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Marvel Speed Downgrades

Um... why is every character scaling in AP to an MFTL+ to scaling as such in speed? Are we cherry picking on who the rules apply and who do not?

Well, that's one downgrade done already i reckon.

MFTL+ Daredevil, anyone? And don't let it be that suddenly, modern armors are downgrades in speed.
 
But Iron Man only has Sub-Relativistic+ movement and combat speed with MFTL+ flight speed.
 
I agree with Zark. Marvel as a whole clearly intends to treat flight speed and combat speed as extremely separate issues, and we shouldn't use the greatest outliers either.

I know that it is hard to see characters that you really like downgraded to Spider-Man levels in terms of speed, but we have to strive for accuracy. That is the entire intended point of this wiki.

Meaning, let's please try to get this properly evaluated and applied.
 
I suppose that seems fine, but we preferably need more input from knowledgeable members.
 
Weekly was seemingly in agreement for these characters being downgraded, and most (excluding KLOL) have already commented on the matter regarding said downgrades. But I suppose its no harm waiting for a proper answer
 
Currently we need people to agree with the downgrades for the characters listed by me in the prior comment
 
This is a very serious change. We need staff input.

Feel free to remind the members that I last listed above, and tell them that I would appreciate their help.
 
Well... the problem is the staff members I've contacted haven't arrived on the thread anyhow.

I was thinking whether it'd be possible to highlight the thread, given it is an important revision of the most expansive and controversial verse in the wiki
 
It is probably best if we wait a few days for responses before we take such a drastic measure.

Again, you can tell the staff that I sent you, and briefly explain what it is about on their message walls.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I am against downgrading speed.
Iron Man's feat he mentioned is MHS and comparing Thor to the Millennium Falcon is a ridiculous fallacy.
Click to expand...


Problem occurs when every profile contradicts itself in scaling, with directly scaleable characters like Hercules, Wonder Man and She-Hulk being MHS to their MFTL+, and having to make, like 50 different excuses to explain why Spider-Man blitzes these characters every time.

Why is it a ridiculous fallacy again? Both are travelling in a straight line using their top speed
 
I agree that we need to solve these scaling problems at some point in some manner. Sera and Kepekley were going to take a look at it, but Kep has gone missing.
 
Hercules, Wonder Man and She-Hulk simply don't scale to MFTL+ because it's inconsistent for them. But people like Thor have a fukton of MFTL+ feats so he can scale. Comicbooks aren't scaled endlessly like other verses.

And let' see... The Millennium Falcon is a ship that can only move faster-than-light by activating a special mode (It doesn't reach it through its own speed), required moving through hyperspace so it's not even normally moving FTL, and also can only go in a straight line.

Meanwhile Thor... Is a sentient guy who just goes at the speed of light and beyond under his own power. Hyperspace is barely ever mentioned in Marvel and more often than not people are just shown to move at FTL speeds.
 
I'm also somewhat annoyed at the burden of proof being consistently on me. There are clear contradictions in the pages themselves regarding this, and yet we're supposedly fine with high-balled stats that are genuinely breaking our scaling. At this point, we're even ignoring direct scaling, and cherry-picking statistics, with all the major 4-Bs having MFTL+ speeds, but characters who are directly comparable to and who have consistently fought them having MHS speeds. Anyhow, my battery's almost dead, so I won't be able to argue any further for a while. I'll appreciate if anyone who agrees may be able to do that for my behalf
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Hercules, Wonder Man and She-Hulk simply don't scale to MFTL+ because it's inconsistent for them. But people like Thor have a fukton of MFTL+ feats so he can scale. Comicbooks aren't scaled endlessly like other verses.
Click to expand...
There are a fuckton of feats supporting a 9-C Spider-Man and Daredevil too, doesn't mean we're downgrading him. Spider-Man and Daredevil are consistently speed blitzing these characters, so it is genuinely common sense that they're faster in combat speed than them. Common sense and consistent scaling is also a part of Powerscaling in Marvel

And let' see... The Millennium Falcon is a ship that can only move faster-than-light by activating a special mode (It doesn't reach it through its own speed), required moving through hyperspace so it's not even normally moving FTL, and also can only go in a straight line.

Meanwhile Thor... Is a sentient guy who just goes at the speed of light and beyond under his own power. Hyperspace is barely ever mentioned in Marvel and more often than not people are just shown to move at FTL speeds.

And that's travel speed. We're talking about combat speed, which doesn't make sense to scale to flight speed. That's the whole point.
 
@Zark

For what it is worth, I agree with you, but I am far too overworked to argue extensively about this.

@AKM

Thank you for the information. It is good that nothing bad seems to have happened to him.
 
@Zark

What even is the point of your argument. Comicbook Downgrades always involve around cherry-picking feats on a low-end scale, only difference being that comicbook characters have been around for so long that they tend to have more of those feats than entire other series have feats in all ends.

Superman has like 40 feats on a "Universal" scale more or less, to use a similar argument, doesn't mean I'll upgrade him since that's just cherry-picking. Thor has a bunch of Universe level stuff as well specially in the Silver Age, but we don't put him there. Solar System level is actually a "Mid-End" rating that uses neither the lowest ends nor the highest ends.
 
For the record, trying to use Star Wars hyperdrive as an argument is a huge non-sequitir. Hyperdrive in Star Wars is explicitly based on calculating a trajectory before going into hyperdrive. In Marvel, the characters themselves are moving at that speed, and if they couldn't react at that speed, they'd crash into planets because they can't calculate paths like ships can. Trying to compare the two is a MASSIVE fallacy, pretty much like Matt said.
 
Zark2099 said:
I'm also somewhat annoyed at the burden of proof being consistently on me. There are clear contradictions in the pages themselves regarding this, and yet we're supposedly fine with high-balled stats that are genuinely breaking our scaling. At this point, we're even ignoring direct scaling, and cherry-picking statistics, with all the major 4-Bs having MFTL+ speeds, but characters who are directly comparable to and who have consistently fought them having MHS speeds. Anyhow, my battery's almost dead, so I won't be able to argue any further for a while. I'll appreciate if anyone who agrees may be able to do that for my behalf
Click to expand...
>High-balled stats

>Superman has dozens of uni feats, There are literal hundreds of MFTL feats in comics, Many way higher feats exist for marvel but we don't use them because of consistency

Are you sure "This wiki wanks Comics" is the hill you want to die on
 
Hercules has 0 FTL feats of his own and is always depicted as slow. He doesn't scale to Thor in speed, only strength. Same for Hulk.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Hercules has 0 FTL feats of his own and is always depicted as slow. He doesn't scale to Thor in speed, only strength. Same for Hulk.
Click to expand...
At some point I need to make a CRT for scaling reactions... But that's neither here nor there.

The point is, DOwngrades here are kind of ridiculous.
 
Problem occurs when every profile contradicts itself in scaling, with directly scaleable characters like Hercules, Wonder Man and She-Hulk being MHS to their MFTL+, and having to make, like 50 different excuses to explain why Spider-Man blitzes these characters every time.

I can show 200 instances where Spider-Man was defeated and blitzed by normal thugs and guns. Guess we will have to downgrade him too.
 
I was sort of half-joking on that one.

In all seriousness, we should look for statistics based off the consistency of the character's ow feats, instead of dismissing it by using a "lesser character" (That has not real connection to the former's lore much less power-scaling) as a method to downgrade them.
 
Well, I have read thousands of Marvel comicbooks, and my impression is that considerably more often than not, the powerhouses are treated as comparable to or inferior to Spider-Man in speed, and as much slower than Quicksilver.

Similarly to how we disregard the Universe level and Wall level feats, we might have to disregard the greatest speed feats as outliers as well.

At the very least we need to do something about the sheer inconsistencies in our profiles, so Hulk and similar characters do not scale to Thor and the Sentry in speed anymore, with footnotes that clarify that this is Plot-Induced Stupidity.

I would also appreciate if people make an effort to try to be polite and respectful to Zark2099. He is only trying to help out to make our profiles more reliable.
 
Immeasurable speed is obviously ridiculous, but scaling so many characters to far into MFTL+ also seems very unreliable, as they are generally shown as comparable to Spider-Man and much slower than Quicksilver. Our current scaling system genuinely doesn't make any sense in that regard.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Zark
What even is the point of your argument. Comicbook Downgrades always involve around cherry-picking feats on a low-end scale, only difference being that comicbook characters have been around for so long that they tend to have more of those feats than entire other series have feats in all ends.
Click to expand...
So cherry picking them with MFTL+ feats for their current level's different somehow? It's cherry picking nonetheless.

Superman has like 40 feats on a "Universal" scale more or less said:
Are you sure "This wiki wanks Comics" is the hill you want to die on
Click to expand...
So you're this wiki's grave digger, I assuming?

Hercules has 0 FTL feats of his own and is always depicted as slow. He doesn't scale to Thor in speed, only strength. Same for Hulk.
Yet he can consistently fight toe to toe with MFTL+ characters. If you're going to be illogical, at the very least be illogical consistently. Even forgetting that they aren't supposed to be MFTL+, characters that are consistently reacting to another don't scale somehow.

Also, Hulk does have MFTL+ reactions

I'm honestly not understanding half the point of these arguments, making me feel either I'm not clear or people are purposely glossing over what I write

  • I'm talking about downgrading, or at the least listing the feats for in the profile itself, the Massively FTL+ Combat and Reaction speed Thor and gang are getting despite not a single such feat being listed for them in the profile.
  • Second point regards the honestly, questionable and nonsensical scaling and logic that is going behind the profiles, i.e. Characters can scale to another another except when they're not, characters consistently blitzing one another when they clearly can't, and honestly, even poorly researched profiles in the mix.
  • If you're arguing over characters actually being MFTL+ in reactions and combat, and you actually for the love of god provide a single goddamn scan for it instead of sending me on a hunt for them?
  • Can we please stop nitpicking a single goddamn comparison in the OP? The point of it was if you're in a straight path, you necessarily never have enough reaction speed to respond to everything your way i.e. reaction speed shouldn't scale to flight speed. If you're still doubtful on that, please, drive your car 200 kmph on a mountain road and tell me how that went for you.
 
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