MCU 5-A Characters Revision

[Damage3245]

It has been decided in this thread that the 5-A calculation for the Power Stone and its associated Sub-Relativistic calculation will be removed and replaced with the default High 6-A calculation for destroying the surface of an Earth-like planet.

The purpose of this thread is to add in the replacement value, and find what value the affected characters should be scaling to.

The characters and weapons directly affected by this change currently are:

• The Orb
• Chitauri Scepter
• Tesseract
• Infinity Gauntlet
• Thanos
• Ebony Maw
• Cull Obsidian
• Ronan the Accuser
• Infinity Ultron
• Doctor Strange
• Sinister Strange
• Kaecilius
• Wong
• Ned Leeds
• Ancient One
• Karl Mordo
• Shuri
• Black Panther
• Namor
• Captain America
• Thor
• Stormbreaker
• Mighty Thor
• Mjolnir
• Zeus
• Thunderbolt
• Gorr the God-Butcher
• All-Black the Necrosword
• Hela
• Odin
• Surtur
• Valkyrie
• Iron Man
• War Machine
• Rescue
• Abilisk
• Drax the Destroyer
• Captain Marvel
• Ant-Man
• Kang the Conqueror
• Scarlet Witch
• Agatha Harkness
• The Avengers

Possibly some others I've missed, since it's an extensive list.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The 5-A upgrade was based on Rocket's statement as it is in this thread. If the 5-A is removed then they all would still scale to 5-C Hadron enforcer, so they wouldn't be changed to H6-A.

 

[Damage3245]

The 5-A upgrade was based on Rocket's statement as it is in this thread. If the 5-A is removed then they all would still scale to 5-C Hadron enforcer, so they wouldn't be changed to H6-A.

I said the calc would be replaced with the High 6-A one, not that their ratings would be.

 

[Sparkive]

I agree with the threat

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I said the calc would be replaced with the High 6-A one, not that their ratings would be.

The thread seems to suggest that. But anyways you seemed not to know what value they should scale to, so they should scale to 5-C.

 

[Lacku]

There's also some evidence that supports Post-Awakening tiers scaling above the Tesseract, such as Ronan viewing Captain Marvel as a greater weapon than it and Awakened Thor being stronger than his father which would change their ratings to at least 5-C, likely 5-B

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

By the way Mind stone is not there, neither is Space Stone, Avengers

 

[RoTt35]

Awakened Thor being stronger than his father

To be fair Post-Awakening Thor cannot be stronger than Odin, he was far weaker than Hela and Surtur, both of whom were defeated by Odin during their prime. It would work if we separate Post-Awakening Thor into two keys though

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Question: wouldn’t the value Thanos takes be halved considering the Gauntlet is what allows him to withstand the burst? It was also damaged, meaning the energy was split between the two, no?

 

[Damage3245]

Question: wouldn’t the value Thanos takes be halved considering the Gauntlet is what allows him to withstand the burst? It was also damaged, meaning the energy was split between the two, no?

Personally, I don't really support the line of scaling from the Power Stone to Thanos in the first place (never saw the original CRT before it was implemented).

When Rocket gives his explanation on Earth becoming "ground zero for a power surge of ridiculously cosmic proportions", we get a direct visual of the power surge he's referencing and we see a bloom of energy spreading outward both across the surface of the Earth and up into space.... But I don't understand why it is being taken that Thanos scales directly to this; there is physical backlash against Thanos when he uses the power of all six gems and snaps his fingers but why would this amount of energy that is harming Thanos be equal to the full power surge that we see spreading out everywhere which Rocket mentions?

The "power surge of cosmic proportions" appears to be this massive, easily detectable wave of energy that doesn't actually affect the surroundings of the user. When Thanos snapped his fingers the first time, Thor was completely unaffected by what Thanos did. When Bruce snapped his fingers, the lab he was standing in and the people around him were completely unaffected. Likewise for Tony snapping his fingers.

That seems contradictory; it's a massive Moon-destroying levels of energy spreading outwards but it only negatively affects the user of the Gauntlet and not anything else in its vicinity? Personally; it seems to me that they're two different things; the backlash against the user of the gauntlet and the power surge that Rocket talks about which is cosmically massive but doesn't affect anything materially.

 

[Yokoahh5743]

Does this mean everyone will go back to H6-A?

 

[Hixkaryana]

Does this mean everyone will go back to H6-A?

I said the calc would be replaced with the High 6-A one, not that their ratings would be.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Does this mean everyone will go back to H6-A?

I think they become 5-C from moon destruction. How long that will be in place will be seen given Damage’s concerns.

 

[ThanatosX]

Personally, I don't really support the line of scaling from the Power Stone to Thanos in the first place (never saw the original CRT before it was implemented).

When Rocket gives his explanation on Earth becoming "ground zero for a power surge of ridiculously cosmic proportions", we get a direct visual of the power surge he's referencing and we see a bloom of energy spreading outward both across the surface of the Earth and up into space.... But I don't understand why it is being taken that Thanos scales directly to this; there is physical backlash against Thanos when he uses the power of all six gems and snaps his fingers but why would this amount of energy that is harming Thanos be equal to the full power surge that we see spreading out everywhere which Rocket mentions?

The "power surge of cosmic proportions" appears to be this massive, easily detectable wave of energy that doesn't actually affect the surroundings of the user. When Thanos snapped his fingers the first time, Thor was completely unaffected by what Thanos did. When Bruce snapped his fingers, the lab he was standing in and the people around him were completely unaffected. Likewise for Tony snapping his fingers.

That seems contradictory; it's a massive Moon-destroying levels of energy spreading outwards but it only negatively affects the user of the Gauntlet and not anything else in its vicinity? Personally; it seems to me that they're two different things; the backlash against the user of the gauntlet and the power surge that Rocket talks about which is cosmically massive but doesn't affect anything materially.

I don't have much time to debate tonight, but I just want to point out that Destruction Capacity and Attack Potency are not the same thing. An attack with a 5-B AP could just destroy a building and still be 5-B in AP simply because the range and the DC weren't enough. This is also note in the Attack Potency page:
"The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack."
It is the same reason as to why characters whose best attack just destroy a building or an island can still scale higher, maybe by damaging character that scales higher in durability. The important is the AP, not the DC.
The important here is the Energy Output that Thanos tanked, not the area of effect of the Snap. Given that the energy of the Gauntlet is seen flowing through his body and physically damaging him and other that perform the snap, there is no reason to assume that to say that it didn't tank the Energetic Output of his own Snap.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Does this statment from rocket only reffer to weapons? Can't it also be sometings like stars,black holes or supernovas as he has traveld the galaxie multiple times

 

[Reyne]

Personally, I don't really support the line of scaling from the Power Stone to Thanos in the first place (never saw the original CRT before it was implemented).

When Rocket gives his explanation on Earth becoming "ground zero for a power surge of ridiculously cosmic proportions", we get a direct visual of the power surge he's referencing and we see a bloom of energy spreading outward both across the surface of the Earth and up into space.... But I don't understand why it is being taken that Thanos scales directly to this; there is physical backlash against Thanos when he uses the power of all six gems and snaps his fingers but why would this amount of energy that is harming Thanos be equal to the full power surge that we see spreading out everywhere which Rocket mentions?

The "power surge of cosmic proportions" appears to be this massive, easily detectable wave of energy that doesn't actually affect the surroundings of the user. When Thanos snapped his fingers the first time, Thor was completely unaffected by what Thanos did. When Bruce snapped his fingers, the lab he was standing in and the people around him were completely unaffected. Likewise for Tony snapping his fingers.

That seems contradictory; it's a massive Moon-destroying levels of energy spreading outwards but it only negatively affects the user of the Gauntlet and not anything else in its vicinity? Personally; it seems to me that they're two different things; the backlash against the user of the gauntlet and the power surge that Rocket talks about which is cosmically massive but doesn't affect anything materially.

It could be that the energy goes into the very fabric of the universe, which is why there isn't also a large crater for when the stones were destroyed (the Russos or the writers having confirmed the stones' power is back in the universe).

It doesn't make much sense, but we also haven't taken supernova or white holes into account when considering Rocket's statement.

 

[RoTt35]

The important here is the Energy Output that Thanos tanked, not the area of effect of the Snap. Given that the energy of the Gauntlet is seen flowing through his body and physically damaging him and other that perform the snap, there is no reason to assume that to say that it didn't tank the Energetic Output of his own Snap.

The timeline book also states that Thanos was being supercharged by the energy/power of the Infinity Gauntlet

 

[ThanatosX]

In any case, before going to bed I will quickly say that, while I think it will look very unappealing in the profiles, "At least 5-C, possibly 5-B" will probably be the best solution here.
It would be consistent not only with Thanos surviving the Energetic Output of the Snap (which as I said previous is separated by its Destructive Capacity), but it would also be consistent with other informations we have, like: Thanos surviving an attack of Stormbreaker straight to the chest (a weapon that was previously rated as 5-C before the upgrade, which if Thanos was High 6-B, 6-A or low into High 6-A would be impossible for him to survive without major wounds like he did since he would literally be annihilated by the sheer AP difference); Full Power Surtur (previously rated as "At least High 6-A, possibly 5-B) not being able to destroy the outer shell of the Tesseract with a direct hit, while Thanos managed to do that casually with one hand; Odin saying that Thor is stronger than him, and his Full Power was rated as High 6-A, possibly 5-B before the upgrade. There might be more, but you get the point.
I will say that "At least 5-C, possibly 5-B" isn't the best rating visual wise, so if people prefer to choose one or the other value (most likely the 5-C one) I am completely fine with it too.

 

[RoTt35]

In any case, before going to bed I will quickly say that, while I think it will look very unappealing in the profiles, "At least 5-C, possibly 5-B" will probably be the best solution here.

Surtur and Odin were Likely 5-B, so they would be "At least 5-C, likely 5-B". But yeah, I agree with that, although we should divide Post-Awakening Thor into two keys since Ragnarok Thor scaling from Surtur who one-shot Hela wouldn't make any sense

 

[Hixkaryana]

Wouldn't "At most 5-B" make it cleaner?

 

[Dinobot1996]

I assumed Surtur is meant to get stronger the larger he grows, as the Thor Ragnarok script points out multiple times that he steadily grows larger over the course of his rampage on Asgard, and is described as having reached "extinction level scale" by the time he one-shots Hela:

 

[Hixkaryana]

Snip

So what are you implying? A "possibly higher with Size Manipulation" key added?

 

[Dinobot1996]

So what are you implying? A "possibly higher with Size Manipulation" key added?

Something like that might work.

Interestingly, the recent Marvel Studios 100 Objects: Iconic Artifacts from the MCU book implies that Odin and Hela worked together to defeat Surtur together in the past, which might potentially help solve scaling issues:

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

This makes sense

 

[ByArrow]

Bump

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with replacing 5-A with 5-C

 

[Baabasaplar95]

Agree with replacing 5-A with 5-C

same

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Agree with replacing 5-A with 5-C

I also agree with this