and does not directly shield the world.

Don't underestimate the power of Eldritch Magic Protection Spells! They're incredibly strong.

In What If... Season 1, Wong and Doctor Strange prepared Protection Spell which is powerful enough to took a damage from Doctor Strange Supreme.

6. Scaling
I support a scaling that looks like this:
7-A physically, at least 5-A with magic, probably higher.

Nope. But I can go with 7-A physically, at least 5-A, likely far higher with Magic, possibly H3-A at peak.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Wanda's power is currently scaled to High 3-A at her peak, but I disagree with this scaling.

1. Multiversal scaling confutation;
Wanda's feat of destroying the Darkhold across the multiverse is a Low Complex Multiversal range feat, not an AP feat. While she reached across multiple universes to destroy copies of the book, this act didn't significantly affect any multiversal construct or showcase power on that level.

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. - Tiering System

2. Mount Wundagore;
The creators use the word "maybe" in a commentary, which is speculative. This means that it would be more accurate to rephrase it as: "It is possible, though unconfirmed, that Wanda also destroyed Mount Wundagore."
Alternatively, the claim should be removed.

If the creators didn't explicitly say "No." there is absolutely no reason for us to discredit that claim. The simplest way to look at it is that the creators were trying to put up a smokescreen, avoiding a categoric "Yes." that could potentially mess up with future projects.

3. Hax Feats;
Destroying an "infinite amount of mass" does not justify High 3-A scaling. This logic is flawed. This could easily be considered an outlier or hax. Wanda has never demonstrated feats on this level outside of this one case.

This feat is more accurately scaled as an hax Low Complex Multiversal range

What ? This was literally Wanda's peak and the last time we saw her, did you want her to perform a High 3-A feat in Age of Ultron?

4. Statements credibility
Most of Wanda's statements are vague, ambiguous, or dramatized. They often lack precision or correlation to feats, which makes them unreliable.For example:
"Her power exceeds the Sorcerer Supremes". It is unclear what this means. Without specifics or a direct comparison, this statement is too vague to be definitive. Is it truly applicable to ALL Sorcerers Supreme? Agamotto is said to have known a spell that could "fracture all of reality", as mentioned in the What If... immersive story, but the "canonicality" is ambiguous. Firstly, we are not sure if this Wong is from the mainstream MCU universe, and secondly, if the What If... story was canon, then canonically it would mean that Wong can travel across the multiverse (in space and time).

That's why I don't think the MCU's statements should be taken too much into account, with certain exceptions.

This is literally a statement from the Darkhold itself, it shouldn't be regarded as ambiguous or vague, knowing how much power is confined in that book. Also directly sourced from Agatha Harkness, which has been wandering the Earth for like what, 6 centuries? Completely disagree. The only thing you've really done here is reinforce Wanda's position, if Wong is already considered inferior to Wanda and that he possesses knowledge on such a scale, who knows how powerful Wanda really is?

5. Kamar Taj feat
Another argument is that Wanda's defeat of Kamar-Taj supports her high scaling because the sorcerers defend the world from inter-dimensional threats. However, this claim is flawed:
In Doctor Strange 1, it is shown that the protection of the world relies on the three Sanctums (Hong Kong, London, New York) which have shields that protect the world, the sorcerers protect the sanctums. Kamar-Taj, is not a Sanctum and does not directly shield the world.

Yes, but not only? Do you think the Sorcerers that reside in Kamar-Taj are just posers? They play a part in defending the world as seen countless of times.

6. Scaling
I support a scaling that looks like this:
7-A physically, at least 5-A with magic, probably higher.

I disagree.

 

[Ptumri9]

First of all, I appreciate the actually constructive response. I just had to say that.

Now to the points.

She is H3-A due to destroying the Darkhold across all infinite universes, but she doesn't directly threaten the Multiverse.

I just wanted to rule out any scaling at or above multiversal in the first place.

At first , I didn't agree with Scarlet Witch was a Multiversal threat, but after seeing the What If Season 2 version of her, who can slow down the incursion, and the Infinity Scarlet Witch from What If: Apple Vision Pro, who stated to damage the Multiverse even without the Infinity Stones, I changed my mind. In MOM her power, amplified by the Darkhold.. especially through Dreamwalking, which causes incursions... makes her a credible Multiversal threat, especially after destroying the Darkhold.

I don't see the correlation between the different versions of the Scarlet Witch and the 616, these are alternate universes, the feats there don't apply to the 616 Scarlet Witch. Incursions happen because dreamwalking inherently weakens the barrier between universes, not because of Wanda's AP itself. Moreover, the only other "multiversal threat" in the MCU is a being who became aware of the 5th dimension, broke through the 4th wall, then defeated the Watcher, and was confirmed to be able to destroy universes by punching. Is Wanda, who struggles to reach other universes or even to travel between them, really comparable to him?

How??

The main problem is consistency. Wanda has never shown anything close to this level of power, not even at her peak in DS:MoM when she was amped by the Darkhold. The destruction of the Darkhold, at this point, is better categorised as a hax or an outlier.

We don't know if Scarlet Witch is superior to every Sorcerer Supreme that ever existed, but it's clear she's stronger than Wong.

But.. perhaps.. with more knowledge..Wanda(616) could potentially reach the level of other versions of herself from What If..., who show the potential to surpass all Sorcerer Supremes in raw power.

It's definitely true that Wanda probably has a lot of room to grow in power. However, power scaling is based on objective feats, not hypothetical potential.

Don't underestimate the power of Eldritch Magic Protection Spells! They're incredibly strong.

In What If... Season 1, Wong and Doctor Strange prepared Protection Spell which is powerful enough to took a damage from Doctor Strange Supreme.

It's true that the protective spell was able to withstand the attacks of the pre-fusion Doctor Strange Supreme, but how can we be sure it's the same kind of spell? Also, would a being with Universal+ AP realistically struggle to destroy a shield powered by a group of students?

Nope. But I can go with 7-A physically, at least 5-A, likely far higher with Magic, possibly H3-A at peak.

Adding "possibly" would make it a much more reasonable scale, in my opinion.

 

[Ptumri9]

If the creators didn't explicitly say "No." there is absolutely no reason for us to discredit that claim. The simplest way to look at it is that the creators were trying to put up a smokescreen, avoiding a categoric "Yes." that could potentially mess up with future projects.

That's acceptable.

What ? This was literally Wanda's peak and the last time we saw her, did you want her to perform a High 3-A feat in Age of Ultron?

I'll repeat what I said in the previous reply: The main issue is one of consistency. Wanda has never shown anything close to this level of power, not even at her peak in DS:MoM when she was amped by the Darkhold. The destruction of the Darkhold at that point is better classified as a hax or an outlier. I didn't say Wanda needed to have high 3A AP in Age of Ultron, I just pointed out the inconsistency of scaling a character so much higher based on a single isolated case without repeated or supporting feats. This is considerable an outlier/hax, and that is undeniable.

This is literally a statement from the Darkhold itself, it shouldn't be regarded as ambiguous or vague, knowing how much power is confined in that book. Also directly sourced from Agatha Harkness, which has been wandering the Earth for like what, 6 centuries? Completely disagree. The only thing you've really done here is reinforce Wanda's position, if Wong is already considered inferior to Wanda and that he possesses knowledge on such a scale, who knows how powerful Wanda really is?

Just because the Darkhold is a source of great power doesn't mean that every statement it makes should be taken at face value. Agatha Harkness being centuries old is irrelevant. Wanda being stronger than Wong doesn't necessarily mean she's a high 3A. The statement is vague and ambiguous. The fact that she's from the Darkhold doesn't make it clear when it's objectively vague.

 

[Hixkaryana]

I'll repeat what I said in the previous reply: The main issue is one of consistency. Wanda has never shown anything close to this level of power, not even at her peak in DS:MoM when she was amped by the Darkhold. The destruction of the Darkhold at that point is better classified as a hax or an outlier. I didn't say Wanda needed to have high 3A AP in Age of Ultron, I just pointed out the inconsistency of scaling a character so much higher based on a single isolated case without repeated or supporting feats. This is considerable an outlier/hax, and that is undeniable.

Her H3-A feat was literally when she was amped by the Darkhold. That is a good enough reason for her to have a sudden upgrade in tier. When you have a feat that’s clear cut and that follows a narratively correct continuity, you take it as granted.

Just because the Darkhold is a source of great power doesn't mean that every statement it makes should be taken at face value. Agatha Harkness being centuries old is irrelevant. Wanda being stronger than Wong doesn't necessarily mean she's a high 3A. The statement is vague and ambiguous. The fact that she's from the Darkhold doesn't make it clear when it's objectively vague.

Agatha studied the Darkhold to perfection. She knows what is bound to happen simply by reading it, she could quite accurately predict that Wanda was the Scarlet Witch before even meeting her, all thanks to the Darkhold. So I’ll just refute that by saying, yes, we should take every statement coming from it at face value. And besides, this statement isn’t even needed in this case, it’s supported by an extremely viable feat. As for the Wong statement, I don’t care much about it, I mean as you said it’s vague and it comes from a different Wong than the one in the main timeline.

 

[Yokoahh5743]

Scan are still necessary for downgrade or upgrade, no matter what logic you use, if statements or information from director or official are still important to CRT, then staff cannot upgrade just because of logic that only you can see. with it Your logic isn't 100% correct, so it requires more evidence more than just logic

 

[DivineCreator389]

I don't see the correlation between the different versions of the Scarlet Witch and the 616, these are alternate universes, the feats there don't apply to the 616 Scarlet Witch.

They share the same power, 'Chaos Magic,' and the same prophecy as in Deadpool 3. The movie also features the Scarlet Witch's statue prophecy, crafted at Mount Wundagore (The Void).

Incursions happen because dreamwalking inherently weakens the barrier between universes, not because of Wanda's AP itself. Moreover, the only other "multiversal threat" in the MCU is a being who became aware of the 5th dimension, broke through the 4th wall, then defeated the Watcher, and was confirmed to be able to destroy universes by punching. Is Wanda, who struggles to reach other universes or even to travel between them, really comparable to him?

Being a multiversal threat doesn't mean you're a 5th-dimensional being. I never said that. My point is that in her 'peak' state, the Scarlet Witch could cause an incursion via the Darkhold (environmental destruction). She has the power to destroy infinite mass (like the Darkhold) across the Multiverse, which is why she’s a multiversal threat.

The main problem is consistency. Wanda has never shown anything close to this level of power, not even at her peak in DS:MoM when she was amped by the Darkhold. The destruction of the Darkhold, at this point, is better categorised as a hax or an outlier.

How is that an outlier when it has already happened and been discussed by the director, writer, and even the official Marvel website? And here is a reason why it isn't a hax.

It's definitely true that Wanda probably has a lot of room to grow in power. However, power scaling is based on objective feats, not hypothetical potential.

It's true that the protective spell was able to withstand the attacks of the pre-fusion Doctor Strange Supreme, but how can we be sure it's the same kind of spell?

Eldritch Magic is powerful for protection spells, such as the protection spell across the globe which defending against interdimensional beings, or the shield Doctor Strange used to hold Dormammu's attack for a while.

Also, would a being with Universal+ AP realistically struggle to destroy a shield powered by a group of students?

They're not students , where did you get this from? And she's being H3-A when she's at the Mount Wundagore.

Adding "possibly" would make it a much more reasonable scale, in my opinion.

Ok.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Just as a side note, adding a « Possibly » would be impossible, as there is a feat that confirms the tier. This kind of denotation is mainly used when there are multiple statements hinting at a tier or when a feat is unclear.

 

[DivineCreator389]

Just as a side note, adding a « Possibly » would be impossible, as there is a feat that confirms the tier. This kind of denotation is mainly used when there are multiple statements hinting at a tier or when a feat is unclear.

Ok, sry about that.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Ok, sry about that.

No need to apologize just saying!

 

[FentyBeauty]

Wanda's power is currently scaled to High 3-A at her peak, but I disagree with this scaling.

1. Multiversal scaling confutation;
Wanda's feat of destroying the Darkhold across the multiverse is a Low Complex Multiversal range feat, not an AP feat. While she reached across multiple universes to destroy copies of the book, this act didn't significantly affect any multiversal construct or showcase power on that level.

you dont need to affect a multiversal structure to have multiversal range, u can have attacks spanning across that structure which qualifies for range

Wanda is referred to as a "multiversal threat," but this statement lacks credibility for several reasons:.

we never used her being labeled as a ‘multiversal threat’ as a justification

2. Mount Wundagore;
The creators use the word "maybe" in a commentary, which is speculative. This means that it would be more accurate to rephrase it as: "It is possible, though unconfirmed, that Wanda also destroyed Mount Wundagore."
Alternatively, the claim should be removed.

fair enough but i mean it could still support that tier and the darkhold feat

3. Hax Feats;
Destroying an "infinite amount of mass" does not justify High 3-A scaling. This logic is flawed. This could easily be considered an outlier or hax. Wanda has never demonstrated feats on this level outside of this one case.

This feat is more accurately scaled as an hax Low Complex Multiversal range

i mean.. her powers got a massive jump considering how she became the scarlet witch (literally having full control of her powers when she had that issue in previous movies), read the darkhold which itself is an amplification totem (to also learn abt her powers), also absorbed all of agatha’s dark magic and lord knows how powerful agatha was, so i don’t see how it’s weird for her to do something more powerful than what she has usually done before when she did become more powerful

“Her power exceeds the Sorcerer Supremes". It is unclear what this means. Without specifics or a direct comparison, this statement is too vague to be definitive. Is it truly applicable to ALL Sorcerers Supreme? Agamotto is said to have known a spell that could "fracture all of reality", as mentioned in the What If... immersive story, but the "canonicality" is ambiguous. Firstly, we are not sure if this Wong is from the mainstream MCU universe, and secondly, if the What If... story was canon, then canonically it would mean that Wong can travel across the multiverse (in space and time).

That's why I don't think the MCU's statements should be taken too much into account, with certain exceptions.

5. Kamar Taj feat
Another argument is that Wanda's defeat of Kamar-Taj supports her high scaling because the sorcerers defend the world from inter-dimensional threats. However, this claim is flawed:
In Doctor Strange 1, it is shown that the protection of the world relies on the three Sanctums (Hong Kong, London, New York) which have shields that protect the world, the sorcerers protect the sanctums. Kamar-Taj, is not a Sanctum and does not directly shield the world.

i’m pretty sure these were just used as supporting arguments in a previous crt to upgrade wanda, it was never used as a justification either and i understand why they shouldn’t be used

It’s true that the protective spell was able to withstand the attacks of the pre-fusion Doctor Strange Supreme, but how can we be sure it's the same kind of spell? Also, would a being with Universal+ AP realistically struggle to destroy a shield powered by a group of students?

uhm we discussed in a crt that she was at her peak when destroying the darkhold so no she did not have high 3-A AP when fighting the sorcerers

the whole argument for her scaling was that she was empowered by the darkhold, and as we know the darkhold got spells that allows ppl to reach universes with their magic, so like we clarified that she could only be capable of pulling that kind of feat if she were to be amped by the darkhold (which she was bc she was at the darkhold castle), and plotwise - she ALSO broke free of the darkhold’s corruption and wanted to get rid of the darkhold for good, so it would make sense she wouldn’t use these kinds of powers beforehand bc she was corrupted for almost the entire movie and focused on getting america chavez bc the darkhold made her believe that she was her solution to getting her kids

so when she was planning to destroy the darkhold she was at her peak bc she literally stops going psycho and realizes her mistakes and uses the dark magic from the darkhold to destroy the other ones and we know that the darkhold gives her the range to do so, so she’s like High 3-A bc of that

 

[Ptumri9]

You make valid points. I have to admit that Wanda, at her peak, while amped by the Darkhold, can indeed scale to high 3-A. However, this is highly situational and directly related to the amplification of the Darkhold. Would a scaling like this work:

“7-A physically, at least 5-A, likely far higher with magic, up to High 3-A at peak while amped by the Darkhold (which serves as a powerful amplification totem, significantly enhancing its user’s abilities).”

 

[Ptumri9]

On a side note, should Doctor Strange receive an upgrade for defeating a comparable variant of himself who possessed the Darkhold and was thus amplified by it?

 

[DivineCreator389]

On a side note, should Doctor Strange receive an upgrade for defeating a comparable variant of himself who possessed the Darkhold and was thus amplified by it?

You missed the point. You said Wanda shouldn't be H3-A bc she couldn't break the Masters of the Mystic Arts' shield, but at that time, she wasn't H3-A. Now, you're suggesting Doctor Strange should scale to Sinister Strange? Wanda became H3-A bc of the Darkhold (and prophecy) , which was created specifically for her and tied to her prophecy of either ruling or annihilating the cosmos. That's why she's H3-A, and other that's used the Darkhold aren't.

maybe they could scale to 2-C upto 2-A via Environmental Destruction, due to the Dreamwalking spells could cause an incursion.

 

[FentyBeauty]

You missed the point. You said Wanda shouldn't be H3-A bc she couldn't break the Masters of the Mystic Arts' shield, but at that time, she wasn't H3-A. Now, you're suggesting Doctor Strange should scale to Sinister Strange? Wanda became H3-A bc of the Darkhold (and prophecy) , which was created specifically for her and tied to her prophecy of either ruling or annihilating the cosmos. That's why she's H3-A, and other that's used the Darkhold aren't.

they’re saying that since she was amped by the darkhold, those who have read from the darkhold could be capable of being as powerful as she is

im not sure about that but i’ll wait for what other people think because so far that could mess up scaling

agatha as High 3-A bc she has the darkhold would make scarlet witch in wandavision more significantly powerful than her since she absorbed her power and before that she was already potentially more powerful than her, which would make multiverse of madness wanda even more stronger since she’d also have the darkhold and then however powerful wanda was would go back and forth with agatha again being equal to M.O.M scarlet witch and wandavision scarlet witch being more powerful than that, so basically it’d be a loop

if we’d also have strange being High 3-A from defeating sinister strange, it wouldn’t make sense if he were to be equal to wanda considering the moments he had when fighting her and the statements from agatha and wong themselves

maybe they could scale to 2-C upto 2-A via Environmental Destruction, due to the Dreamwalking spells could cause an incursion.

they cant get environmental destruction because dreamwalking doesnt directly cause the incursions, it’s from people being in other universes that they don’t belong to which reed stated that it could erode the boundaries between universes which could damage either or both of where they’re from

would we give doctor strange just bc he went to another universe and caused the universe to slowly die just because he’s physically there? or even monica if she actually ends up causing an incursion in the universe shes in although thats hypothetical

 

[DivineCreator389]

they cant get environmental destruction because dreamwalking doesnt directly cause the incursions, it’s from people being in other universes that they don’t belong to which reed stated that it could erode the boundaries between universes which could damage either or both of where they’re from

would we give doctor strange just bc he went to another universe and caused the universe to slowly die just because he’s physically there? or even monica if she actually ends up causing an incursion in the universe shes in although thats hypothetical

I think it's a cost of the spell bc, as you said, an incursion happens when people are in universe they don't belong in, which causes the incursion.
The Darkhold works differently. If you possess your body from another universe, it doesn't cause an incursion, but if you tamper with the natural timeline, it disrupts the balance of the universes and weakens the barrier between them. That's why it's different from a normal incursion. As Mordo stated the spell is a desecration of reality itself.

 

[Hixkaryana]

I don’t think anybody should scale to H3-A from reading the Darkhold. The Scarlet Witch has always been a special character, further proven by the fact that she has a full chapter dedicated to her powers inside it. And, I also don’t think using « While amped by the Darkhold » is right for her tier, she simply reached her climax as a character, turning into her true form. This would also create a gazillion scaling issues as mentioned above with everyone that has ever read it. And also correct me if I’m wrong but, Wanda used her own raw power to destroy it, so it wouldn’t make sense to scale anyone to her current tier.

 

[FentyBeauty]

I think it's a cost of the spell bc, as you said, an incursion happens when people are in universe they don't belong in, which causes the incursion.
The Darkhold works differently. If you possess your body from another universe, it doesn't cause an incursion, but if you tamper with the natural timeline, it disrupts the balance of the universes and weakens the barrier between them. That's why it's different from a normal incursion. As Mordo stated the spell is a desecration of reality itself.

it’s a cost of dreamwalking because going to another universe will end up destroying that universe

mordo saying that its a desecration of reality is just saying that those that use the spell r literally violating reality/natural law itself for traversing to another universe which they’re not supposed to

mordo even says that dreamwalking itself can cause irreparable damage to the universe they invade so i dont see how thats different from a normal incursion nor how there are differences between those incursions when incursions are just the boundaries between universes being eroded

so honrstly i don’t think it could count as environmental destruction just because they can dreamwalk as its more related to the consequences of being there in another universe rather than the spell directly doing something to the universe itself

but anyways its best not to discuss this here since its abt wanda’s high 3-A scaling so ima stop

 

[FentyBeauty]

I don’t think anybody should scale to H3-A from reading the Darkhold. The Scarlet Witch has always been a special character, further proven by the fact that she has a full chapter dedicated to her powers inside it. And, I also don’t think using « While amped by the Darkhold » is right for her tier, she simply reached her climax as a character, turning into her true form. This would also create a gazillion scaling issues as mentioned above with everyone that has ever read it. And also correct me if I’m wrong but, Wanda used her own raw power to destroy it, so it wouldn’t make sense to scale anyone to her current tier.

also like even the ap of the complete infinity gauntlet varies too since thanos got only at least 3-A from him planning to disintegrate the universe with them and infinity ultron got low 1-C with the stones for whatever is on his profile

so we could treat that similarly to like how infinity stones vary by user when it comes to the darkhold

 

[Hixkaryana]

also like even the ap of the complete infinity gauntlet varies too since thanos got only at least 3-A from him planning to disintegrate the universe with them and infinity ultron got low 1-C with the stones for whatever is on his profile

so we could treat that similarly to like how infinity stones vary by user

Right right!