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MCU Phase 5 General Discussion Thread

So the current statuses of pre-Disney+ Marvel Television shows seems to be:
  • Netflix shows: indicated as canon by multiple sources at this point
  • Agent Carter: described as canon by the The Story of Marvel Studios: The Making of the Marvel Cinematic Universe book
  • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: The Wakanda Files and the Marvel website profile for Nick Fury suggest that at least the first season is canon, unclear beyond that
  • Inhumans: unclear, Anson Mount coming back to play Earth-838 Black Bolt doesn't really prove anything on its own
  • Runaways: unclear (was removed from both Hulu and Disney+)
  • Cloak and Dagger: unclear (was apparently very briefly referenced in the Luke Cage series)
 
Some noteworthy tidbits from the Moon Knight artbook:
  • Steven is stated to have woken up with a dislocated jaw in episode 1, not a broken jaw as his profile currently states. Not sure if that would impact him having Regeneration in his base key or not.
  • There are multiple statements making it clear that Khonshu is intended to be past his prime and not as powerful as he used to be by the time the series takes place.
  • Floor plans are provided for the Chamber of the Gods, including the statue room. Not sure if that would make it easier for someone to calculate Arthur Harrow's pillar busting feat, which took place in that room.
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Can someone explain to me why are the Infinity Stones Tier 1 all around, even though they are different across each universe?
 
Just realized something about episode 6. Since they decided to go for the Fountain of Youth myth x Infinity Stone combo, wouldn't it have been good to use another Stone? Seriously, ever since the MCU began, it's always been the Tesseract. There SIX Infinity Stones, yet for whatever reason writers always go for the Space Stone. I mean, it's very cool but another Stone could have brought use more variety. Like, imagine if they used the Time Stone or the Reality Stone? Heck, we could have used the Soul Stone! Thematically, this could have been great and we could have had a character with Soul Stone-based powers, this would have been much more interested (right now, aside from portals and not flying, Kahhori has the same powerset as Carol). We could have had the Soul Stone in action for once

That's of course taking aside the controversy and accusation of racism from the episode but that's another spot
 
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What are the accusations? Are people upset because they see it as a stereotypical representation or are people upset because it called out colonialization?
 
According to Bryan Andrews, Peggy was shielded by Kahhori while she was using the Infinity Stones without any protection
 
Revan_Laha said:
According to Bryan Andrews, Peggy was shielded by Kahhori while she was using the Infinity Stones without any protection
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This feels like a damage control statement lmao. I feel like they definitely could've made it clearer why Carter didn't get insta fried as soon as she laid fingers on the stone.
 
Also, I finally got around to binge watching all the episodes. That finale was... painful to say the least. S1's finale was also terrible with how Infinity Ultron took the L but at least the episode was good for the most part until that point.

Some of the episodes were done pretty nicely but I think those episodes are in the minority. A lot of these are filled with insanely uninteresting scenarios that no one really cares for like hogan saving Christmas, 1602 Avengers (especially when they're really not that different at all), or Captain Carter vs the Hydra stomper. There are infinitely better scenarios or potential episodes that the writers hate taking up for some reason.

If I had to rank the episodes:
1-5 I found to be either good or bearable, anything after that was boring or awful
  1. Hela finds the Rings (Enjoyed the twist on portraying Odin's manipulative behaviors and seeing Hela's character move on from it)
  2. Kahhori's origin story (solid story all around)
  3. Peter Quill Celestial (Best team assembled this season)
  4. Tony on Skarr (Nice premise, somewhat boring execution)
  5. Nova Corp Nebula (Boring premise, okay execution)
  6. Hulk Hogan (joke episode)
  7. 1602 Avengers (Interesting premise but failed so hard. Literally just the avengers but if they spoke like shakespeare and had moderately inferior tech. Why the **** do they have Pym Particles?)
  8. Hydra Stomper (This episode was kinda just boring)
  9. Strange Supreme's character regression (no explaination needed)

In terms of power scaling, I think we should be able to scale up Strange Supreme's durability up after taking an infinity stone smack to the face like that, even if it did knock out his demon side. Plus he was taking hits throughout the episode anyways.

Also this might be headcanon, but I feel like we can say that Infinity Ultron is still > Infinity Peggy, at the very least before Peggy got the other mystical items. Just when considering that Ultron still can probably utilize the stone better since his AI connection with them plus considering the way that Infinity Ultron stacked up against Strange vs how Carter stacked up to strange even if its likely that Strange became stronger in between.

I'm not even gonna think about Kahhori's scaling.
 
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Valiant_Abyss said:
What are the accusations? Are people upset because they see it as a stereotypical representation or are people upset because it called out colonialization?
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It's mainly Hispanoamericans. A good portion of them didn't like how the Spanish were portrayed as almost entirely without any redeeming factors (the only moment I can think of as not like this is when the main conquistador offers his soldiers to take the first dip in what he thinks is the Fountain of Youth and is genuinely horrified when he sees them dying) and the fact the Spanish never even met the Mohawk in real life, with some outright accusing the MCU of glossing over the fact the British and to an extent the French, were the perpetrators of colonization against the Natives. The worst part might be Queen Isabella ; in real life, she was adamently against slavery over natives, to the point she passed laws forbidding the act and outright banned it (In her testamentary dispositions, she instructed her heirs: 'Do not allow or permit that the Indians, residents and inhabitants of the said Indies and Mainland, both conquered and to be conquered, suffer any harm to their persons or property, but command that they be treated well and justly' (codicil of November 23, 1504)."). So basically, the absolute opposite of the uber-racist "all europeans are colonialists" stereotyope we have here. Especially since Queen Isabella is particulary liked in Spain, in part because she fought slavery unlike most other european leaders at the time. To represent her as an evil colonialist is essentially the same thing as representing Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King as greedy, mass murdering psychopaths in terms of levels of insult.
There's also the "alternate universe/history" argument but that's a very bad argument when you realize that means it's okay to change history to show spaniards as evil but doing it with black people would be bad, which is (understandably)seen as raw hypocrisy.

It certainly doesn't help that there's been a hot debate about Hispanoamericans representation and discriminations going on, with a LOT of them accusing medias and tons of people to downplay racism against latinos or spaniards and behaving like their stereotypical depictions is less harmful than stereotypes against black people, essentially establishing a hierarchy between discriminations and implying some forms of racism are less harmful and therefore don't matter as much as others (in short, that would mean racism against black people = bad but racism against Latinos and Hispanoamericans is ok or at least not bad enough to care). Not to mention stuff like calling them "latinix" (most Latinos DESPISE this) or the fact the spanish word for black is "*****" and some americans outright said the spanish language should be changed because it's offensive (try to say that to a spaniard and your mother being insulted is probably the nicest thing you'll hear from them). Essentially, Hispanoamericans are more and more annoyed of how they're portrayed and to see that apparently, discrimination against them is not as bad as other forms (and unfortunately, it appears some people genuinely have this mindset).

Aside from that, a few also accused the episode of mixing Native Americans as if they were a single culture and there was no nuances or different beliefs, notably with the sky bull scenes (bulls are NOT part of Mohawk traditions)
 
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ArkhamDC06 said:
It's mainly Hispanoamericans. A good portion of them didn't like how the Spanish were portrayed as almost entirely without any redeeming factors (the only moment I can think of as not like this is when the main conquistador offers his soldiers to take the first dip in what he thinks is the Fountain of Youth and is genuinely horrified when he sees them dying) and the fact the Spanish never even met the Mohawk in real life, with some outright accusing the MCU of glossing over the fact the British and to an extent the French, were the perpetrators of colonization against the Natives. The worst part might be Queen Isabella ; in real life, she was adamently against slavery over natives, to the point she passed laws forbidding the act and outright banned it (In her testamentary dispositions, she instructed her heirs: 'Do not allow or permit that the Indians, residents and inhabitants of the said Indies and Mainland, both conquered and to be conquered, suffer any harm to their persons or property, but command that they be treated well and justly' (codicil of November 23, 1504)."). So basically, the absolute opposite of the uber-racist "all europeans are colonialists" stereotyope we have here. Especially since Queen Isabella is particulary liked in Spain, in part because she fought slavery unlike most other european leaders at the time. To represent her as an evil colonialist is essentially the same thing as representing Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King as greedy, mass murdering psychopaths in terms of levels of insult.
There's also the "alternate universe/history" argument but that's a very bad argument when you realize that means it's okay to change history to show spaniards as evil but doing it with black people would be bad, which is (understandably)seen as raw hypocrisy.

It certainly doesn't help that there's been a hot debate about Hispanoamericans representation and discriminations going on, with a LOT of them accusing medias and tons of people to downplay racism against latinos or spaniards and behaving like their stereotypical depictions is less harmful than stereotypes against black people, essentially establishing a hierarchy between discriminations and implying some forms of racism are less harmful and therefore don't matter as much as others (in short, that would mean racism against black people = bad but racism against Latinos and Hispanoamericans is ok or at least not bad enough to care). Not to mention stuff like calling them "latinix" (most Latinos DESPISE this) or the fact the spanish word for black is "*****" and some americans outright said the spanish language should be changed because it's offensive (try to say that to a spaniard and your mother being insulted is probably the nicest thing you'll hear from them). Essentially, Hispanoamericans are more and more annoyed of how they're portrayed and to see that apparently, discrimination against them is not as bad as other forms (and unfortunately, it appears some people genuinely have this mindset).

Aside from that, a few also accused the episode of mixing Native Americans as if they were a single culture and there was no nuances or different beliefs, notably with the sky bull scenes (bulls are NOT part of Mohawk traditions)
Click to expand...
All I’m gonna say on this is I truly do not think it’s that deep. This is coming from somebody with family from Spain, being Hispanic isn’t an ethnicity like being Latino or black so most of these arguments don’t apply the way you’re saying they would if it was the other way around. There does seem to be some simplifications of history in the episode like what you mentioned about how Native Americans are represented but I don’t think to the degree that it could be seen as offensive. That’s just my view on it
 
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Lacku said:
All I’m gonna say on this is I truly do not think it’s that deep. This is coming from somebody with family from Spain, being Hispanic isn’t an ethnicity like being Latino or black so most of these arguments don’t apply the way you’re saying they would if it was the other way around.
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Doesn't change the fact a historical figure known for having fought racism and outright banned it is somehow turned into an uber-racist for basically no reason. Again, imagine if a beloved black figure was turned like this. I don't think there was racism in the mind of the writers but I do think there's some hypocrisy on how discriminations is handled. Like you, it's just my point of view but I also have friends from Spain, one of which is a student in history, and they were annoyed at best and outright despised it at worst when they saw that a beloved historical figure from their country was reduced to a stereotypical slaver even though she fought against slavery itself

As for the other way around, this might be controversial but I think there shouldn't be a big difference between discriminations. Yes, there is always a context to reflect on, events to judge and build on but still. To me, the stereotype of the sleezy, lazy alcoholic mexican should be seen as equally bad as a black face. If we start making a hierarchy, it will just cause more problems
Lacku said:
There does seem to be some simplifications of history in the episode like what you mentioned about how Native Americans are represented but I don’t think to the degree that it could be seen as offensive. That’s just my view on it
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It's probably just ignorance but to whoever is well-versed (at least to a degree) in this kind of stuff, it can be quite jarring. It's just weird that the writers took care of making the characters speak in genuine native language and had real Mohwak people voice them but didn't pay attention to those details. It's like when Supernatural showed Kali, a Hindu goddess, eating meat (more precisely, human meat from sacrifices) when she's a vegetarian. That kind of mistakes is kind of weird
 
NeoKingOfLight said:
People really don’t understand what racism is or what constitutes racism, but always want to use it… 🤦‍♂️
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Yeah true. Though I do tend to agree with Latinos and hispanics complaining about a form of hypocrisy. Asians also seem to go through that, especially after Covid. Bottom line, an awful lot of people tend to think some forms of racism are less important than others and I wholly disagree with that
 
Forgive me for my lack of knowledge on Spanish history, but if Isabella was so against poor treatment and enslavement of the natives, why was Columbus promoted and rewarded heavily upon returning to Spain? From my minute google search efforts it seems like he was only arrested in 1500 during his 3rd voyage for "mismanagement"
 
Valiant_Abyss said:
Forgive me for my lack of knowledge on Spanish history, but if Isabella was so against poor treatment and enslavement of the natives, why was Columbus promoted and rewarded heavily upon returning to Spain? From my minute google search efforts it seems like he was only arrested in 1500 during his 3rd voyage for "mismanagement"
Click to expand...
Considering what the Spanish did to Middle and South American Natives, there is no foot to stand on. It’s a goddamn “What If” Story. People are just mad about nothing.

As an American myself, I will proudly say these defenses of Queen Isabella and the Spanish’s role in colonization is highly ignorant and a attempt to rewrite history.

Sure, the Spanish didn’t bring their brutality that far into “North America”, but their depiction was accurate none-the-less.
 
Valiant_Abyss said:
Forgive me for my lack of knowledge on Spanish history, but if Isabella was so against poor treatment and enslavement of the natives, why was Columbus promoted and rewarded heavily upon returning to Spain? From my minute google search efforts it seems like he was only arrested in 1500 during his 3rd voyage for "mismanagement"
Click to expand...
It's only a guess but one could say Isabella was pretty busy dealing with the creation of Spain. No, really, she and Ferdinand of Aragon literally created Spain itself. Originally, they were from different kingdoms (Isabella from Castile and Ferdinand from Aragon) but decided to unite all those territories under one rule. They were the first to call themelves King and Queen of Spain, again because they pretty much created it, with Isabella herself playing a gigantic part, essentially single-handedly lowering crime rates and erasing the bankrupt debt her half-brother Henry IV left behind. The Spanish Golden Age and Spanish Empire happened because of her and Ferdinand, she straight-up reorganized the whole governmental system. So while certainly NO excuse, she was basically busy dealing with the creation of an entire kingdom, country, government and empire from almost scratch. The goal with Colombus was just so her kingdom could extend its influence, once it was done thanks to Colombus's discoveries, she essentially focused on more pressing matters, aka the establishment and full construction of a functionning kingdom and empire.

Regardless, she was personally very annoyed with Colombus's enslavement of the natives. Her anti-slavery policies were made because she believed every single person living in places under her rule was a subject of the Crown of Castile and that included removed territories (like the Canaris Islands) and as such couldn't be enslaved. She went as far as establishing circumstances under which someone could be enslaved like cannibalism or sodomy. When she heard Colombus had taken more than 1,000 prisoners (I believe European rebels tired of his cruelty and incompetence), she ordered the prisoners to be released and his immediate arrest. She and Ferdinand did release him later but he never recovered the influence and sympathy he once had and they even refused to grant him money later (to the point his sons tried to sue the Crown but well...). As for the testimony I mentionned, she made it because she feared her policies would not be respected after her death and didn't want that to happen (it did happen of course but still).

My point is, she's not blameless, like at all (the Spanish Inquisition? it was her) but the fact remains she made it clear slavery of the natives was NOT approved under her rule and she was firmly against it. And considering the era, that's more than notable enough. Which is why I can understand why people might get pissed at how a historical person known for fighting against slavery is turned into an uber-evil slaver.
 
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NeoKingOfLight said:
Considering what the Spanish did to Middle and South American Natives, there is no foot to stand on. It’s a goddamn “What If” Story. People are just mad about nothing.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call nothing having one historical figure known and confirmed by all historians in the world notable for being against one of the most disgusting practices of our species, especially centuries ago, turned into a slaver nothing.
NeoKingOfLight said:
As an American myself, I will proudly say these defenses of Queen Isabella and the Spanish’s role in colonization is highly ignorant and a attempt to rewrite history.
Click to expand...
NeoKingOfLight said:
their depiction was accurate none-the-less.
Click to expand...
Once again, no. You can't call it accurate at all. Queen Isabella was firmly opposed to slavery in real life so representing her as a greedy slaver (and a stupid one at that, which again is far from reality) is not accurate at all. It's like taking Leonidas of Sparta and making him a cannibalistic sociopath who eats babies for fun. Considering the era he lived in and Spartans mentality, he's more than certainly guilty of horrific stuff but that's not accurate at all. Or saying Aelfred the Great was a psychopathic murderer who fought the vikings solely because he was evil and a tyrant while he was pretty much the opposite and technically the oppressed in that situation.

As for the defenses, people are not defending the colonization, they're annoyed that a person from their history, one they are proud of, who is accepted and recognized as anti-slavery is depicted as a greedy slaver, so the exact opposite of what she was in real life. Sorry not sorry, these are facts. Not opinions, not theories, facts, historical facts that are firmly established by studies, archeology, life and reality. Willingly ignoring them is what attempts to rewrite history. And those angry at this are also angry at being depicted as monsters who attack people they never met in real life. This is literally blaming them for something they never did. It does not absolve their country of what it did but that's incredibly toxic to outright make up new crimes and tarnish their history like that. Why wasn't it England? Or France? They could have served the purpose well enough. Why take a country that had nothing to do with that specific event and make them responsible for that?

Take my country, France. France is guilty of tons of bad shit, even today, and only the most absolute of dumbasses would say the opposite. But if tomorrow we're depicted as responsible for the Massacre of Praga, then I would get angry, yell "**** you!" and slam your head onto a metal table because you're basically saying my country is guilty for something it never committed.

Yes, there is the whole "what if story" argument. But that's not enough to justify outright rewriting history and transform people who were relatively decent, at least for the era, into monsters on the level of Hitler. History is much more complex than that, at least in most cases, and there are enough people who have done horrible things and people today incapable of subtlety and nuances who believe stupid lies (like saying Caesar wanted to be king and was evil and Brutus was selfless and a hero of freedom) to not add more confusion, twist history further than already done even today and tarnish a country's history for what they never did.

And once again, this goes through a general debate about how Hispanoamericans are treated and depicted and how they feel about the discriminations they potentially face. And I don't see why we shouldn't listen to them. Unless one considers all discriminations are not equally bad, which I proudly find disgusting.
 
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darkphantom9805 said:
Dang mcu discussion has changed it something else
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Tbf considering the undertones and direction of S2 of "What if...?" I'm not surprised. Truthfully this is tame stuff compared to the responses I've seen on YouTube, Discord, Facebook, etc even for current MCU standards, S2 of "What if...?" is extremely divisive even among casual audiences.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Tbf considering the undertones and direction of S2 of "What if...?" I'm not surprised. Truthfully this is tame stuff compared to the responses I've seen on YouTube, Discord, Facebook, etc even for current MCU standards, S2 of "What if...?" is extremely divisive even among casual audiences.
Click to expand...
I’ve literally never seen any of this the only complaints I’ve seen people had is how some episodes aren’t that interesting like nebula etc and that they are doing way to much for Peggy
 
For the people who keep creating new MCU CRTs

vsbattles.fandom.com

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
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Up to three active content revision threads can be open for any verse. If three active content revision threads are in progress, the community must conclude one before creating a new one.
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Finish your CRTs before spamming new ones
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
For the people who keep creating new MCU CRTs

vsbattles.fandom.com

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com


Finish your CRTs before spamming new ones
Click to expand...
They aren’t possible to finish because they need mod approval which are very rare on this site like several of crt have been stuck in limbo cause of this due to how few mods there are
 
darkphantom9805 said:
They aren’t possible to finish because they need mod approval which are very rare on this site like several of crt have been stuck in limbo cause of this due to how few mods there are
Click to expand...

Maybe because of how you format your CRTs? What you link in them? Heck, the only thing in your current CRT are two scans of the Mark 2 HB. And one of Yokoahh5743's linked videos in their CRT got taken down.

And as other people said multiple times, CRTs take time. Some for days, and some for months possibly even years to finish.
 
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