Massive TLOZ Verse Upgrades

[TriforcePower1]

Warren, you're just overcomplicating things. Majora caused problems to all people, but that's not just what the statement is referring to. What you're doing is assuming that the statement is referring to Majora causing problems when it's simply describing his powers. I'll be 100% honest here, it seems like you're searching for reasons to make the statement less important just because you cannot accept Majora being actually able to distort Space-Time, when we already see he's at least capable of warping space as we see from the world in the moon.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

-Just because his powers aren't the focus of the sentence doesn't mean it's apart of it.

-Your ignoring everything I have stated so far.Majora preforms these acts of misery with his powers so why would it be different for Time and Space?So he is using his powers to alter Time and Space.

It's not an Association Fallacy and claiming so without proving so is just assumption based.Your argument for it being metaphorical has been debunked as stated several times as it is the presence of Majora causing misery but he is causing the misery with his powers which would apply to the quote which mean his powers affected Time and space which has countless stars.

And really!? assuming I just want to upgrade a character based on their Teir is an awful counter,Of course I want them to be upgraded because I see a legitimate feat and post it for response which now comes to

Support:5 Against:5 Neutral:2

 

[Jjmil3827]

Warren you're kind of overlooking that in the quote power=influence

 

[Warren_Valion]

Warren, you're just overcomplicating things. Majora caused problems to all people, but that's not just what the statement is referring to. What you're doing is assuming that the statement is referring to Majora causing problems when it's simply describing his powers. I'll be 100% honest here, it seems like you're searching for reasons to make the statement less important just because you cannot accept Majora being actually able to distort Space-Time, when we already see he's at least capable of warping space as we see from the world in the moon.

No I am not. I specifically broke down the sentence piece by piece and showcased how your line of thinking is, in fact, incorrect.


And I am offended by your baseless accsuation. I don't accept Majora being able to alter space-time because there is nothing proving that he can.

Show me actual proof.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Warren you're kind of overlooking that in the quote power=influence

It isn't, I have explained this already.

"And no, the quote is being written metaphorically as the emphasis of the sentence is on the "mischief spread by the Skull Kid" and how specifically, "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse".

That is what the Skull Kid's "influence" is, not his power, but the misery he has caused with that power throughout the location of the game - Termina - and to all of its citizens.

What the quote means by, "the moon, the heavens, space and time" is how the misery that the Skull Kid has made has spread everywhere - Majora's influence on the land is omnipresent in a sense because Majora has ruined everyone's lives personally with the posioning of the Swamp, raising the dead of Ikana, making Kafei a child and ruining his chances at marriage, and most importantly - dragging the moon down to kill everyone.


The quote isn't about Majora's power - it's about how Majora has ruined the lives of those in Termina, it represents all the overarching themes that are present in the game, and those themes are what makes the game so great."

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Did you ignore what I posted?.....

Majora's influence is his powers which he used to bring down the moon and affect the Giants Realm(The Heavens) and Space and Time

I just broke down the quote and it directly states that he is affecting it in some way.Your accusations of me just wanting to upgrade character cause I want to is a double standard just saying.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

you continue to provide a flawed argument Majora's influence is his powers as the quote shows.Majora's influnce is him alter Time and Space,The Heavens,The Moon and in point to the 3-A stuff the entire parallel universe.He does so with his powers which in turn create the misery and dread felt by the people in Termina

Just wanna say this again

And how does Majora preform that influence?With his powers which he used to bring down the moon,alter the Giants Realm and effect Time and Space his influence coincides with his powers as Majora's influence without his powers would be nothing as he would be just a mask(albeit a freaky one)and with his powers he creates that sense of doom looming over Termina.

He used his powers to create the doom looming over Termina in the form of the moon.He altered the Giants Realm with his powers as well.He has control over time and space to his whim and can warp it as he pleases as this is all a game to him.Don't you see? Majora's infulence is his powers and it's up to Link/The player to stop Majora

And this

 

[TriforcePower1]

Your "broking down the sentence" is just a long way to say that the statement about Majora affecting the heavens, space and time means that people cannot escape its effects. Which doesn't contradict Majora actually affecting Space-Time.

 

[Warren_Valion]

-Just because his powers aren't the focus of the sentence doesn't mean it's apart of it.
-Your ignoring everything I have stated so far.Majora preforms these acts of misery with his powers so why would it be different for Time and Space?So he is using his powers to alter Time and Space.

It's not an Association Fallacy and claiming so without proving so is just assumption based.Your argument for it being metaphorical has been debunked as stated several times as it is the presence of Majora causing misery but he is causing the misery with his powers which would apply to the quote which mean his powers affected Time and space which has countless stars.

And really!? assuming I just want to upgrade a character based on their Teir is an awful counter,Of course I want them to be upgraded because I see a legitimate feat and post it for response which now comes to

Support:5 Against:5 Neutral:2

It does when you actually break down the sentence, as I have done.


I have broken down every single one of your points - I have ignored nothing. The reason why Majora isn't able to control Space and Time is because nothing proves that he can, you are taking metaphorical flowery speech about how omnipresent Majora's touch is on the people of Termina literally.

Baseless? Are you serious? An association fallacy "is a faulty generalization which asserts that the qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely via an irrelevant association"

You are insisting that Majora's "influence" is talking about his power, when literally nothing proves that in the quote. You are associating that influence=power.


I am not assuming anything nor was this a counter, it is a statement of facts. By taking this quote literally you are making a stretch in logic so the character can be upgraded. That's the purpose of this thread.


Also, you miscounted, only four are supporting:

Agree: 4 (Dark649, GiverOfThePeace, TriforcePower1, Jjmil3827)

Disagree: 4 (Warren Valio, ShadowWarrior1999, Antvasima, CrimsonStarFalle)

Undecided: 1 (Bobsica)

Neutral: 1 (DarkDragonMedeus)

 

[Warren_Valion]

Did you ignore what I posted?.....
Majora's influence is his powers which he used to bring down the moon and affect the Giants Realm(The Heavens) and Space and Time

I just broke down the quote and it directly states that he is affecting it in some way.Your accusations of me just wanting to upgrade character cause I want to is a double standard just saying.

I am going through each comment one at a time. The smaller ones go faster, and thus I asnwer them first.


Ok for one, the Giants realm is considered "The Heveans", nor was it shown that Majora affected it. As you only enter that place after you clear an area from Majora's influence.


You broke down the sentence? Dude, I ******* quoted it a thousand times.

"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time."

Where does it stay that he is "directly affecting space and time"? Where? It doesn't exist.


And again, what I said wasn't an accusation, it was a statement of fact in your actions according to this thread. By proposing and supporting this upgrade, you are following a lack of logic to support this character to obtain a higher tier.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Your "broking down the sentence" is just a long way to say that the statement about Majora affecting the heavens, space and time means that people cannot escape its effects. Which doesn't contradict Majora actually affecting Space-Time.

No it isn't.

My breaking down of the sentence is a coherent way of stating that Majora's presence is felt throughout Termina because he ruined everyone's life.

It's all right here:

"And no, the quote is being written metaphorically as the emphasis of the sentence is on the "mischief spread by the Skull Kid" and how specifically, "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse".

That is what the Skull Kid's "influence" is, not his power, but the misery he has caused with that power throughout the location of the game - Termina - and to all of its citizens.

What the quote means by, "the moon, the heavens, space and time" is how the misery that the Skull Kid has made has spread everywhere - Majora's influence on the land is omnipresent in a sense because Majora has ruined everyone's lives personally with the posioning of the Swamp, raising the dead of Ikana, making Kafei a child and ruining his chances at marriage, and most importantly - dragging the moon down to kill everyone.


The quote isn't about Majora's power - it's about how Majora has ruined the lives of those in Termina, it represents all the overarching themes that are present in the game, and those themes are what makes the game so great."

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

You keep saying you address every point but I don't see that.

Address only this point:Majora's influence is his power in the quote

-The Moon,Majora used his powers's to bring the moon down to Termina that causes dread and doom this is Majora's omnipresence throughout Termina/his influence

-The Heavens(Giant's Realm) was altered and changed by Majora which caused dread another affect of Majora's influence which he caused using his powers

-Time and Space,for the millionth time which you have not adressed at all why would we assume that time and space is accurate when everything else is.Time and Space being affected is being affected by Majora's powers because the quote says so.All it takes is a little bit of reading comprehension,saying a quote is vague and flowery because it doesn't make sense to you is not a valid argument.As right now your argument has no base and is falling apart

 

[Jjmil3827]

How is the quote flowery at all it's very straight forward to me, Oblivion explains it perfectly

 

[Warren_Valion]

you continue to provide a flawed argument Majora's influence is his powers as the quote shows.Majora's influnce is him alter Time and Space,The Heavens,The Moon and in point to the 3-A stuff the entire parallel universe.He does so with his powers which in turn create the misery and dread felt by the people in Termina

Just wanna say this again

And how does Majora preform that influence?With his powers which he used to bring down the moon,alter the Giants Realm and effect Time and Space his influence coincides with his powers as Majora's influence without his powers would be nothing as he would be just a mask(albeit a freaky one)and with his powers he creates that sense of doom looming over Termina.

He used his powers to create the doom looming over Termina in the form of the moon.He altered the Giants Realm with his powers as well.He has control over time and space to his whim and can warp it as he pleases as this is all a game to him.Don't you see? Majora's infulence is his powers and it's up to Link/The player to stop Majora

And this

Again, you are associating powers with influence, which isn't accurate to the meaning of the sentence.


And again, nothing proves he can affect Space-Time. There is no feat, nor a realiable statement.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Warren, you're the one who's assuming the statement doesn't refer to his powers despite explicitly saying so.

"The influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time"

The statement is explicitly saying that Majora has been messing around with these four things. We see the moon having a creepy face and falling to destroy the planet, the heavens have been stripped of their deities which have been sealed away. So why would be the space and time part be not legit and/or only flowery language if everything else is not? And this is still related to the part about everyone's life turning bad, as the moon was just going to kill them and the monsters that have the seal to the giants were basically killing off the races of the four corners of Termina. So Majora messing around with time and space, and using that to bring misfortune to the people not only should be the main assumption with statements like these, but is extremely consistent with the other examples we got before.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

You keep saying you address every point but I don't see that.

Address only this point:Majora's influence is his power in the quote

-The Moon,Majora used his powers's to bring the moon down to Termina that causes dread and doom this is Majora's omnipresence throughout Termina/his influence

-The Heavens(Giant's Realm) was altered and changed by Majora which caused dread another affect of Majora's influence which he caused using his powers

-Time and Space,for the millionth time which you have not adressed at all why would we assume that time and space is accurate when everything else is.Time and Space being affected is being affected by Majora's powers because the quote says so.All it takes is a little bit of reading comprehension,saying a quote is vague and flowery because it doesn't make sense to you is not a valid argument.As right now your argument has no base and is falling apart

^This,address this it seems your the only one misinterpreting the feat/quote

 

[Warren_Valion]

I have addressed this.

You are taking this quote as fact, it isn't.

"And no, the quote is being written metaphorically as the emphasis of the sentence is on the "mischief spread by the Skull Kid" and how specifically, "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse".

That is what the Skull Kid's "influence" is, not his power, but the misery he has caused with that power throughout the location of the game - Termina - and to all of its citizens.

What the quote means by, "the moon, the heavens, space and time" is how the misery that the Skull Kid has made has spread everywhere - Majora's influence on the land is omnipresent in a sense because Majora has ruined everyone's lives personally with the posioning of the Swamp, raising the dead of Ikana, making Kafei a child and ruining his chances at marriage, and most importantly - dragging the moon down to kill everyone.

The quote isn't about Majora's power - it's about how Majora has ruined the lives of those in Termina, it represents all the overarching themes that are present in the game, and those themes are what makes the game so great."

By "the moon, the heveans, space and time" - it's referring to the setting of the game.That's what I mean by saying that "Majora's influence is omnipresent" Meaning that he can be felt in every corner of the game map.


Such phrases are used in fictions everywhere, even with ones without the supernatural elements. It's quite common, in fact, I can show you how common by bringing up another example from Zelda.

Remember this thread? It was another thread by you to upgrade the Triforce to 3-A by using this quote:

"If thou hast a strong desire or dream wish for it.." And in reply the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across Time and Space and even reached the far off land of Hyrule.The name of this King of theives is Ganondorf Dragmire"

This thread was rejected and closed for the same reasons I am proposing here.

In this quote, Time and Space are used in a metaphorical context in which it shows that Ganondorf's evil expanded across the world. You took it literally, and thus you decided that Ganon should be upgraded because of it. The problem there, was this statement wasn't literal and by taking it literally you would be massively overinflating the power of the character.

Do you see the similarities with that thread and this thread?


You need more substantial proof that the quote is literally talking about the space-time continuum.

Like you know with a feat?

 

[Warren_Valion]

I have exams to study for, chapters to read, and pages to annotate.

I can't spend all my time arguing back and forth here, especially since the arguments are so circular.


I am unfollowing this thread for know so I won't be tempted to respond in the meantime.

 

[TriforcePower1]

About that statement, actually it kinda got accepted, as it's the current reason we consider the Sacred Realm having a different Space-Time than Hyrule. What got disagreed with was that it was an AP feat as the laughter simply travelled through it.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Somewhat off topic, I saw cal calc'd the sacred realm restoration feat at like MFTL+ assuming it was a universe. Could we just do the same feat assuming it was solar system sized/whatever the current earth to sun distance size is?

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

-Yeah those 2 threads are vastly different just because they have the words time and space in them doesn't mean they're the same. It was a laugh/wish that traveled across Time and Space which is indefinite in size.Here we have a defined size bring 4-A and Time and Space being warped but you just ignore our reasonings as why it is legit

-Writing the same flawed argument over an over again is not proving anything your just stating stuff we already debunked.I showed and wrote so many times why it's his powers and not his influence your not debunking anything your just saying the same stuff over and over again

-It's not metaphorical when what the quote is saying is completely accurate as proven before above which you also continue to ignore and won't even address

-Stars in the sky is a 4-A feat and considering the amount of time Termina is referred to as a parallel Universe and seeing how it has time and space with countless stars really points to Termina being an alternate Universe than not,but we're focusing on 4-A stuff.

Right now your argument is flawed and you caused several people to disagree based on debunked reasonings.I hope they can see the new evidence and counters now.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Termina has to be like, absolute stupid bare minimum a stupidly high end 4-B realm, there's confirmed to be a starry sky (see the Stone Tower temple where when flipped you literally see a night sky at night), there exists aliens in verse meaning that there's further areas of outer space, it's called parallel to Hyrule, etc.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Oh no it's undoubtedly 4-A and very likely 3-A as being stated as a Parallel Universe

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Somewhat off topic, I saw cal calc'd the sacred realm restoration feat at like MFTL+ assuming it was a universe. Could we just do the same feat assuming it was solar system sized/whatever the current earth to sun distance size is?

Seems about right if Star Butterfly is MFTL due to a spell that can travel across Universes I don't see why not.Also needs a bump to FTL speeds due to Light Arrow scaling

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Quick correction, Star herself isn't MFTL+, the wand's attack speed is and that's via Skywene's spell. Someone told me they were able to get a frame by frame video of Wind Waker where Ganon casually dodged the light arrow when it was right next to him.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

I know it's Stars wand's attack speed but wouldn't it also work the same for the Triforce or would it just equate to range.Link should have the attack speed upgrade though

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Difference with triforce is that it can be scaled to the users speed since they're amped by it, Star isn't amped by wand.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Let me just change the title real quick.....

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Im asking people to re-evaluate their votes as new info was provided

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'll remain neutral, but the tier should be (if accepted) "At least 4-A, likely 3-A/Low 2-C (whichever ends up as being the more likely or whatev')", since they are arguments for both.

On that topic, will like to state that Skull Kid's "memory" of Termina is not enough proof that Majora didn't created it, since it comes from Tatl, who would've been created alongside it in the first place, making it a "fake memory" on the first place.

But like I said earlier, I don't agree nor disagree with anything that has been discussed.

What I do disagree with is "scaling attack speed" or whatever, and this scaling to anyone but the absolute god tiers (no Hylia nor Demise, only Full Triforce people), as anyone else does not have any basis to scale.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

I'll remain neutral, but the tier should be (if accepted) "At least 4-A, likely 3-A/Low 2-C (whichever ends up as being the more likely or whatev')", since they are arguments for both.

On that topic, will like to state that Skull Kid's "memory" of Termina is not enough proof that Majora didn't created it, since it comes from Tatl, who would've been created alongside it in the first place, making it a "fake memory" on the first place.

But like I said earlier, I don't agree nor disagree with anything that has been discussed.

What I do disagree with is "scaling attack speed" or whatever, and this scaling to anyone but the absolute god tiers (no Hylia nor Demise, only Full Triforce people), as anyone else does not have any basis to scale.

I agree with pretty much everything you said as I was thinking it over how Demise and Hylia should scale but they shouldn't as Majora,FD Link,Full Triforce Ganon,Composite Link and the Triforce should scale to these upgrades

At least 4-A likely Low 2-C works for me

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

@Lephyr Pls don't bring up the dreaded tier 2, you're only summoning a storm to ruin the fate of this thread going through.

Also we never said that attack speed scales to non-God tiers, I was referring to full triforce users only for that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Giver

Attack speed shouldn't scale like that, period. Unless Majora actually shows to fire a beam or whatever that covers the entire realm it shows to warp in an instant, then it shouldn't scale otherwise.

Since we don't, we shouldn't give it any speed based on that.

There is no context here to justify that it even has "a warping speed", it's simply hax. Nothing more.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah,reality warping or creation feats aren't speed feats at all; they're just AoE/speed. By that logic, everyone with Tier 2 or above reality warping/creation feats would be Immeasurable, which they're not.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Um... we're not talking about Majora's feat.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Somewhat off topic, I saw cal calc'd the sacred realm restoration feat at like MFTL+ assuming it was a universe. Could we just do the same feat assuming it was solar system sized/whatever the current earth to sun distance size is?

^This was the MFTL+ feat I was talking about.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

^This was the MFTL+ feat I was talking about.

Yeah this isn't a speed feat, that's AP. It would be like if a character can make explosions, and then scaling their speed to its detonation velocity.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"I also find it werid that we treat Zelda realms like the Sacred Realm/Dark World as less than universal when we don't for other verses, but that's a debate for a different thread. "

^

This. When gosh darn Subrosia is confirmed to be a full on universe, and iirc someone found a quote that said Termina was a parallel universe too (which it is), there's no reason for the vastly more important and prevalent Sacred Realm, which is the Goddesses' magnum opus next to the Triforce itself, to not be so.

But I digress. Like I said, imma watch this from afar.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I disagree with this due to Warren's points.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Warren seems to make sense. In addition, with him unfollowing the discussion and Azathoth missing in action, it seems very unwise to perform any major statistics revision for the franchise.

We should probably close this thread.