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Massive TLOZ Verse Upgrades

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Oblivion Lightning said:
^Triforce you wrote this well and agree with this,I think we should focus on 4-A for now and then work up to 3-A,Warren I do agree that Majora creating Termina is a bit contradicting

Sorry if I'm not active as I'm visiting my Grandpa who is unfortunately not feeling to well,sorry In advanced
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A lot of shit in the HE is contradicting, and it's why I don't consider it canon, but whatever.


When you get back, you might want to update the OP with the votes:

Agree: 2 (GiverOfThePeace, TriforcePower1)

Disagree: 4 (Warren Valio, ShadowWarrior1999, Antvasima, CrimsonStarFalle)

Undecided: 1 (Bobsica)

Neutral: 1 (DarkDragonMedeus)

You said a few people agreed with the upgrade off-thread, but I am pretty sure votes only matter on-thread so that's why I didn't include them.


And my condolences on your grandfather. I hope he gets better soon.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It also does need to be noted that Termina is clearly in a different world than Hyrule; not just a different country but an entirely different planet. It also does have time that works differently than Hyrule; though not enough proof to be a full timeframe, but I think pocket reality containing multiple stars does make sense.
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What are your thoughts Dark?


Do you still agree, or have the opposing arguments changed your mind?
 
I disagree with Universal tier now, and Majora didn't create Termina, but he still warped it. Warping it does still require context, but isn't quite outside the realm of possibility for an upgrade. If there's going to be an upgrade, 4-A is the best, but I'm more neutral on that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I disagree with Universal tier now, and Majora didn't create Termina, but he still warped it. Warping it does still require context, but isn't quite outside the realm of possibility for an upgrade. If there's going to be an upgrade, 4-A is the best, but I'm more neutral on that.
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So would you say your neutral? And that you desire more evidence before moving on?
 
Sorry,about not being on lately but finally have free time.

Alright,the 3-A stuff should be disregarded for now but in the quote about a parallel Universe is that it specifically states that Majora's power tainted/effected everything within the Universe or 4-A pocket dimension.

I agree with 4-A stuff and will remain open to new thoughts on 3-A stuff

Thanks,Warren for your condolences as he's currently not doing to well unfortunately.Ill try to keep up with the thread and continue to give input but not as consistent.
 
I too hope your grandfather is alright; I can also relate to that and even got something similar going on. Though, not quite sure how bad mine is in comparison, but still.
 
Yes, I hope that your grandfather will get better soon.
 
For 4-A support (I'll be counting for 4-A for now and we can go in depth on 3-A later sound good)

4-A

Support:Dark649,Giver,Trifiorce (Off thread I'm not counting until they actually put their input)

Neutral:Dark Dragon

Against:???(I know who is against 3-A but not for 4-A stuff)

And Dragon I do hope your Grandfather gets better as well as it's truly a sad time when a loved one is going through such hardships.If you want to talk about it feel free to do so as I'm sure I can relate :)
 
4-A reasonings

-Being able to have some form of warping over time and space within Termina as stated in the quote which would include countless stars.Although unspecific it implies that Majora at least has affected it in some way(likely warping as he has done with the land of Termina)

-The quote about Skull Kid altering everything in the parallel universe which would include countless stars(this would compliment the quote above well as time and space would fall under everything in the parallel universe.*I have not addressed this in-depth before in the thread)

-There is no real presentable outleir.Other than determining if Demise or Hylia scale(which I don't think they should)
 
Cal hasn't commented yet and says he's just going to see how it plays out. And Azathoth has been inactive for like 19 days, so he's quite busy.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
Others who said they were in suppourt when they have the chance to comment (Don't count these):Cal and Konaguna
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I debated the quote - stating it should be taking metaphorically, not literally. Those that said they agree with me, agree for these reasons. I didn't even bring up the 3-A stuff.

And thus it is the same vote count regardless.
 
Warren basically said he's against the 4-A stuff as well as 3-A. Terimina does clearly take place on a different planet and not just country for sure and is implied to be another dimension; like a pocket reality at least. Implied doesn't mean proven sure, which is why I'm more neutral; but we already agreed that 3-A is stretchy so focus on whether or not 4-A is legit.

Majora also may not have created Termina, but he does warp it to his will as what's implied.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
So your stance on 3-A stuff?
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I disagree with the upgrade in general, as I don't think what is presented here is a strong enough argument to upgrade these characters.

And I have problems with the HE quote as it contradicts what shown and said in the game as I mentioned in an eariler comment.


Although from a size standpoint, Termina is constantly called a parallel universe to Hyrule - and that can be seen with the citizens of Termina being counterparts to the ones in Hyrule.

I also find it werid that we treat Zelda realms like the Sacred Realm/Dark World as less than universal when we don't for other verses, but that's a debate for a different thread.
 
In regards to the quote.

1."Guise" by many synonyms means to mask,shape,form.

"Dark Guise" would mean a mask or alteration in a negative form

2.The Moon,The Dark Guise on the moon would be the alteration or face of the moon and it's crash course towards Termina

3.The Heavens,The Dark Guise on the heavens is the affects that Majora had on the Giants Chamber which has also referred to as the heavens,ask Triforce about that as well.

4.Since what the quote is saying is accurate about the evil alterations on the moon and the effects on the Giants chamber.Would'nt Time and Space be affected by this as well since the quote checks out?Also the statement about Skull Kid altering everything in the parallel universe which would include stars also check out as well as it is clearly stated as so?

I'm iffy on 3-A but 4-A is definitely something that needs to be addressed
 
Where are you getting "Dark Guise"? It's cursed guise.

Here's the quote:

"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time."

And Guise means "an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something."

It's talking about the Skull Kid being possessed by Majora.


And no, the quote is being written metaphorically as the emphasis of the sentence is on the "mischief spread by the Skull Kid" and how specifically, "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse".

That is what the Skull Kid's "influence" is, not his power, but the misery he has caused with that power throughout the location of the game - Termina - and to all of its citizens.

What the quote means by, "the moon, the heavens, space and time" is how the misery that the Skull Kid has made has spread everywhere - Majora's influence on the land is omnipresent in a sense because Majora has ruined everyone's lives personally with the posioning of the Swamp, raising the dead of Ikana, making Kafei a child and ruining his chances at marriage, and most importantly - dragging the moon down to kill everyone.


The quote isn't about Majora's power - it's about how Majora has ruined the lives of those in Termina, it represents all the overarching themes that are present in the game, and those themes are what makes the game so great.
 
Majora also may not have created Termina, but he does warp it to his will as what's implied.


The fact that he warped it to his will is also a major point as well which coincides with the fact that in the 1st quote Majora altered everything in the parallel universe which would also include the several stars as well,and to top it off we also have a quote that may be cryptic but states that Majora altered Time and Space in some way which would also again include contless stars.Even then we have statements from HH that state he warped all of Termina maybe not created it but altered and warped it.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
Majora also may not have created Termina, but he does warp it to his will as what's implied.The fact that he warped it to his will is also a major point as well which coincides with the fact that in the 1st quote Majora altered everything in the parallel universe which would also include the several stars as well,and to top it off we also have a quote that may be cryptic but states that Majora altered Time and Space in some way which would also again include contless stars.Even then we have statements from HH that state he warped all of Termina maybe not created it but altered and warped it.
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And again, I disagree with that notion.

Look at this cutscene.

Tatl remembers a drawing that Skull Kid and Tatl & Tale made on a tree when they first meet the Skull Kid before he put on the mask, before he became a psychotic monster. It then shows a cutscene depicting a non-possessed Skull Kid with Tatl and Tale taking place in Termina.

If Majora supposedly "altered everything in the parallel universe which would also include the several stars as well", then why does Termina looks the exact same both before the Skull Kid obtained the mask and after? Nothing has changed whatsoever.

And thus, I don't believe that Majora altered the entire dimension as it is shown in-game that when Majora alters reality, he changes it drastically from what it once was.

The only land that Majora altered are the four corners of the kingdom.


And no, the "space and time" quote isn't cryptic, it's metaphorical. There's a big difference.


And no, it doesn't state he "altered time and space" at all.

This is the quote:

"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time."

It says that his "and the influnece his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time". There is nothing about altering or manipulating anything, least of all space and time.

I literally just explained what this sentence meant in my previous comment, and I won't repeat myself again.
 
No the quote isn't refering to Majora's presence making everything miserable.

Quote1:States just before refering to Termina as an alternate Universe it states that the Deku Temple once has clear blue water and it's no poisonous and corrupted and then it stated "just like everything else in the parallel Universe".Majora obviously used his power to make the water that way and used it to alter everything in the parallel universe as stated.The result of Majora using his power is making everyone miserable

Quite2:Majora is using his power to alter the Moon,Heavens and Space Time which in result causes misery to everyone.This is all a game to Majora as in terms of mischief they mean Majora using his powers to make everyone miserable for his enjoyment.While Yes Majora's presence is making everyone miserable he is doing so with his powers by doing said things in the quote.

Majora's mischief is him using his powers to make everyone miserable and by making everyone miserable he is preforming said feats as well.And yeah those themes make the games so much better
 
I'm tired of arguing with you, it's just a circular argument.


The quote is metaphorical, I have explained why numerous times.

Your error is taking a metaphorical statement completely literally, and then trying to upgrade a character because of it. That's not how this works.

And because the quote is metaphorical, it can't be used to upgrade these characters, and so I, and everyone who voted for my reasons, are against the upgrade.
 
I really don't think Majora creating Termina is relevant anymore but just because we cannot see anything altered doesn't mean nothing happened as the quote gives insight to what happened.I don't think Majora's influence brought down the moon it was his powers that did so.Majora's presence did not cause corruption in the Giant's Realm it was his powers.Time and Space would also be affected by the influence by MAJORAS POWERS.Majora's presence would mean nothing as he is just a mask on a prankster,Majora's presence is apparent and causes everyone to be miserable due to his the dark power he possesses and how it is being used.
 
Warren Valion said:
I'm tired of arguing with you, it's just a circular argument.


The quote is metaphorical, I have explained why numerous times.

Your error is taking a metaphorical statement completely literally, and then trying to upgrade a character because of it. That's not how this works.

And because the quote is metaphorical, it can't be used to upgrade these characters, and so I, and everyone who voted for my reasons, are against the upgrade.
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I'm stating the simple fact that Majora altered the Moon,The Heaven(Giants Realm) and Space and Time as that's Majora's influence preformed by using his powers.You haven't addressed that point at all which is a huge flaw in saying that it's metaphorical when everything in the quote happens in game and it's a direct and offical quote your just stretching it to make it seem metaphorical it's very clear on what it means.Majora's presence as you explained makes no sense as Majora's presence would not make the moon fall it's his powers,his presence wouldn't change the Giants Realm it's his powers and Majora's presence would'nt guise Time and Space it's his powers.Unless you can bring a actual reasoning as to why it's metaphorical then this debate will continue as you keep using a flawed argument as a rebuke.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
I really don't think Majora creating Termina is relevant anymore but just because we cannot see anything altered doesn't mean nothing happened as the quote gives insight to what happened.I don't think Majora's influence brought down the moon it was his powers that did so.Majora's presence did not cause corruption in the Giant's Realm it was his powers.Time and Space would also be affected by the influence by MAJORAS POWERS.Majora's presence would mean nothing as he is just a mask on a prankster,Majora's presence is apparent and causes everyone to be miserable due to his the dark power he possesses and how it is being used.
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We see the dramatic change in landscape that Majora causes when he alters reality in the game. There is no such alteration in the past with Skull Kid before he puts on the mask, and there is no proof that it did.

Databooks being rejected because they contradict what was shown in the source material is a common thing here, I don't see why this shouldn't be any different.


And you are just not understanding.


It's not that Majora's presence brought down the moon.

It's how Majora's presence is omnipresent throughout "the heavens, space and time" because the people of Termina can't escape the moon falling.

Majora bringing the moon down is an indefinite reminder that Death is always looming, that constant fear of death brings misery - that's Majora's "influence".


This isn't that complicated man.
 
We see the dramatic change in landscape that Majora causes whehe alters reality in the game.


And you are just not understanding.


It's not that Majora's presence brought down the moon.

It's how Majora's presence is omnipresent throughout "the heavens, space and time" because the people of Termina can't escape the moon falling.

Majora bringing the moon down is an indefinite reminder that Death is always looming, that constant fear of death brings misery - that's Majora's "influence".


This isn't that complicated man.

And how does Majora preform that influence?With his powers which he used to bring down the moon,alter the Giants Realm and effect Time and Space his influence coincides with his powers as Majora's influence without his powers would be nothing as he would be just a mask(albeit a freaky one)and with his powers he creates that sense of doom looming over Termina.

He used his powers to create the doom looming over Termina in the form of the moon.He altered the Giants Realm with his powers as well.He has control over time and space to his whim and can warp it as he pleases as this is all a game to him.Don't you see? Majora's infulence is his powers and it's up to Link/The player to stop Majora
 
Warren Valion said:
And no, the quote is being written metaphorically as the emphasis of the sentence is on the "mischief spread by the Skull Kid" and how specifically, "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse".

That is what the Skull Kid's "influence" is, not his power, but the misery he has caused with that power throughout the location of the game - Termina - and to all of its citizens.

What the quote means by, "the moon, the heavens, space and time" is how the misery that the Skull Kid has made has spread everywhere - Majora's influence on the land is omnipresent in a sense because Majora has ruined everyone's lives personally with the posioning of the Swamp, raising the dead of Ikana, making Kafei a child and ruining his chances at marriage, and most importantly - dragging the moon down to kill everyone.


The quote isn't about Majora's power - it's about how Majora has ruined the lives of those in Termina, it represents all the overarching themes that are present in the game, and those themes are what makes the game so great.
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I already addressed your counter-argument a dozen times by now.

Until you bring up new arguments, I am done addressing this topic.
 
But you continue to provide a flawed argument Majora's influence is his powers as the quote shows.Majora's influnce is him alter Time and Space,The Heavens,The Moon and in point to the 3-A stuff the entire parallel universe.He does so with his powers which in turn create the misery and dread felt by the people in Termina
 
Just coming to this thread this was brought up in the past

by me, coff

And rejected on the basis that it was contradictory on what was presented by the game itself.

Will not argue in favor nor agaisnt, but wanted to point that out.
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
But you continue to provide a flawed argument Majora's influence is his powers as the quote shows.Majora's influnce is him alter Time and Space,The Heavens,The Moon and in point to the 3-A stuff the entire parallel universe.He does so with his powers which in turn create the misery and dread felt by the people in Termina
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Majora's "influence" is his misery, not his powers. I have explained this before.

Yes, he causes misery with his powers, but Majora's powers aren't what the sentence is focusing on, again, for reasons I have explained before.

You are making an Associations Fallacy .

Just because Majora causes misery with his powers, doesn't mean the quote which is talking about the misery that Majora has caused throughout Termina is referring to his powers.

I have explained the meaning of this quote before in-detail.


And again, read the quote. There is no point where it says that Majora is "altering space and time". I have addressed this already:

"And no, it doesn't state he "altered time and space" at all.

This is the quote:

"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time."

It says that his "and the influnece his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time". There is nothing about altering or manipulating anything, least of all space and time. "

Also, there is no evidence that Majora has altered or manipulated "the heveans" or "space-time" in any way.


You are taking a metaphorical sentence literally, and are making a huge stretch so you can upgrade a character's tier.
 
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