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Hello, it’s me again with a revision that it’s too long for it’s own good. Today I want to discuss the Season 2 of Loki, since everything in it have basically confirmed that an additional time dimension exists in the MCU, just like it was previously theorized. To explain why I will use the Tiering System FAQ directly, using the new, rewritten part of the Temporal Dimensions part, to be exact. I will only take the parts that actually apply here, so if anyone wants to read the whole thing you can find it here.
Let’s not wait any long and just get to it, shall we?
The second Temporal Dimension
Let’s establish the basis: what I am proposing is that the TVA and the Void at the End of Time (as in the one that contains the Citadel at the End of Time and all the Timelines, just to be clear) have an additional time axis compared to the Timelines that they contains. To prove this, let’s first take a look at the FAQ part that talks about timelines:
“Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole being changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created / destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.”
This is of extreme importance here, considering that this apply to both the Void at the End of Time and the TVA. With the first, we directly see first hand the Timelines contained within it branching out, being changed and created in real time. Meanwhile, in the TVA, the Timelines are seen branching and expanding at an infinite rate, to the point of overloading the Temporal Loom.
In both cases we have clear indications of new Timelines being formed and changing both in the Void at the End of Time and the TVA, which alone would prove that they have a temporal dimension external from the one of the Timelines themselves, as explained in the FAQ. However, let’s continue to be 100% sure.
“However, caution is necessary. As explained above, we require that the additional time dimension is "a line comprised of uncountably infinite points". If new versions of timelines are only created if they are changed, due to time travel for example, then the number of "snapshots" of the timeline would be far more limited. The amount of snapshots would be one more than the times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite and the timeline after the second rewrite. That are far less than the required uncountably infinite many.”
This is also of no concern. The Timelines, as explained by the Watcher, are created on their own and are not made because someone tampered with them throught external means. Time Travel can create new Timelines, but it’s obviously far from the only way to create them, and in particular when the Multiverse was “freed” to branch out after the death of He Who Remains, the Timeline that were created were made on their own.
Meanwhile, both the Void at the End of Time and the TVA don’t even works in a structure composed of multiple Timelines, and in fact their time axis works in a conceptually different way since in them Time Travel can affect the future directly, while in the normal Timelines changing the past only gives birth to a new Timelines, further proving how different this two temporal dimensions are.
“Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinite points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement like the alteration of the timelines being subject to its own flow of time or by saying that special time travel can go to prior versions of the timelines instead of the past. The keyword in the latter case is time travel, as that specifies that the action happens through movement through something like time. Note that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.”
Both the Void at the End of Time and the TVA qualify for this too. When Timelines are destroyed, pruned, branched and such, neither of the two’s time axis are affected in any way, shape or form, and this is directly seen when the Timelines branches infinitely after the death of HWR. We also clearly sees the flow of time of the Timelines themselves, which is separated from the one of the Void and the TVA since it's contained within them.
The part about Time Travel also gives us further evidence, since in the final episode of Season 2 Loki managed to go back in time in the Void at the End of Time, going to a version where the Timelines still didn’t branch out.This means that he went to a previous version of the time axis of the Void at the End of Time in which the changes to the time dimension of the Timelines still didn’t happen (aka they still weren’t branched),and the fact that it is time travel and is called as such numerous times also gives us evidence that this is done by moving throught something that works exactly like time.
And for the last part, I already given evidence that the Timelines are not only created when the timeline is altered, so I wont delve into that again.
After all of this, it is pretty clear cut that the Void at the End of Time is indeed 6-D for having an additional time dimension, with nothing that suggests the opposite. However, if we want to be completely honest, the TVA do have some statements that might contradict the presence of a second time axis. For this reason, I will now try to debunk said things.
First of all, the TVA do have time, and this is proven several times throught the series. First of all, as our standards explains, the simple fact that Timelines are contained in the space of the TVA, and said Timelines are shown to change, branch out, be destroyed and such proves by itself the existence of a time axis that works in the TVA, since the past with less Timelines and the future with more of them can’t be the past and future of the Timelines themselves, obviously.
Most importantly, when Loki goes back in time in the TVA, we are shown the year in which he goes back according to the time axis of the TVA, and OB himself says that Mobius visited him four hundred years ago, proving that time do pass normally and there is even a way to measure the time in the TVA. There is also the fact that Loki was able to Time Slip to the far past of the TVA, when He Who Remains was still directly comanding everything. Then he also travel back in time to OB in the past, which affects the OB of the present, and this was shown even before the Time Slip since Loki was the one to create the “OB” nickname that he uses the first time they meet (I suck at making clips, but it's in the first episode of the second Season at the 23 minutes mark). And all of this was even before he learned how to use his Time Slip, at which point he became effectively able to break the laws of time. And as the cherry on the cake, even the Official Timeline Book shows that in the TVA there is a flow of time since it’s potrayed in a Timeline-like structure (and also I think it’s interesting that it’s separate from the normal events, too).
With all of the above it seems pretty clear cut that there is a time axis in the TVA, but there are a couple of statements that would contradict that, and I will go throught them one by one. First of all, the fact that the TVA exists outside of time and space is absolutely true, we literally sees the Timelines outside the window of the Control Room … but this doesn’t mean at all tha the TVA itself doesn’t have a Time axis, but simply that the time axis it have is outside the regular flow of space and time and work differently. It's a similiar case to Acasaulity, where saying that someone is outside Causality only gives Acausality Type 4 rather than Type 5, because they still works under a causality system that simply works differently. The same applies to the TVA, which in fact work in a time axis extremely different from the one of the Timelines since, as explained before, changes to the past directly affect the future.
Than, we have OB saying that it’s impossible to Time Slip in the TVA (once again, Season 2, Episode 1, 23 minutes mark). However, he never says that this is impossible because a time axis doesn’t exist, and in fact he later corrects himself when he is proven wrong the moment that he realizes that Loki’s changes to the past actually affected the present too, clearly saying that it makes sense and that time travelling the TVA is actually possible.
And lastly, OB statement that Loki’s time travelled to a place with no time (Season 2, Episode 5, 13:50 mark). This is indeed correct … but we need to look at the context of this statement too. This was said immediately after the TVA was completely destroyed by the destruction of the Temporal Loom, which destroyed the time axis of the TVA too (more on that in the second section, more specifically on the part regarding the Temporal Loom), so in that moment the TVA had no time since the time it had was erased alongside everything else. And Loki did time travel to the TVA after it was destroyed at the beginning of episode 5, before anyone asks when he did so. This is also supported by his statement immediately after that he would be travelling to a place that no longer exists. Considering that OB knows that Loki can time travel, he could easily tell him that he needs to travel to before the destruction happened, instead he tells him that the TVA no longer existed, basically saying that, in a normal situation, even time travelling wouldn’t change anything since time in there no longer exists. In fact, rewatching that part, Loki specifically says that he needs to go back in time to before the destruction of the Temporal Loom and he says that he can’t because that place doesn’t exists anymore, further proving that time was destroyed in the explosion too. As we know, Loki does it anyway, but this is because his Time Travel is broken as I will talk about later on.
All this said, I think that everything points towards the TVA having an additional temporal dimension too, making it 6-D like the Void at the End of Time.
Who scale?
If this is accepted, there are mainly 3/4 characters and/or objects that would scale, either completely or only partially. Here is the list and details as to who would scale:
Minor notes
Loki’s name after ascending to godhood is officially “God Loki”, as seen in the merchandise and the Twitter account of the series itself. So the Key should be renamed accordingly.
Also, his image should be changed to this (credit to DarlingAurora for cleaning it up). However, I have no idea if this is cleaned enough or even how to add images to profiles (I sucks at editing) so a help from someone more expirienced would be appreciated.
Conclusions:
So, to summarize the proposal:
Thanks to the (involontary) help from Dinobot1996, Wishfulite, ParkerKent007 and The_one_you_least_expect for some scans (I stole them from their CRTs or comments lol) and to DarlingAurora for the image for the God Loki’s profile. But in general, thanks to all of the MCU supporters for the help.
If there is any doubt, don’t hesitate to let me know in the comments.
Agree: 20 (@Swordsaint456, @Revan_Laha, @WellHelloThere, @DarlingAurora, @LuffyRuffy46307, @NIK_FARIS, @The_Axiom_of_Virgo, @Sir_Ovens, @Kenny Mccormick 0v0, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Yokoahh5743, @Vzearr, @Lightning_XXI, @Qawsedf234, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Excel616, @Eseseso, @Lonkitt, @The_one_you_least_expect, @Elizhaa)
Disagree:
Neutral:
Let’s not wait any long and just get to it, shall we?
The second Temporal Dimension
Let’s establish the basis: what I am proposing is that the TVA and the Void at the End of Time (as in the one that contains the Citadel at the End of Time and all the Timelines, just to be clear) have an additional time axis compared to the Timelines that they contains. To prove this, let’s first take a look at the FAQ part that talks about timelines:
“Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole being changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created / destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.”
This is of extreme importance here, considering that this apply to both the Void at the End of Time and the TVA. With the first, we directly see first hand the Timelines contained within it branching out, being changed and created in real time. Meanwhile, in the TVA, the Timelines are seen branching and expanding at an infinite rate, to the point of overloading the Temporal Loom.
In both cases we have clear indications of new Timelines being formed and changing both in the Void at the End of Time and the TVA, which alone would prove that they have a temporal dimension external from the one of the Timelines themselves, as explained in the FAQ. However, let’s continue to be 100% sure.
“However, caution is necessary. As explained above, we require that the additional time dimension is "a line comprised of uncountably infinite points". If new versions of timelines are only created if they are changed, due to time travel for example, then the number of "snapshots" of the timeline would be far more limited. The amount of snapshots would be one more than the times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite and the timeline after the second rewrite. That are far less than the required uncountably infinite many.”
This is also of no concern. The Timelines, as explained by the Watcher, are created on their own and are not made because someone tampered with them throught external means. Time Travel can create new Timelines, but it’s obviously far from the only way to create them, and in particular when the Multiverse was “freed” to branch out after the death of He Who Remains, the Timeline that were created were made on their own.
Meanwhile, both the Void at the End of Time and the TVA don’t even works in a structure composed of multiple Timelines, and in fact their time axis works in a conceptually different way since in them Time Travel can affect the future directly, while in the normal Timelines changing the past only gives birth to a new Timelines, further proving how different this two temporal dimensions are.
“Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinite points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement like the alteration of the timelines being subject to its own flow of time or by saying that special time travel can go to prior versions of the timelines instead of the past. The keyword in the latter case is time travel, as that specifies that the action happens through movement through something like time. Note that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.”
Both the Void at the End of Time and the TVA qualify for this too. When Timelines are destroyed, pruned, branched and such, neither of the two’s time axis are affected in any way, shape or form, and this is directly seen when the Timelines branches infinitely after the death of HWR. We also clearly sees the flow of time of the Timelines themselves, which is separated from the one of the Void and the TVA since it's contained within them.
The part about Time Travel also gives us further evidence, since in the final episode of Season 2 Loki managed to go back in time in the Void at the End of Time, going to a version where the Timelines still didn’t branch out.This means that he went to a previous version of the time axis of the Void at the End of Time in which the changes to the time dimension of the Timelines still didn’t happen (aka they still weren’t branched),and the fact that it is time travel and is called as such numerous times also gives us evidence that this is done by moving throught something that works exactly like time.
And for the last part, I already given evidence that the Timelines are not only created when the timeline is altered, so I wont delve into that again.
After all of this, it is pretty clear cut that the Void at the End of Time is indeed 6-D for having an additional time dimension, with nothing that suggests the opposite. However, if we want to be completely honest, the TVA do have some statements that might contradict the presence of a second time axis. For this reason, I will now try to debunk said things.
First of all, the TVA do have time, and this is proven several times throught the series. First of all, as our standards explains, the simple fact that Timelines are contained in the space of the TVA, and said Timelines are shown to change, branch out, be destroyed and such proves by itself the existence of a time axis that works in the TVA, since the past with less Timelines and the future with more of them can’t be the past and future of the Timelines themselves, obviously.
Most importantly, when Loki goes back in time in the TVA, we are shown the year in which he goes back according to the time axis of the TVA, and OB himself says that Mobius visited him four hundred years ago, proving that time do pass normally and there is even a way to measure the time in the TVA. There is also the fact that Loki was able to Time Slip to the far past of the TVA, when He Who Remains was still directly comanding everything. Then he also travel back in time to OB in the past, which affects the OB of the present, and this was shown even before the Time Slip since Loki was the one to create the “OB” nickname that he uses the first time they meet (I suck at making clips, but it's in the first episode of the second Season at the 23 minutes mark). And all of this was even before he learned how to use his Time Slip, at which point he became effectively able to break the laws of time. And as the cherry on the cake, even the Official Timeline Book shows that in the TVA there is a flow of time since it’s potrayed in a Timeline-like structure (and also I think it’s interesting that it’s separate from the normal events, too).
With all of the above it seems pretty clear cut that there is a time axis in the TVA, but there are a couple of statements that would contradict that, and I will go throught them one by one. First of all, the fact that the TVA exists outside of time and space is absolutely true, we literally sees the Timelines outside the window of the Control Room … but this doesn’t mean at all tha the TVA itself doesn’t have a Time axis, but simply that the time axis it have is outside the regular flow of space and time and work differently. It's a similiar case to Acasaulity, where saying that someone is outside Causality only gives Acausality Type 4 rather than Type 5, because they still works under a causality system that simply works differently. The same applies to the TVA, which in fact work in a time axis extremely different from the one of the Timelines since, as explained before, changes to the past directly affect the future.
Than, we have OB saying that it’s impossible to Time Slip in the TVA (once again, Season 2, Episode 1, 23 minutes mark). However, he never says that this is impossible because a time axis doesn’t exist, and in fact he later corrects himself when he is proven wrong the moment that he realizes that Loki’s changes to the past actually affected the present too, clearly saying that it makes sense and that time travelling the TVA is actually possible.
And lastly, OB statement that Loki’s time travelled to a place with no time (Season 2, Episode 5, 13:50 mark). This is indeed correct … but we need to look at the context of this statement too. This was said immediately after the TVA was completely destroyed by the destruction of the Temporal Loom, which destroyed the time axis of the TVA too (more on that in the second section, more specifically on the part regarding the Temporal Loom), so in that moment the TVA had no time since the time it had was erased alongside everything else. And Loki did time travel to the TVA after it was destroyed at the beginning of episode 5, before anyone asks when he did so. This is also supported by his statement immediately after that he would be travelling to a place that no longer exists. Considering that OB knows that Loki can time travel, he could easily tell him that he needs to travel to before the destruction happened, instead he tells him that the TVA no longer existed, basically saying that, in a normal situation, even time travelling wouldn’t change anything since time in there no longer exists. In fact, rewatching that part, Loki specifically says that he needs to go back in time to before the destruction of the Temporal Loom and he says that he can’t because that place doesn’t exists anymore, further proving that time was destroyed in the explosion too. As we know, Loki does it anyway, but this is because his Time Travel is broken as I will talk about later on.
All this said, I think that everything points towards the TVA having an additional temporal dimension too, making it 6-D like the Void at the End of Time.
Who scale?
If this is accepted, there are mainly 3/4 characters and/or objects that would scale, either completely or only partially. Here is the list and details as to who would scale:
- K.E.V.I.N.: this is pretty obvious. He have a R>F relashionship with the MCU Cosmology as a whole, so whatever rating said cosmology gets he will always be +1D. This means that he will be upgrade to 1-C, 7-D to be exact. (Note: if the R>F revision made by Ultima will actually pass, please don’t attempt to upgrade him to 1-A, he doesn’t qualify at all and a CRT for that would only undermine the efforts made up until now to upgrade the rating of the cosmology and the characters)
- Loki’s Time Powers: he was shown several time to be able to easily alter the time dimension of the Void at the End of Time, stopping it’s time with just a movement of his hand and repeatedly traveling throught it’s time axis to go back in time. So, every ability he have with the Time Slipping and in general his Time Powers should scale to 6-D.
- He Who Remains (with Preparation and Technology): He doesn’t have a profile right now, but if he ever had one than he would scale with Preparation and Technology since he was the one to create the Temporal Loom, which scale for reasons I will explain below.
- The Temporal Loom: This might be a bit more controversial than the previous ones, but basically it was shown repeatedly that the TVA was destroyed too by the explosion of the Loom. This explosion, however, didn’t destroy only the TVA (as in the space), but also it’s time dimension. This is proven two times, when Loki Time Slips the first time and then everything is erased and, most importantly, when he goes back to the time of the first episode and, after a small discussion with Mobius, everything is erased completely. This proves that not only the present, but also the past and time itself was affected by this destruction. This is also supported, as said before, by OB saying that Loki can’t go back to before the destruction of the Temporal Loom because it doesn’t exists anymore. Obviously thought, there might be a bit of perplexity as to how Loki was able to rewrite time in the TVA if it’s time dimension was erased or even how he was even able to time travel in it in the first place … and this is pointed out by the series itself as something that should be impossible, but he was able to do it anyway. This means that this is more of a feat to prove how broken his time travel is rather than an anti-feat for the Temporal Loom itself.
Minor notes
Also, his image should be changed to this (credit to DarlingAurora for cleaning it up). However, I have no idea if this is cleaned enough or even how to add images to profiles (I sucks at editing) so a help from someone more expirienced would be appreciated.
Conclusions:
So, to summarize the proposal:
- The Void at the End of Time and the TVA are Low 1-C [6-D]
- K.E.V.I.N. becomes 1-C [7-D]
- Loki’s Time Slip/Time Powers abilities becomes Low 1-C [6-D] and his Time Travel is upgraded accordingly
- He Who Remains (when his profile will be made) have Low 1-C [6-D] throught Preparation and Technology
- The Temporal Loom becomes Low 1-C [6-D]
Thanks to the (involontary) help from Dinobot1996, Wishfulite, ParkerKent007 and The_one_you_least_expect for some scans (I stole them from their CRTs or comments lol) and to DarlingAurora for the image for the God Loki’s profile. But in general, thanks to all of the MCU supporters for the help.
If there is any doubt, don’t hesitate to let me know in the comments.
Agree: 20 (@Swordsaint456, @Revan_Laha, @WellHelloThere, @DarlingAurora, @LuffyRuffy46307, @NIK_FARIS, @The_Axiom_of_Virgo, @Sir_Ovens, @Kenny Mccormick 0v0, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Yokoahh5743, @Vzearr, @Lightning_XXI, @Qawsedf234, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Excel616, @Eseseso, @Lonkitt, @The_one_you_least_expect, @Elizhaa)
Disagree:
Neutral:
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