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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades, part 2

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The Smashor said:
Stronger characters can be defeated by weaker characters. Also Sticker Star Bowser is Legend, regular Paper Bowser is the same level as Paper Mario, ace.
Click to expand...
Paper Mario beat Sticker Star Bowser twice. Don't use spirit levels to scale spirits, it's like using levels to scale Pokémon. It doesn't work. Not to mention Master Hand is only an ace, despite him creating all the other characters.
 
A: It says he defeated Bowser, not sticker star Paper Bowser specifically.

B: I've stopped implying that. You are using Straw Man Fallacy. It also should be noted Master Core, Master Hand's "Full Power", is a Legend class, meaning even if I were implying that you would still be in the wrong.
 
ARE YOU ACTUALLY KIDDING ME. IT SAYS MARIO DEFEATED BOWSER TWICE. ON STICKER STAR BOWSER'S TROPHY. IT'S CLEARLY REFERING TO STICKER STAR BOWSER. STOP WITH THE SEMANTICS.

Stopped implying what? That Master Hand created all the characters? Or that Arceus is stronger than Master Hand. Master Hand most certainly created Arceus, so I'm assuming it's the later. You cannot say spirit levels are canon, then say Arceus is weaker than Master Hand. One of those statements must be false. Which one is it?
 
Ah. Well, once again, both ace and legend spirits are Low 2-C so it's still possible for an ace to defeat a legend.

I stopped implying that MH created the characters since it's been stated they were taken from other universes.
 
Woah let's calm it down here. I just saw this from recent wiki activity, but I do not believe there's any reason to be getting into all caps here.
 
The Smashor said:
Ah. Well, once again, both ace and legend spirits are Low 2-C so it's still possible for an ace to defeat a legend.
I stopped implying that MH created the characters since it's been stated they were taken from other universes.
Click to expand...
>Aces are low 2-C

>Waluigi is an ace

>Low 2-C Smash Waluigi

>Waluigi is an assist trophy

>You can defeat assist trophies

>Low 2-C fighters

What? When was it said that MH took them from other universes? There's direct proof of the opposite. And what universes did he take them from?
 
The Smash Ultimate Direct that revealed Spirits. Also I never said Master Hand took them from other universes. You're using Straw Man Fallacy again.
 
This discussion has been going on for months and it's about time we end it. Can we please come to some sort of consensus specifically regarding the OP's statements?
 
So what are the conclusions here?

It would probably help if you use the Super Smash Bros. verse page to find people to ask to comment here via their message walls.
 
ArbitraryNumbers said:
This discussion has been going on for months and it's about time we end it. Can we please come to some sort of consensus specifically regarding the OP's statements?
Click to expand...
We're discussing it.
 
The Smashor said:
The Smash Ultimate Direct that revealed Spirits. Also I never said Master Hand took them from other universes. You're using Straw Man Fallacy again.
Click to expand...
Link please. And you literally said they were from other universes. "since it's been stated they were taken from other universes." Your words.
 
Antvasima said:
It would probably help if you use the Super Smash Bros. verse page to find people to ask to comment here via their message walls.
Click to expand...
Have you done this?
 
It dosn't matter. All that matters is that Dialga and Master Hand are at least equals, meaning Master Hand is still Low 2-C.
 
The Smashor said:
Well, still. Master Hand and Smash!Dialga are at least equals thanks to Spirits. Master Core is considered equal to the likes of Galeen, Tabuu and Dharkon.
Click to expand...
The spirits star rank has nothing to do with how power the spirit is. Just look at some of the spirits and their rankings and you will see. Master hand is definitely superior to Dialga due to previous posts explaining the issue.
 
So what are the conclusions here? If you need more input, follow my earlier instructions.
 
I'm just going to say by cutscene logic, characters are just as powerful as they are in canon, but in fights, if everyone were really as powerful as they could be, players would constantly choose characters like shulk and Kirby and it would break the game. Characters need to be near balanced from a gameplay perspective to make the game fun. It's why we see villager freaking out before he gets hit by a light beam in the first world of light cutscene because he can't do anything about it in canon.
 
I don't care about this unimportant discussion this guys had, I told everyone to let me apply the accepted changes before, knowing something like this could happen, and now I barely even care of that too.

I'm extremely frustrated.
 
@Eficiente

Can you summarise the changes that you wish to make and why you wish to make them?
 
Eficiente said:
Master Hand

"Created the Smash Bros. universe"

Mostly agreed to be removed.

"and pulled its fighters from other universes"

Same.

"When he is killed, the universe ceases to exist"

Same.

Tabuu

"Created"

It was always false.

"and embodies the Subspace realm"

Irrelevant.
Click to expand...
There is no evidence of any of this headcanons, which is why must be removed.
 
Okay. I will unlock the pages for you. Tell me here when you are done.
 
No problem. Should we close this thread?
 
I guess so, what's in the profiles now is also iffy but at least people can see, evaluate and decide to modify that by themselves. I'm satisfied with that.
 
I suppose that an intelligence section is appropriate, even if it is rated as "Unknown".
 
Master Hand should have high intelligence for being able to keep up with fighters who have lots of experience.
 
What statements?
 
Antvasima said:
What statements?
Click to expand...
It said something along the lines of: "When Dialga heart gave its first beat - time started moving".

This being the Low 2-C feat that everyone scales to and whether or not it is viable for the series.
 
I remember making the argument that they aren't statements that contribute to the lore of Smash Bros. but are just information that explains the origins of the Pokemon Trio from Pokemon, as the Pokemon Trio have the same statements in their series IIRC.


Not to mention how the strongest attack in the series which without difficulty destroyed every other person in the verse is only a 3-A attack.
 
Warren Valion said:
I remember making the argument that they aren't statements that contribute to the lore of Smash Bros. but are just information that explains the origins of the Pokemon Trio from Pokemon, as the Pokemon Trio have the same statements in their series IIRC.


Not to mention how the strongest attack in the series which without difficulty destroyed every other person in the verse is only a 3-A attack.
Click to expand...
No they don't. The statements in the Pokémon games are completely different.

lol wut? Do you... ugh. Does that mean that Goku isn't planet level, since none of his attacks have destroyed the planet? Of course not. Come on.
 
Sptflcrw said:
No they don't. The statements in the Pokémon games are completely different.

lol wut? Do you... ugh. Does that mean that Goku isn't planet level, since none of his attacks have destroyed the planet? Of course not. Come on.
Click to expand...
This is Dialga's, from Pokemon, AP justification:

  • Attack Potency: Multiverse level (Its birth made time begin to flow. Is a good amount stronger than Darkrai, even with Palkia fighting it and drawing its attention. Aided in the creation of the multiverse, which contains an untold number of universes. For instance, certain universe's versions of the Kalos region contain a Reflection Cave. The mirrors in this cave each lead to other universes, each with their own versions of Reflection Cave with more mirrors leading to more universes, and so on. Equal to Palkia.)
This is Master Hand's AP justification that mentions Dialga:

How are these statements "completely different"?


And what? How is what you said about Goku correlate to what I wrote about Smash?

Every character was instantly killed by Galeem's big Light attack - even Dharkon who is Low 2-C. It is without a doubt the strongest move in the series, and it is just 3-A.


A better comparison is when we used to scale every character in Bayonetta to Irenic's MFTL+ speed feat, which was ridiculously faster than every other speed feat in the series - even done by the God Tiers of the series. Said feat was later deemed an outlier for said reasons.

I don't see why Smash should be special.
 
Warren. Smash is a crossover. Dialga from Smash is different from Dialga from Pokemon. Crossovers don't scale to canon.
 
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