Marvel Speed Downgrades

[Antvasima]

I agree with Zark, and would appreciate if we all try to be calm and respectful here.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I have read thousands of Marvel comicbooks, and my impression is that considerably more often than not, the powerhouses are treated as comparable to or inferior to Spider-Man in speed, and as much slower than Quicksilver.

Getting a feeling of deja vu here. I remember commenting on another thread dealing with the same issue.

Imho, if the characters who don't have their own MFTL+ feats are most consistently portrayed as slower than Spidey, then it's not an outlier for Spidey to keep up with them. Instead it's an outlier for said characters to keep up with characters who have MFTL+ feats of their own.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I haven't read the entire thread and looked at the arguments yet, and right now I only have the time to give my general opinion on Marvel's speed.

We can generally separate characters into two groups: those that have actual MFTL+ feat(s) on their own, and those that don't.

The first group is much smaller and would include Gladiator as the prime example, while the second would include those like Hercules and She-Hulk. The characters in the second group spend almost all of their time fighting alongside slow Earth characters like most of the Avengers, Spider-Man, etc.

Because editorial absolutely cannot allow one character to utterly blitz and outshine all the others in a given issue, we often have instances where people like Gladiator seem to just move much slower than they're capable of, such as when Wolverine jumped on him when he came to Earth with the Annihilators.

If there are characters on this wiki who fall into the second group but are currently scaling to the first group, I think they should be changed. I don't think characters in the first group should be changed, rather just make a standard note explaining why slower characters shouldn't speed scale to them.

 

[Antvasima]

Probably, yes. Although if Thor has legitimate speed feats on a MFTL+ level that are not simply flight-related, it obviously complicates the issue, but at the very least we might have to take a broader look at if all the characters scaled to him should have this be treated as outliers, constant outliers in the case of the Hulk, but nevertheless, we need to at least try to make our profiles make better sense.

 

[SuperAPM]

If Thor and Surfer have actual quantifiable combat and reaction speed feats within the MFTL+ range then this really is a mute point. But of all the speed feats I've seen, aside from being travel feats, they always involve the two using their hammer and board respectively to cover these vast distances, both of which are completely seperate from their own physical bodies, and the only mention of reaction feats is them "reacting" whilst travelling these distances, if that even is the case, which sounds completely unquantifiable given that this may just be the result of time dilation and may not be applicable to them whilst they're stationary or what not.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

oh acrually it had sevrn lol

Depenging on how we treat flying free from the pull of a black hole there are three travel feats (Gorr traversing the universe, thor crossing swveral lightyears instantly, old thor flying from earth to the edge of the universe and back in minutes), two reaction/combat speed feats (thor fighting the black leviathan which crossed several lightyears in seconds and thor reacting to gorr throwing chunks of moon that crossed lightyears in seconds), and two black hole feats (old thor breaking free from a black hole and gorr fighting a godd who regularlt escaped black holes)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Thor can throw/catch his hammer so/when it travels at MFTL+ speeds, and the Surfer can easily navigate through meteorite swarms, although Mjolnir is magical, and we don't know if the Surfer greatly slows down when he is approaching solid objects.

 

[The_Impress]

You know, if people actually give scans that can be put on the profiles to properly scale instead of describing them repeatedly, it'll make things far more efficient, wouldn't it?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not have the time. Sorry. Although what I just described has happened rather frequently.

I would appreciate if other people here can help out with finding speed calculations for them, both here and in the Narutoforums.

 

[The_Impress]

@Ant It wasn't directed at you specifically, sorry if it came across as such. It was meant as a more general statement to those contributing to the thread, given this is the third time I've asked for scans for said MFTL+ feats.

@Weekly The MFTL+ feats you mention, do you recall what issue of Thor: God of Thunder they're in? I'd rather not prefer reading 25 issues of that series looking for feats

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I can give the scans of them all when i get home from work

 

[The_Impress]

@Weekly That'll be greatly appreciated, thank you

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

AKM and MrKing hit the nail on the head.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that MrKingOfNegativity has commented here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Matt here, not everyone who's Thor's level is strength is anywhere near on par with his speed for sure. It's also important to note that characters such as Thor, Silver Surfer, Sentry, ect are all heavily known to hold back in much of their encounters. Plenty of people have had questioned Superman having comparable combat speeds to his flight speed for similar reasons, but he has numerous combat speed feats that are Massively FTL+ and is comparable to the likes of Green Lantern and Wonder Woman; both of whom have reacted to things that "Flew from the edge of the universe".

As for Hulk, technically his speed is variable. Obviously, his movement speed is no better than Massively Hypersonic, and his combat speed varies greatly. Hulk has been shown to tag Massively FTL+ characters, but he requires significant about of seriousness in order to do so. And like Thor, he also has a tendency to hold back severely; that's how Spider-Man is able to outpace him. But as Matt said, Hercules and other characters are way slower than Thor and wouldn't quite scale.

 

[SuperAPM]

So..... What's happening here?

 

[Stefano4444]

If Thor and Surfer have actual quantifiable combat and reaction speed feats within the MFTL+ range then this really is a mute point. But of all the speed feats I've seen, aside from being travel feats, they always involve the two using their hammer and board respectively to cover these vast distances, both of which are completely seperate from their own physical bodies, and the only mention of reaction feats is them "reacting" whilst travelling these distances, if that even is the case, which sounds completely unquantifiable given that this may just be the result of time dilation and may not be applicable to them whilst they're stationary or what not.

I must disagree, there had be instances where Thor was able to both react and keep up to a flying Mjolnir, so Thor's combat speed and reactions should scale to Mjolnir's flying speed.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/69579/1271652-1260527_thorsuperspeed08144_super.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/13/136540/3060205-7057124105-ThorS.jpg

The same magical hammer which could reach the farthest reaches of the Milky Way's galaxy before returning to Earth in just 1 minute.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111291753/5396392-5019359473-28871.jpg

Speaking about Silver Surfer, considering that he was able to react and keep up with a clone of himself while both of them were fighting with their boards, i think its fair to assume that SS's speed scale to board's flying speed too.

http://i.imgur.com/9iEkeBn.jpg

And we are talking about the same guy who could travel half the Milky Way's galaxy in mere seconds, while searching each solar system to find an alternative food source for Galactus, this feat cannot be considered simply as flying speed or travel speed only.

http://i.imgur.com/Wl7489L.jpg

 

[SuperAPM]

I don't think the Thor examples are that valid, not when he has such a close psychic bond with Mjolnir and would therefore have a much easier time perceiving her movement regardless of speed. There's also no indication what speed she was moving at.

However, the scan showing him landing a punch in the span of a few microseconds is a great example of combat speed, and is the kind quantifiable feats we need.

The silver surfer example, some of the same issues again, no indication of speed as far as I can tell (perhaps I didn't read it properly, apologies as I'm currently mobile) but it still doesn't indicate whether or not surfer is capable of these kinds of reaction speeds whilst at a stand still or whether this is just a simple result of time dilation.

More examples like the Thor microseconds feat would be most reliable for scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

SuperAPM makes sense.

 

[Stefano4444]

I don't think the Thor examples are that valid, not when he has such a close psychic bond with Mjolnir and would therefore have a much easier time perceiving her movement regardless of speed. There's also no indication what speed she was moving at.

Just because he would be capable to perceiving its movement, it doesn't mean he would be able to react to it no matter at what speed.

A normal guy can perceiving the movement of a cheetah running at full speed, but there is no way he would be able to keep up with the cheetah.

 

[SuperAPM]

Yes it would; being able to perceive something as strongly as Thor does Mjolnir would mean he'd be able act and react to it long before it reaches him. It's like spider sense, more prediction than pure reaction

 

[Stefano4444]

Yes it would; being able to perceive something as strongly as Thor does Mjolnir would mean he'd be able act and react to it long before it reaches him. It's like spider sense, more prediction than pure Reaction

Weak comparation, the Spider-Man had be speedblitzed before or he has be hit by other characters, which show that Spider-Sense means very little if Spider-Man isn't fast enough to dodge incoming attacks.

Which is why he is listed to possess Massively Hypersonic+ via dodging Electro's lightning bolts, despire the fact that he has the Spider-Sense.

 

[The_Impress]

To be fair, the second feat listed for Thor does indeed have him reacting to Mjolnir in time. However, does the Mjolnir always travel Massively FTL+ speeds? That is a somewhat big assumption to make.

It isn't consistent as Electro's lightning, where we know lighting will always travel a consistent speed

Also, thank you for actually getting scans for scaling.

 

[SuperAPM]

Spider sense was just an example, I understand it's inconsistencies. The point is that it is unreliable to scale Thor's reaction speed to Mjolnir when he has such a strong psychic bond with it; again it'd be extremely easy for him to act and react long before the hammer reaches him with that much of a heads start

Zark2099

Evidently not, the first scan implies that Mjolnirs trajectory is in slow motion in the span of a few microseconds, given that Thor manages to land a punch in that time frame before Mjolnir reaches him.

 

[The_Impress]

Well, at least we have an MFTL+ combat feat for Thor, which should be added to his profile. So his status as an MFTL+ is secure

 

[SuperAPM]

I was about to say, what speed is required to land a punch in the span of a few microseconds?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Throwing a punch in a few microseconds is not a MFTL+ feat. Even if he moved one meter it would only be mach 970. If anything it implies Mjolnir is not going fast in that scene, since if we go by the galaxy scan, Mjolnir can move over 3 million kilometers in that time span.

 

[The_Impress]

Now then, to move on to other characters, are there any Sub-Relativistic and MFTL+ combat feats for Rogue (Marvel Comics) and Human Torch? Because both are candidates to be downgraded to MHS+ otherwise

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thor does very consistently react to his Mjolnir; which him throwing his Mjolnir is also definitely and attack speed feat. Also, isn't Thor technically empowered by his Mjolnir? This would imply that all categories of speed would inherently be comparable to Mjolnir's attack speed. Silver Surfer also very consistently flies and Massively FTL+ speeds while reacting to other characters such as Galactus.

 

[SuperAPM]

I thought as much. Tho at least we have a quantifiable combat speed feat to scale off of as a base.

 

[The_Impress]

Throwing a punch in a few microseconds is not a MFTL+ feat. Even if he moved one meter it would only be mach 970. If anything it implies Mjolnir is not going fast in that scene, since if we go by the galaxy scan, Mjolnir can move over 3 million kilometers in that time span.

Which is Massively Hypersonic

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not against MFTL+ Thor by this site's scaling, just that the scans given before would not back that speed rating.

Also, isn't Thor technically empowered by his Mjolnir?

Only when he was stuck in his human form. Otherwise the hammer just gives someone the power of Thor.

 

[The_Impress]

Saying Thor should be MFTL because the hammer is MFTL is saying Juggernaut should be 2-C because Cyttorak is 2-C. I don't think Mjolnir is consistently flying at MFTL+ speeds without ever slowing down, unless it is explicitly stated as such.

Implications < Showings. Saitama isn't always one-shotting every character he fights against despite what the title "One Punch Man" may imply

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not his only justification though; I recall there was an actual speed feat in which he threw someone outside the solar system, and then outpaced the launch to catch the said foe. Also, Cyttorak isn't the best example. That's a God bestowing a fraction of his power to Juggernaut where as Thor does harness the full power of Mjolnir. He does not harness the full power of Odin similar to how Juggernaut does not harness the full power of Cyttorak.

Thor also keeps up with and reacts to Silver Surfer regularly, and Thor and Beta Ray Bill have also consistently sparred while flying and reacting at Massively FTL+ speeds. Performing flexible U-Turns while maintaining Massively FTL+ speeds also inherently requires reactions on that level. Green Lantern performing U-Turns left and right with a Massively FTL+ car requires him turning the wheel at similar speeds.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There's also all the feats that i listed

 

[The_Impress]

So if he is Massively FTL+, and you have proof of such, can you provide a single goddamn scan so it can be put on the profile?

We're stuck discussing this one character because people never bothered to produce a single scan for his combat speed, and it's becoming almost impossible for me to even go through the problems with any other character since people are being so difficult

 

[The_Impress]

At this point I'm not even arguing for a downgrade, I'm asking for a single supporting feat which isn't so convoluted, so it can be put on the profile for proper scaling

 

[Antvasima]

Well, somebody probably needs to either find some calculations or respect threads in order to get something to link to.

 

[The_Impress]

Weekly said they'll be providing some scans supporting it when they get the time

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Here is one that i put on thor's profile a ffew days ago, i can post more when i get home