Marvel Speed Downgrades

[The_Impress]

Hi, so I recognize this may have been dealt with in the past, but is still bothering me as of late, and has lead to some pretty controversial stats to say the least, but why do we scale reaction speed to flight speed in Marvel Comics?

I mean, it just seems absurd, Han Solo doesn't have Massively FTL+ reactions for controlling the ships while they go for hyperdrive, hell even for a real world example, when you run as fast as you can, you never respond to every single hazard in your way.

And this is a major problem, as currently, many characters like Rogue (Marvel Comics) are being listed with near Speed of Light feats, despite characters like Spider-Man and Quicksilver keeping up with and even exceeding them, as well as resulting in severe contractions for characters' stats like Juggernaut (Marvel Comics).

So what I propose is that unless the flight requires many complex turns and maneuvering, it shouldn't ever be used to scale reaction speeds to, and for characters being scaled with such, I request the wiki members to assist in collecting feats and calculating them for, hopefully, more reliable statistics

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with this.

However, you should ask the following members to comment here:

Sera EX, Matthew Schroeder, Kepekley23, Sandman31, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omego, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, LephyrTheRevanchist.

 

[The_Impress]

Already on it. Though can't get that Zark guy here for some reason

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry. I copy-pasted.

 

[The_Impress]

I've contacted everyone active who has been listed, but that has taken abit more time than I anticipated, so I may not be staying at the given moment

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just gonna say that I recently read Thor: God of Thunder and that comic alone has six mftl+ feats for thor

 

[The_Impress]

@WeeklyBattles

Hmm, are they combat and reaction feats, or travel speed?

And if they are combat feats, care to provide scans for 'em?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

oh acrually it had sevrn lol

Depenging on how we treat flying free from the pull of a black hole there are three travel feats (Gorr traversing the universe, thor crossing swveral lightyears instantly, old thor flying from earth to the edge of the universe and back in minutes), two reaction/combat speed feats (thor fighting the black leviathan which crossed several lightyears in seconds and thor reacting to gorr throwing chunks of moon that crossed lightyears in seconds), and two black hole feats (old thor breaking free from a black hole and gorr fighting a godd who regularlt escaped black holes)

 

[The_Impress]

Welp... lemme just remove the mention of Thor from the OP and try again...

Also, if those examples exist, they should at the very least be listed on his profile, and not just Travel Speed feats.

If we list four different types of speeds in our Speed description itself, one of the most important of the speeds, Reaction/Combat, should have a passing mention at the absolute least.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Given some time I can probably find supporting feats for everyone in the opponent

I agree that they should be listed though, the descriptions are currently severely lacking

Yes, yes it should

 

[The_Impress]

Well, the secondary point of this CRT is to find non-flight speed related feats for the characters, so if one can in fact, find supporting feats for even the current ratings, I'll be more than satisfied.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I can certainly agree to this. If a character isn't shown manuvering at high speeds, then travel feats shouldn't count towards their combat reactions. There's a reason why when I redid Vulca's profile I listed his combat speed differently then his travel.

 

[SuperAPM]

When it comes to guys like Thor and Surfer, its not even a matter of travel vs combat speed. The means they use to travel such vast distances are completely seperate from their own physical bodies, so it should be obvious that their bodies aren't capable of reaching such insane speeds physically. At least with Gladiator or Sentry you could argue for since they're using their own bodies to travel such distances (tho I don't actually know what their best speed feats are) but even then they only do so telekinetically, which is a process of the mind rather than the body.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Thor and Surfer have actual reaction and combat feats in the mftl+ range though

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I can agree with this stuff.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay so a few things to note reading the op again:

>And this is a major problem, as currently, many characters like Rogue (Marvel Comics) are being listed with near Speed of Light feats, despite characters like Spider-Man and Quicksilver keeping up with and even exceeding them

Quicksilver has FTL speed so that point is kind of moot, and iirc there was going to be a revision to upgrade Spider Man to Relativistic soon

>as well as resulting in severe contractions for characters' stats like Juggernaut (Marvel Comics).

Correct me if im wrong here because im not super familiar with Juggernaut but dont his stats vary over the course of the comics due to him having varying levels from his varying connection to Cyttorak?

>Iron Man (Marvel Comics), whose "MFTL+" combat feat has him slightly moving his arm during an obscure panel describing his suit-up scene.

Tony doesnt have any MFTL+ Combat speed feats listed, only a travel feat that has nothing to do with a suiting up scene. Tony does have other MFTL+ feats though, such as impressing Sentry with his speed and outmaneuvering Gladiator

 

[KLOL506]

Weekly makes sense, and Matt has already exhausted this matter to death. I'm inclined to agree with them.

 

[Antvasima]

The main problem is that characters such as Spider-Man are usually treated as slightly swifter than Hulk/Thor level powerhouses, whereas characters such as Quicksilver are usually treated as much swifter, and yet we rate the powerhouses as having much superior combat speeds based mainly on travel feats.

 

[KLOL506]

Probably inconsistencies, and like Weekly states, Spidey might be upgraded to Relativistic soon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@KLOL I just remember talk of it happening i dont know if its still happening

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also Rogue's speed might be a bit inaccurate, iirc she was using Binary's powers when she did the sub-rel feat

 

[Antvasima]

There is a massive difference between Relativistic and far into MFTL+.

 

[The_Impress]

Okay so a few things to note reading the op again:
>And this is a major problem, as currently, many characters like Rogue (Marvel Comics) are being listed with near Speed of Light feats, despite characters like Spider-Man and Quicksilver keeping up with and even exceeding them

Quicksilver has FTL speed so that point is kind of moot, and iirc there was going to be a revision to upgrade Spider Man to Relativistic soon

If a 10-B consistently damages a 4-B physically, that doesn't make him 5-A. It doesn't matter whether Spider-Man amd Quicksilver are near their tier, they're still being potrayed 1000x slower than Thor, Hulk, and Thanos, which is just... insanely inaccurate

>as well as resulting in severe contractions for characters' stats like Juggernaut (Marvel Comics).

Correct me if im wrong here because im not super familiar with Juggernaut but dont his stats vary over the course of the comics due to him having varying levels from his varying connection to Cyttorak?

No, that isn't the case, as far as I'm concerned. Even the profile lists the problem as "He can tag the Hulk and Thor, but can also be speed blitz by Spider-Man and Quicksilver" he literally cannot be rated due to how insane our speed scaling is.

>Iron Man (Marvel Comics), whose "MFTL+" combat feat has him slightly moving his arm during an obscure panel describing his suit-up scene.

Tony doesnt have any MFTL+ Combat speed feats listed, only a travel feat that has nothing to do with a suiting up scene. Tony does have other MFTL+ feats though, such as impressing Sentry with his speed and outmaneuvering Gladiator

The feat I mentioned is listed in his second or thrid key. I don't recall and am frankly abit too busy to check

 

[The_Impress]

See, what isn't being realized is, our current system for ranking Marvel characters is so broken and crazy, we cannot even scale people anymore without choosing to ignore certain feats. So cureently, because of even the consistently slow characters being listed as MFTL+, either every single character in the verse is MFTL+, or suprise suprise, the feats we use for reference are wrong.

Most don't realize that MFTL+ feats are some of their best feats, and if we were to look at a comic character's best feat, Batman would be Tier 2 for kicking Spectre's ass or something, and Spider-Man would be a tier 0 because TOAA was scared he might get hurt by Peter. It's better to look for logically consistent feats rather than their peak feats

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Azrk And if we were to look at there worst feats the verse as a whole would cap at tier 8 from Oblivion being beaten by Iceman, with characters like Thanos being arrested by humans and thor being knocked out by a bullet

 

[The_Impress]

@Weekly So there is a middle ground which is treated as being far more consistent by writers. I'm not saying to just jump from one extreme to another, just that current ratings seem too contradictory to scale

You're seemingly assuming the opposite of what I imply, all I'm saying is MFTL+ feats by some characters seem... quite wrong to say the least

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes and that is what we're trying to work with here. What im trying to say is that by your own logic characters like Spider Man for example would have feats of being able to keep up with characters far above his paygrade be treated as his 'high feats' where his consistent feats are actually much lower.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

>If a 10-B consistently damages a 4-B physically, that doesn't make him 5-A. It doesn't matter whether Spider-Man amd Quicksilver are near their tier, they're still being potrayed 1000x slower than Thor, Hulk, and Thanos, which is just... insanely inaccurate

I was addressing your concern as to Rogue being listed above Spider-Man and Quicksilver in speed, though in Quicksilver's case he may need two keys for pre and post High Evolutionary enhancement. Though just out of curiosity would you happen to have scans of Quicksilver or Spider-Man outspeeding guys like Thor?

>No, that isn't the case, as far as I'm concerned. Even the profile lists the problem as "He can tag the Hulk and Thor, but can also be speed blitz by Spider-Man and Quicksilver" he literally cannot be rated due to how insane our speed scaling is.

From everything ive read and been told that is the case actually but i digress, i can look into juggernaut once im done with the characters im currently working on as his profile in general is severely lacking.

>The feat I mentioned is listed in his second or thrid key. I don't recall and am frankly abit too busy to check

This is the feat on his profile, is is the the travel speed of his warp drive in the armor. The arm moving feat is a different feat entirely.

 

[The_Impress]

I'm sorry, so you can tell me straight-faced that Hulk is a thousand times faster than Quicksilver, and a million times more than Spider-Man?

What we're sacrificing for adhering to common sense, consistent hierarchy, official scalings and hell, even consistency for the long run is reconsidering some characters statistics and what we assume as their consisten tfeats. Which is an absolute bargain in my opinion.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

In combat speed yes because he has consistent feats to back it up, whereas both spider-man and quicksilver are listed as faster than him in general movement speed

I believe a lot of the issues you bring up have more to do with the pages themselves not having proper listings for what is travel speed and what is reaction/combat speed, and i agree that that needs to be fixed

 

[The_Impress]

I was addressing your concern as to Rogue being listed above Spider-Man and Quicksilver in speed, though in Quicksilver's case he may need two keys for pre and post High Evolutionary enhancement. Though just out of curiosity would you happen to have scans of Quicksilver or Spider-Man outspeeding guys like Thor?

Speed blitzing Thor

Redirecting Mjolnir

Speed-blitzing the Hulk

Speed blitzing Hercules Only hit him because spidey was distracted by a previous hit

Faster than She Hulk

Faster than Human Torch

Faster than Iron Ma

There were more examples listed, but frankly, I'm slightly not in the mind to go out for a scan hunt

Honestly, it seems like even if Spider-Man gets hit by these characters, it's due to prediction or sheer dumb luck, and not having anything to do with their speed.

 

[The_Impress]

In combat speed yes because he has consistent feats to back it up, whereas both spider-man and quicksilver are listed as faster than him in general movement speed
I believe a lot of the issues you bring up have more to do with the pages themselves not having proper listings for what is travel speed and what is reaction/combat speed, and i agree that that needs to be fixed

Spider-Man and Quicksilver have consistent feats against Hulk to back up them being faster, alongside basic common sense.

Those are an issue, yes, but even then, the feats being used contradicting scalings for other characters is problematic too

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The problem is that Hulk and all have consistently been on par witg MFTL+ characters.

You're suggesting either a massive downgrade for lots of people or a massive upgrade from characters like Spidey almost always being portrayed as faster.

The iasue is that the comics aren't consistent at all and even using their feata that are "in the middle, it would still be hard to find consistency with who can outperform who.

 

[The_Impress]

@Foxthefox

Well, those MFTL+ characters themselves have weird, outlierish, and sometimes, even unscaleable MFTL+ feats. So yes, I'm asking for a downgrade. That's the point of the thread, as the title says.

Also, it's not like revisions such as this haven't been done before, just look at the last major Marvel Revision

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay the first two scans you posted are kinda iffy, thats Eric Masterson Thor and Donald Blake Thor who as far as im aware have feats far, far below actual Thor

 

[The_Impress]

So the characters who straight up directly scale from Thor and his rogues' gallery aren't scaling MFTL+ now? Tier I can buy, but I'll definitely not buy that. Please explain to me how the character's own rogue's gallery is speed blitzing him

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The scan of Hercules is fine as Spider Man is already faster than Hercules on his profile

You posted the hercules scan twice in place of red she hulk

Not sure where the scan with human torch implies peter is faster

the scan of him fighting Iron Man is from an alternate universe and thus unscalable to Earth 616 Spider-Man

 

[The_Impress]

The scan of Hercules is fine as Spider Man is already faster than Hercules on his profile
You posted the hercules scan twice in place of red she hulk

Not sure where the scan with human torch implies peter is faster

the scan of him fighting Iron Man is from an alternate universe and thus unscalable to Earth 616 Spider-Man

So, hercules, the guy who scales in AP to Thor, isn't scaling speed with him. Great stats


Fixed.


He outran and dodged every single attack from him. What else is need to prove he's faster?


Oh, sorry. However, what about the fights in both the Civil Wars, and even the 2015 Dan Slott run? Alongside that, there were multiple instances of Peter beating the shit out of Iron Man, but I didn't list 'em in case of AP outliers.

 

[The_Impress]

Look, we can keep finding loopholes with whatever I'm saying, but at the end of the day, I can look upto 50 scans of Spider-Man blitzing a so-called MFTL+ but not one with said MFTL+ blitzing Spider-Man

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah i honestly dont get that part either lol

She-Hulk is actually Massively Hypersonic as well so that is consistent

Later in the comic Torch actually does manage to tag spidey and bring him to the ground, though that would put them on an equal level which would put Torch's combat speed at Peter's level as his current speed feat is travel speed

I mean unless he built a suit that's overwhelmingly faster than what's listed on his profile that would at best be a sub-relativistic+ feat