Massacre Solider vs Oni

[That_moron2]

1: Why are you scaling Hera to Yamato

I was scaling Hera to Zeus.

2: When did that even happen?

Fulgora

 

[That_moron2]

You bring good points. Even so I would say that Yamato is still shown to be a bit slower.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'll never understand where the "Yamato and Kaido clashed Thunder Baguas" argument comes from. That just never happened.

Mhm.
So like I was saying.

I was scaling Hera to Zeus.

Fulgora

Fair but do you really think that's on par with the version of Kaidou that Yamato fought?

 

[Kachon123]

Mhm.
So like I was saying.

They hit each other. They didn't actually clash weapons.

 

[Fireld]

2. Yamato is shown to be slower than Kaidou in the rest of the fight.

A lot slower

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Average argument from Kachon.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

A lot slower

Why'd you delete the first time

 

[Fireld]

Why'd you delete the first time

Cause i made grammar errors & had a pic off order

 

[Kachon123]

Average argument from Kachon.

?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

?

Your argument sucks because it's clearly contradicted by the picture, that's what I'm saying.
Sorry.

 

[Kachon123]

Your argument sucks because it's clearly contradicted by the picture, that's what I'm saying.
Sorry.

How is it contradicted by the picture?

In fact, your stance is contradicted by the manga.

Right after Yamato and Kaido used Thunder Bagua, we see direct damage to each of their faces (Kaido bleeding slighty from the forehead and Yamato's Kagamiyama getting Shattered).

If it was a clash of weapons like you said, neither of them would have gotten hurt (unless one overpowered the other like this), instead, they would have gone by each other unscathed.

The fact that there is visible damage on their heads is proof that they just had a dual exchange (like this), and not a weapon clash

 

[DaMonkeMan]

How is it contradicted by the picture?

In fact, your stance is contradicted by the manga.

Right after Yamato and Kaido used Thunder Bagua, we see direct damage to each of their faces (Kaido bleeding slighty from the forehead and Yamato's Kagamiyama getting Shattered).

If it was a clash of weapons like you said, neither of them would have gotten hurt (unless one overpowered the other like this), instead, they would have gone by each other unscathed.

The fact that there is visible damage on their heads is proof that they just had a dual exchange (like this), and not a weapon clash

You do realize they'd still have to move at relative speeds for that though, right? They were both using their speed blitz attacks there and both got each other.

 

[Kachon123]

You do realize they'd still have to move at relative speeds for that though, right? They were both using their speed blitz attacks there and both got each other.

I never brought up speed. Stop trying to derail by putting words in my mouth and address my points which are in your words, "contradicted."

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Asshole. I was talking about their exchange because Moron said Yamato was slower than Kaidou, which is slightly true but we have evidence that she's relative to him in speed and other stats. Don't know why you're acting so pissy.

 

[Kachon123]

Asshole. I was talking about their exchange because Moron said Yamato was slower than Kaidou, which is slightly true but we have evidence that she's relative to him in speed and other stats. Don't know why you're acting so pissy.

If you're talking to/about Moron, then do that. Don't reply to me. I'm not Moron. Moron is not me.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

The hell?
If I'm arguing with Moron and you butt in to try and counter my argument I have the right to also argue with you. If you don't wanna be in this debate, don't get in it. Simple. Ain't like we spam pinged you and made you come here.

 

[Kachon123]

The hell?
If I'm arguing with Moron and you butt in to try and counter my argument I have the right to also argue with you. If you don't wanna be in this debate, don't get in it. Simple

Notice how I never mentioned anyone when I initially said the Yamato-Kaido clash statement. That was because I DID NOT WAS TO BUTT INTO YOUR DEBATE. It was a comment for anyone who believe otherwise, and yet you replied to me, which started another debate.

Ain't like we spam pinged you and made you come here.

You're a brick

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Notice how I never mentioned anyone when I initially said the Yamato-Kaido clash statement. That was because I DID NOT WAS TO BUTT INTO YOUR DEBATE. It was a comment for anyone who believe otherwise, and yet you replied to me, which started another debate.

And I believe otherwise. You saw me mention the clash and said that " ambiguous " message.

You're a brick

Damn, my name's Eseseso?

 

[Kachon123]

You saw me mention the clash and said that " ambiguous " message.

Yeah, so that I won't directly interject in your debate that was still going on. You could have replied whenever. It wasn't meant to be ambiguous. it was meant to be respectful so it won't seem like we were tag-teaming you, especially when I already said that I was voting for Yamato.

And I believe otherwise

What?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Yeah, so that I won't directly interject in your debate that was still going on. You could have replied whenever. It wasn't meant to be ambiguous. it was meant to be respectful so it won't seem like we were tag-teaming you, especially when I already said that I was voting for Yamato.

Is this what we've come to? Arguing for hours on every thread we see each other in? I think we should start agreeing to disagree, how 'bout that?

What?

And I believe otherwise.

That was because I DID NOT WAS TO BUTT INTO YOUR DEBATE. It was a comment for anyone who believes otherwise, and yet you replied to me, which started another debate.

 

[Kachon123]

Cringe

 

[DaMonkeMan]

 

[Eseseso]

Ok, you 2 need to ******* chill.

 

[Eminiteable]

Yamato's Bagua should be slower than Kaidou if we compade it to their base forms.

Luffy foresaw base Yamato's Bagua on Ulti, he couldn't see base Kaidou's one handed Bagua used against himself even when he knew it was coming and was using future sight to predict it.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Well Hybrid Yamato is faster than base.
Also I don't think Oda really thought about Yamato being comparable to Kaidou in speed when he wrote that page with her one shotting Ulti.

 

[Fireld]

Didn't she have the cuffs when she did it on Ulti?

 

[Eminiteable]

Didn't she have the cuffs when she did it on Ulti?

She did, but, since making the profile I have grown dubious on how much those seastone cuffs actually "nerfed" her if or if they nerfed her at all.

My reasoning being that although the cuffs are stated to be made from seastone the actual potency of said seastone can't really be all that strong considering Luffy made direct contact with them and didn't feel anything and was able to use his advanced haki without issue despite the fact that even when he was wearing weak seastone cuffs he couldn't use haki at all a few days prior.

Yamato has had these cuffs on since childhood and if she was truly being nerfed by them It wouldn't make much sense that she's got such proficiency with haki and her own devil fruit when if she was nerfed she wouldn't have been able to use either, there's also no mention or showings of her being stronger after removing the cuffs.

Well Hybrid Yamato is faster than base.

So is Kaidou and if I've read the thread correctly I believe people have argued from Hybrid Kaidou being faster than Hybrid Yamato.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

So is Kaidou and if I've read the thread correctly I believe people have argued from Hybrid Kaidou being faster than Hybrid Yamato.

Doesn't she still scale to his speed though? She should at least be comparable.

 

[Eminiteable]

Doesn't she still scale to his speed though? She should at least be comparable.

Comparable but slower.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That should be enough to blitz Killer though.

 

[Eminiteable]

Well Killer is faster than Base Kaidou considering he landed a hit on him before Kaidou could strike him

 

[Fireld]

My reasoning being that although the cuffs are stated to be made from seastone the actual potency of said seastone can't really be all that strong considering Luffy made direct contact with them and didn't feel anything and was able to use his advanced haki without issue despite the fact that even when he was wearing weak seastone cuffs he couldn't use haki at all a few days prior.

Yamato has had these cuffs on since childhood and if she was truly being nerfed by them It wouldn't make much sense that she's got such proficiency with haki and her own devil fruit when if she was nerfed she wouldn't have been able to use either, there's also no mention or showings of her being stronger after removing the cuffs.

It probably wasn't 100% seastone like the ones used for prisoners. I would agrue Luffy resistance to stamina drain grew from the start of Udon to the beginning of Onigashima, seeing how much he countinued to train more after that scene. I specify it's the stamina drain that makes haki harder to use not seastone in itself since Smoker in PH could cover his entire Jitte in Haki including the seastone tip.

Kaku, Kalifla & Sabo pretty good with their DF right after getting them, with the CP9 agents coming with several techniques. Blackbeard replicated WB's Kaishin, Quake Bubble & Shima Yurashi right away(Granted he had the advantage of seeing WB in action for years. She might have that kid of advantage to seeing how Onigashima is full of Zoans) She had those for much longer than Luffy therefore had more time to adapt with them to use haki.

Also I don't think Oda really thought about Yamato being comparable to Kaidou in speed when he wrote that page with her one shotting Ulti.

I wonder if she speed grew in speed post-Kaido's beatdown?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Well Killer is faster than Base Kaidou considering he landed a hit on him before Kaidou could strike him

Hm. Same for the Scabbards then. Same for Yamato... she hit Hybrid Kaidou on his right facial cheek before he could do anything. Etc.
Using your logic.. a few people are faster than him.

 

[Fireld]

Luffy foresaw base Yamato's Bagua on Ulti, he couldn't see base Kaidou's one handed Bagua used against himself even when he knew it was coming and was using future sight to predict it.

This is him supposed to be him reacting to the Thunder Bagua's speed with FS? He could've sensed her before she did that move. Or the aftermath of Ulti getting knocked down.

 

[Eminiteable]

It probably wasn't 100% seastone like the ones used for prisoners. I would agrue Luffy resistance to stamina drain grew from the start of Udon to the beginning of Onigashima, seeing how much he countinued to train more after that scene. I specify it's the stamina drain that makes haki harder to use not seastone in itself since Smoker in PH could cover his entire Jitte in Haki including the seastone tip.

It definitely wasn't 100%, but, even if Luffy had grown stronger than that point to where he can't feel the effects of that level of seastone & his haki isn't hindered it still would suggest that Yamato herself wasn't being nerfed by the seastone cuffs as via Haoshoku her willpower surpasses that version of Luffy and thus her resistance to the effects of seastone also surpass Luffy's own resistance.

Meaning, she wasn't being nerfed (When it comes to Smoker it more so has to do with the Devil Fruit user themselves not making contact with Sea stone rather than their haki or even devil fruit powers as seen with Law).

Kaku, Kalifla & Sabo pretty good with their DF right after getting them, with the CP9 agents coming with several techniques. Blackbeard replicated WB's Kaishin, Quake Bubble & Shima Yurashi right away(Granted he had the advantage of seeing WB in action for years. She might have that kid of advantage to seeing how Onigashima is full of Zoans) She had those for much longer than Luffy therefore had more time to adapt with them to use haki.

It's possible, all I'm saying is the Yamato prior to having her cuffs removed (the one who hit Ulti) was most likely not being nerfed at all based on the evidence we have.

I wonder if she speed grew in speed post-Kaido's beatdown?

I'm pretty sure bolo breath isn't as fast as say Kaidou's physicals considering many characters who struggled to react to Kaidou's physical blows were able to dodge it.

As for her being able to perceive Hybrid Kaidou against Gear 5th, that's something she should already be capable of based on her own feats. Although, it should be noted both Luffy & Kaidou were close to their physical limit.

This is him supposed to be him reacting to the Thunder Bagua's speed with FS? He could've sensed her before she did that move.

It is, not sure I agree with the anime's interpretation considering they dragged out the scene (specifically in the anime the thunder bagua scenes seem drag out instead of being blitzes like in the manga)

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'm pretty sure bolo breath isn't as fast as say Kaidou's physicals considering many characters who struggled to react to Kaidou's physical blows were able to dodge it.

As for her being able to perceive Hybrid Kaidou against Gear 5th, that's something she should already be capable of based on her own feats. Although, it should be noted both Luffy & Kaidou were close to their physical limit.

Hybrid Kaidou WAS tired, and we see him kneeling on his Kanabo ready to rest/sleep after he assumes Luffy's dying from G5's stamina limit.
However, he was still hitting hard and fast, and reacting to Luffy's attacks.

 

[Fireld]

It definitely wasn't 100%, but, even if Luffy had grown stronger than that point to where he can't feel the effects of that level of seastone & his haki isn't hindered it still would suggest that Yamato herself wasn't being nerfed by the seastone cuffs as via Haoshoku her willpower surpasses that version of Luffy and thus her resistance to the effects of seastone also surpass Luffy's own resistance.

Meaning, she wasn't being nerfed (When it comes to Smoker it more so has to do with the Devil Fruit user themselves not making contact with Sea stone rather than their haki or even devil fruit powers as seen with Law).

I gotta be honest, THIS is better reasoning than her page currently for stamina resistance. Noted for later

It's possible, all I'm saying is the Yamato prior to having her cuffs removed (the one who hit Ulti) was most likely not being nerfed at all based on the evidence we have.

She & Kaido would still have different DF hybrid because of the cuffs not allowing fight/train with it(Like how she equaled Ace with just with Armament & didn't bother to tip the scales with her DF if she really had it available)

I'm pretty sure bolo breath isn't as fast as say Kaidou's physicals considering many characters who struggled to react to Kaidou's physical blows were able to dodge it.

As for her being able to perceive Hybrid Kaidou against Gear 5th, that's something she should already be capable of based on her own feats. Although, it should be noted both Luffy & Kaidou were close to their physical limit.

Those Bolo Breaths were from Normal Zoan Kaido and their ~ his physicals(Oden clashed with his base & BB tagged him for example). But this one was from his Druken Zoan who's above his normal version.

But they should still be faster than Base Kaido. G2nd Luffy & Hybrid Lucci were pushed to their limit, they didn't just drastictcally drop their speed afterwards.

It is, not sure I agree with the anime's interpretation considering they dragged out the scene (specifically in the anime the thunder bagua scenes seem drag out instead of being blitzes like in the manga)

Even in the manga: he just says "huh?", Ulti turns around, then she used Thunder Bagua & Luffy looked suprised even after Ulti's knock down. Couldn't her prensence in general alarmed his haki? Or Ulti's sudden incoming knock down?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

fight/train

Link ain't working bud.

 

[Eminiteable]

She & Kaido would still have different DF hybrid because of the cuffs not allowing fight/train with it(Like how she equaled Ace with just with Armament & didn't bother to tip the scales with her DF if she really had it available)

True, but if we go off her feats in Base and Hybrid and compare them to Kaidou's base and hybrid she's still shown to be inferior in feats even if she didn't have the opportunity to grow stronger with her fruit like he did.

Those Bolo Breaths were from Normal Zoan Kaido and their ~ his physicals(Oden clashed with his base & BB tagged him for example). But this one was from his Druken Zoan who's above his normal version.

But they should still be faster than Base Kaido. G2nd Luffy & Hybrid Lucci were pushed to their limit, they didn't just drastictcally drop their speed afterwards.

The specific example I was thinking off was act 1 base Luffy dodging a Bolo breath from drunk Kaidou & Shinobu reacting in time to avoid being hit by it.

Also while Kaidou being drunk amped his haki if I remember correctly his physical stats were shown roughly to be around the same level as before.

Even in the manga: he just says "huh?", Ulti turns around, then she used Thunder Bagua & Luffy looked suprised even after Ulti's knock down. Couldn't her prensence in general alarmed his haki? Or Ulti's sudden incoming knock down?

I think he was more so surprised by the fact Ulti was knocked out rather than him getting blitzed.

I suppose a better example than Luffy that requires less interpretation would be Ulti reacting to Yamato's thunder Bagua (this was shown in the anime and manga) and comments later that it's inferior to Kaidou's.

 

[That_moron2]

Hm. Same for the Scabbards then. Same for Yamato... she hit Hybrid Kaidou on his right facial cheek before he could do anything. Etc.
Using your logic.. a few people are faster than him.

Thing is Killer blitzed from meters away.