Massive FF9 Revisions/Upgrades

[KinkiestSins]

EDIT: Ability revisions accepted, High 4-C calc basically rejected due to it not being AP.


http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Crystal_World


http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Memoria_(Final_Fantasy_IX)

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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KinkiestSins/FF9_Grand_Cross_Calc


We also need to upgrade the abilities and powers of each character.

Support abilities in ff9 are basically abilities that happen in battle passively. In other words, they always start.

Some of them give good resistance to hax.

http://www.ffwa.eu/ff9/abilities.php?page=support

Zidane has Auto Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float (Levitation/True Flight) Auto-Haste (Limited Time Manipulation) Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Auto-Life (Resurrection), Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Add Status (Zidane can add Silence, Slow, Sleep, Doom, Petrify, Confusion and Silence to his Weapon) MP Attack also might count towards power drai

Vivi has Auto Reflect and Reflectx2 (Magic Reflection and the magic becomes twice as powerful), Auto-Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste (Limited Time Manipulation) Auto-Life (Resurrection), Auto-Regen (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Reflect-Null (Counters Reflect), Mag Elemental Null (Can change the properties of his magic to be non elemental), Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Return Magic (Counter), Death Manipulation via Death. Time Manipulation via Stop and Slow, Add Status (Can add Blind, Slow, Confuse, Mini to his Weapons)

Garnet has Auto Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste (Limited Time Manipulation), Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Reflect Null (Counters Reflect), Concentrate (Leads to Higher AP), Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Fire Manipulation (Via Ifrit), Ice Manipulation (Via Shiva), Lightning Manipulation (Via Ramuh), Death Manipulation via (Odin), Darkness Manipulation (Via Ark), Scan (Via Scan Ability), Transmutation via (Mini), Limited Mind Control via (Berserk and Confuse), Stats Amplification via (Shell and Protect, helps protect her from physical and magical attacks), Can Blind People with (Blind)


Steiner has Auto Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste (Limited Time Manipulation), Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Counter via (Counter), Add Status (He can add Freeze, Life Drain, Sleep and Slow to his weapons),

Quina (Oh boy this is going to be a long one) has Auto Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste (Limited Time Manipulation), Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Auto-Life/Life (Grants Resurrection) Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Death Manipulation with (Doom, LV5 Death, Roulette) Limited Probability Manipulation via (Roulette hits a target randomly, can even kill Quina), Mighty Guard (Grants himself and the party Shell and Protect), Frost (Freezing), Wind, Water and Earth Manipulation, Bad Breath (Inflicts Confuse, Darkness, Poison, Slow, and Mini), Sleep Manipulation via (Night, although this hits quina and the party as well), Add Status (Can grant Stop, Petrify, Sleep and Slow to his weapon)

Freya has Auto Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste (Limited Time Manipulation), Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Auto-Life/Life (Grants Resurrection) Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Limited Mind Control (Luna can inflict berserk on enemy targets), Add Status (Can grant Freeze, Stop, Blindness, Petrify and Confuse)

Eiko has Auto Reflect/Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float/Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste/Haste (Limited Time Manipulation), Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Auto-Life/Life (Grants Resurrection) Auto Life/Full Life/Phoenix (Resurrection) Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Can cure herself from status effects via Esuna, Silence (Power Nullifcation), Earth and Wind Manipulation via (Fenrir), Fire Manipulation (Via Phoenix), Holy Manipulation via (Madeen)


Armarant has Auto Reflect/Reflect (Magic Reflection), Auto-Float/Float (Levitation/True Flight), Auto-Haste/Haste (Limited Time Manipulation), Auto-Regen/Potion (Mid-Low Regenerationn), Auto-Life/Life (Grants Resurrection) Body Temp (Resistance to Extreme Temperatures and Freezing), Insomniac (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), Anti-Body (Resistance to Poison), Bright Eyes (Resistance to Blindness), Jelly (Resistance to Petrification) Locomotion (Resistance to Time Stop) Clearheaded (Mild Resistance to Mind Control via Confusion), Add Status (Can add Poison, OHK, Berserk and Blindness to his weapons)


Mostly everything else on the page is right. So it is just these massive changes admittedly

Let me know what you guys think, there might be a few that escaped the cracks.

Also some weapons do damage in a specific element so it is worthy enough to mention.


Weapons will likely be listed later in the profile

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_IX_weapons

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems reasonable, but I would appreciate further staff input.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I agree, I dont want to abuse the 'highlight thread' button though.

I think Ever, Reppuzan and Dark can comment their thoughts.

If they approve the below changes, I think it is good imo

If the calc group approves my calc, then we can do the first changes as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. The calculation needs to be evaluated first.

You can ask the others to comment here if you wish.

 

[Reppuzan]

This seems reasonable for the most part, but Ever and Dark should respond here since they know FFIX better than I do.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Dark649]

We cannot list abilities via game mechanic items and weapons, also because the player can't add all them at once and also other final fantasy and rpg games profiles does not have these things listed.

Necron grand cross scales only to him via this attack [Which needs to be avaluated since i recall a much lower calc from Narutoforum] if it will be higher than their current ap because it does not physically damage or caused destruction to the party.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

I personally think that the "they cannot be equipped all at once" rule is just an RPG mechanic.

Technically speaking, the vast majority of Final Fantasy abilities are optional and are rarely used in the story. I don't think we should just strip these abilities away just because of game and story mechanics.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with Reppu on that element.

 

[Dark649]

@Dark I don't think we should just strip these abilities away just because of game and story mechanics.

Then by the same logic, it would apply the same for FFX characters where Tidus can learn all the abilities: ranging from black, white/healing magic to other abilities, and it would apply to a lot of other rpg characters.

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't mind as long as it's within reason

 

[KinkiestSins]

We allow the same thing for link, other rpg characters and castlevania, why should we get an exception for ff9?

As for the calc, I admit I made a few assumptions. But considering. A. Necron said he wanted to turn everything back to 'Zero', and grand cross shows an explosion engulf a planet and six moons, I thought the assumption was safe to make in the first place.

B. Grand Cross may be more focused on status effects, but it is still an attack. The explosion looked to be a sphere that engulfed the moons. We also know it is omni directional because the moons in the back of the planet were also engulfed, hinting that it is a spherical blast.

(But I have to wait for the calc group to respond)

Edit: Yeah, Necron is also 'possibly Universe' level on the obd wiki. https://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/fictions/1175-character-profile-necro Which partly makes sense since he is the embodiment of the void, ever and I chatted about this. I doubt this is conclusive enough on its own.

But worth a thought.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I also wanna add these are not all the abilities in game. I set aside abilities that are strict game mechanics (those that buff your attack power, your mp/hp etc) These are just the ones that are most relevant.

Baku and Blank mentioned these abilities in game via the story so they do have a little more weight then just being game mechanics imo.

 

[KinkiestSins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgXJ6i5y3po&t=194s


"You stand before the final dimension and I am the darkness of eternity"


"Kuja was a victim of his own fear. He concluded he could only save himself by destroying the origin of all things- the crystal"


"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life"


These are some quotes from Necron talking about destroying the 'universe'. As mentioned above, Everlasting and I talked in pm about this.

While I am not a big fan of it, I think it is worthy enough to mention.

Necron is the emodiment of death so it does partly make sense when he wants to turn everything back to the 'Zero World'

Also, It was immensely hinted at Ultima killed the party which is why you got to meet Necron in the first place.

I will let you guys be the judge.

 

[Dark649]

Promestein knows all the abilities, which the characters should have. Also Necron is not universal because he was planning to destroy the universe via the destruction of the original crystal as said by Kuja, who knocked the party and did not killed them. Also Necron was destroyed, not permantly, but was destroyed by the party because they attacked him, chosed life and rejected death.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Sins

I'm pretty sure Necron is very different in the Japanese versions. Someone will wanna check that.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Promestein knows all the abilities, which the characters should have, so he'll respond to that. Also Necron is not universal because he was planning to destroy the universe via the destruction of the original crystal as said by Kuja, who knocked the party and did not killed them. Also Necron was destroyed, not permantly, but was destroyed by the party because they attacked him, chosed life and rejected death.

Yeah, so do I.

It is not like we have not done this before.

And I never said he was destroyed permanantly. He has type 8 immortality

Cant find also a japanese boss fight of necron btw @ever

 

[KinkiestSins]

Bump

 

[KinkiestSins]

bump pls

I think it is even roughly

Do you agree with the changes? @Repuzzan and Ever?

I know dark disagrees, and I think you are okay with it repuzzan

Just wanted to double check.

 

[Reppuzan]

I gave it the okay.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Dark, do you still disagree with the changes?

I think they are generally pretty reasonable.

And I dont want to make the other pages without this change being decided on.

 

[Dark649]

I will call Promestein to comment about it, the abilities and resistancies can be turned on and off, the Grand Cross calc has not been evaluated and it didn't affected the party.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I will call Promestein to comment about it, the abilities and resistancies can be turned on and off, the Grand Cross calc has not been evaluated and it didn't affected the party.

I dont understand the last one? What do you mean it did not affect the party?

Edit: Wanna add if this is an issue with you, we can make another key on his profile and for cross verse matchups, specify if this is zidane with complete abilities/unrestricted.

Seems like a good compromise.

 

[Dark649]

It's better to wait for Promestein to comment about it. Necron Grand Cross was shown to shown affect the planets and therefore the characters and they were engulfed by the energy, but it did not caused any destruction nor damage to them and the planets at all, Sephiroth Supernova on the other hand it phisically affected the party because they took the core of Supernova and caused damage on them.

 

[KinkiestSins]

It's better to wait for Promestein to comment about it. Necron Grand Cross was shown to shown affect the planets and therefore the characters and they were engulfed by the energy, but it did not caused any destruction nor damage to them and the planets at all, Sephiroth Supernova on the other hand it phisically affected the party because they took the core of Supernova and caused damage on them.

It could be in the same view though as destructive capacity via aoe, right?

I am sure we rank esdeath and fujitora the same.

If approved, we can specifiy

At Least High 5-A with High 4-C Environmental destructive capacity.

If the low end is accepted, we can probably just 'downgrade' the characters to Dwarf Star Level.

I admit tho the calc made some assumptions. I do think I wanna add that Necron saying he wanted to turn the planet back to zero world if you lowball him.

I think sub atomic destruction of an earth like planet is high end 5-A to High 5-A.

I think.

Edit: I am not unsure of the math, but low end if you sub atomically destroyed the mass, it is 5-A, with GBE it is High 4-C still.

 

[Dark649]

He did not caused any enviromental damage at all, the planets and characters were shown physically unscathed after the attack and sub atomic destruction was not mentioned at all, laslty Necron was going to destroy the original crystal. He is just a being born from Kuja fear and the concept of death was present even before he was born.

 

[KinkiestSins]

He did not caused any enviromental damage at all, the planets and characters were shown physically unscathed after the attack and sub atomic destruction was not mentioned at all, laslty Necron was going to destroy the original crystal. He is just a being born from Kuja fear and the concept of death was present even before he was born.

We also saw a fade to color white and it is left ambigious admitedly,

But I thought the point of environmental destructive capacity was to rate AOE without damage but with radius?

Also, that is what Kuja said. Not what necron was going to do. He just said he was going to return everything to the Zero World. Kuja destroyed the crystal before the fight, which is why you met necron in the first place.

You kinda.... well, 'died'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg9i3zTUTLQ

Since we cant quantify nothingness, we can take it a step lower and quantify sub atomic destruction.

Since void in the final fantasy series as whole is empty space, as shown in 3 and 5.

Edit: In the video, necron says he would return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life.

Thus, destroying the crystal is not how he will destroy gaja, but rather the destruction of the crystal is a consequence, not the cause of returning everything to the zero world.

Thus in simple terms.

Cause: Necron destroys the world

Effect: No life and no crystal to give life.

 

[Dark649]

Nope, if Kuja really destroyed the crystal everything would have disappeared and there would have been no ending and final fight at all.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Nope, if Kuja really destroyed the crystal everything would disappeared and there would have been no ending and final fight at all.

But that does not counter my main point.

Necron didnt say he would destroy the crystal, kuja did.

It is just a consequence of his actions.

Sorry if I didnt make that point across, but generally speaking necron never said he would destroy the crystal and return everything back to nothing, but the reverse.

Edit: Necron also stated "Kuja was a victim of his own fear. He concluded he could only save himself by destroying the origin of all things, the crystal"

He didnt use 'by attempting to destroy'. but by 'destroying'

Thus he succeeded or was at the very least close enough for him to summon necron.

 

[Dark649]

It's better to wait for Promestein to respond before changing the profiles, also why did Necron wanted to turn everything back to nothing if that was what would have happened if Kuja really destroyed the crystal?.

 

[KinkiestSins]

It's better to wait for Promestein to respond before changing the profiles, also why did Necron wanted to turn everything back to nothing if that was what would have happened if Kuja really destroyed the crystal?.

He probably meant he wanted to return the universe to nothing, but lowballing him realistically..

Kuja destroyed the crystal in Memoria, but this was to get rid of life, both new and old.

Necron stated as well that Kuja's actions proved that life lives to perish.

It is fairly likely that all Kuja did was at best destroy all life on Gaja, similarly how he did on Terra expect faster/more sudden.

At worst, destroyed the crystal at memoria.

Crystals bring life, sure. But they dont bring the other parts.. a planet, time/space etc etc.

I am not saying Necron is Low 2-C, but more so the crystal seems to act closer to a stabilizing piece. Without it, there is no life and why necron showed up in the first place.

The dialogue shows that before the battle.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Or in simple terms.

Crystal = Life manipulation

But necron wanted to go beyond that and turn all life into the 'void' and return it to nothingness.

Edit: FF Wiki confirms it, Garland said the crystal is merely the source of all life, not the matter itself

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Crystal_(term)#Final_Fantasy_IX

 

[KinkiestSins]

Unfortunately, to make things more complicated. Memoria seems to be an aspect of the crystal world which shows the entire history of 'life' in gaja and the universe it seems.

One more piece of evidence where obd is right and I might have to accept 3-A/Low 2-C ff9

 

[Dark649]

The party would not scale to the final boss then, which is the same for Bartz not scaling to Neo Exdeath and Squall not scaling to Time Compression Ultimecia.

 

[KinkiestSins]

The party would not scale to the final boss then, which is the same for Bartz not scaling to Neo Exdeath and Squall not scaling to Time Compression Ultimecia.

I understand we do that for a reason.

I however am biased against such proposal mostly because I already disagree with those two examples.

That said, what do we rank him?

I agree at the surface value, but it does give an unknown on what we should rank the party.

We rank Bartz and Squall at Galaxy level, right? (Not sure why we do so for bartz tbh)

I know this is admitedly featless, but think we can do the same to FF9?

Or we can add the 'Possibly Low 2-C' for Zidane and party.

Its inconclusive at best though.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Since the crystal is life and necron wanted to destroy everything where not even a crystal can exist to shape a universe, it does lean more in favor of Low 2-C.

I really want another opinion on this though.

 

[Dark649]

I will also call the Everlasting and i disagree with the possibly Low 2-C and the scaling to the final bosses some parties.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I will also call the Everlasting and i disagree with the possibly Low 2-C and the scaling to the final bosses some parties.

Sure, now we wait.

...again.

 

[Dark649]

There is nothing else i can say, but if Promestein and Everlasting agrees with your proposals then you can upgrade them.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I made an edit above too show where the discussion is heading.

I will do more research in effort to 'debunk' this or 'support' it.

That said, if someone can provide japanese sources or the ultimania sources, we should take those sources seriously.