Marvel Magic limitation

[Entity]

Thor destroys a galaxy->Also Thor fights daredevil->Daredevil=galaxy, same logic

Thor, Hulk and others who are known to hold back or be as strong as they need when they want to be are no good exemple, and probably shouldn't be used for scaling chains, maybe there are better exemples

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Thor, Hulk and others who are known to hold back or be as strong as they need when they want to be are no good exemple, and probably shouldn't be used for scaling chains, maybe there are better exemples

Irrelevant the point is about PIS and outliers do you rather talk about Spider-man vs firelord?

 

[Entity]

Irrelevant the point is about PIS and outliers do you rather talk about Spider-man vs firelord?

Better, yes, but the thing with magic is that it applies almost every time a spell is used and since Hulk has become a magical being every time he or some other gamma being punches someone apparently, it might be a bit more big of a problem than those fights

 

[Hypertornado099]

Entity is right, the stuff I brought up can't be argued as PIS in the same way "Daredevil tanks Thor's attacks" can. Its not the same at all, Daredevil has reasons for not being Thor's tier due to his own feats and limitations (and Thor's scaling)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Entity is right, the stuff I brought up can't be argued as PIS in the same way "Daredevil tanks Thor's attacks" can. Its not the same at all, Daredevil has reasons for not being Thor's tier due to his own feats and limitations (and Thor's scaling)

So... None of the statements and scans in the marvel magic page count because you said so? Got it

 

[Entity]

So... None of the statements and scans in the marvel magic page count because you said so? Got it

No, it just needs to be defined how those abilities work in combat, because clearly Hulk or any other gamma mutates do not eliminate their opponents conceptually, despite having conceptual manipulation

 

[Hypertornado099]

So... None of the statements and scans in the marvel magic page count because you said so? Got it

This is a strawman- I'm not implying that the scans in that thread don't count at all. As mentioned at the very beginning of the thread

The purpose of this thread isn’t to downgrade the potency of magic to below 1-A levels, it also isn’t gonna be removing much hax. Instead, its proposing that the Durability Negation hax of magic (Plot Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Information Type 2, Concept and Law Manipulation) can still be affected by conventional durability and that its possible to endure, tank or withstand magic without even having hax or magic resistance, depending on the spell of course.

I'm not even disagreeing with the scans in the Marvel magic thread. My argument isn't that the scans justifying the hax such as Plot and Conceptual Manipulation are invalid, its just adding a clarification that its possible to endure magic spells with normal durability, depending on the potency. So to summarize, its adding more stuff to the page rather than removing the hax

So... None of the statements and scans in the marvel magic page count because you said so? Got it

This comment is stonewalling too. You said the same thing with more words here, I responded by saying that it was circular, you then brought up a new argument that its PIS, someone responded and now you've backtracked to the same argument that "I'm not counting the scans in the Magic page"

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This is a strawman- I'm not implying that the scans in that thread don't count at all. As mentioned at the very beginning of the thread


I'm not even disagreeing with the scans in the Marvel magic thread. My argument isn't that the scans justifying the hax such as Plot and Conceptual Manipulation are invalid, its just adding a clarification that its possible to endure magic spells with normal durability, depending on the potency. So to summarize, its adding more stuff to the page rather than removing the hax

You are adding a possible limitation based on assumption since you have no concrete evidence. And there is no such thing as resisting through normal durability considering that goes against the whole point of the magic itself and all the concrete evidence showing it can surpass resistance. Your evidence was better used as argument for adding resistance to magic than to limit magic itself.

This comment is stonewalling too. You said the same thing with more words here, I responded by saying that it was circular, you then brought up a new argument that its PIS, someone responded and now you've backtracked to the same argument that "I'm not counting the scans in the Magic page"

I Said you are ignoring the very nature of magic over some inconsistent scans made by different authors that decided to ignore the lore of magic for a story with Characters that don't deal with magic. Stories that clearly many times define magic just like it is on the page are more relevant and important.

No, it just needs to be defined how those abilities work in combat, because clearly Hulk or any other gamma mutates do not eliminate their opponents conceptually, despite having conceptual manipulation

Does it say on Hulk's profile that he eliminates his enemies on a conceptual level?

 

[AsterReal]

So: "resist magic in marvel" = resist concept, plot and information hax at level 1-A. If that doesn't seem logical to me.

I would believe it if it was some character with supreme sorcerer level or similar. But I doubt that a sorcerer who barely knows how to fire magical energy would have all that resistance by default. I agree with the thread in pointing out that magic can be resisted with conventional durability depending on the spell being used.

 

[Excellence616]

No, it just needs to be defined how those abilities work in combat, because clearly Hulk or any other gamma mutates do not eliminate their opponents conceptually, despite having conceptual manipulation

This is the issue. The Gamma Magic doesn't give Gamma mutates a win. They just have the resistance to Plot and Concept hax and if their opponents is energy absorber, it would be bad for them.

While as for Hulk, his Gamma Magic doesn't take effect unless when he is at high levels of rage i.e when he is Low 1-C and 1-A. At this level, Hulk is clear not holding back that much or at all and even at that, he doesn't eliminate his opponent conceptually rather he affects them conceptually.

 

[Hypertornado099]

And there is no such thing as resisting through normal durability considering that goes against the whole point of the magic itself and all the concrete evidence showing it can surpass resistance.

I did actually agree that magic can surpass conventional resistances and durability to some extent, I'll put the quote below. So yet another strawman argument lol

I am not saying that magic spells do not bypass conventional durability at all. In fact, some of the scans I will be using showcase characters getting their durability or resistance bypassed by magic to a certain degree, such as Iron Man being affected by magical flames due to the fact that it is magic based rather than science based.

Your evidence was better used as argument for adding resistance to magic than to limit magic itself.

I have a whole section proving that characters explicitly not resistant to magic are able to endure magic attacks.

I Said you are ignoring the very nature of magic over some inconsistent scans made by different authors that decided to ignore the lore of magic for a story with Characters that don't deal with magic. Stories that clearly many times define magic just like it is on the page are more relevant and important.

For this argument to work, I would be arguing that my scans and examples are contradictory to the Concept/Plot/Info type 2 justifications, but that isn't the case here. As mentioned in one of the first paragraphs

The purpose of this thread isn’t to downgrade the potency of magic to below 1-A levels, it also isn’t gonna be removing much hax.

The examples I brought up don't "ignore the lore of magic". Its possible for magic to have fundamental hax on that level but still affected by conventional means (to some extent)

 

[Entity]

Does it say on Hulk's profile that he eliminates his enemies on a conceptual level?

Fortunately no, but that is one of the arguments used in his fights or they just go with "1-A CM gg" or "1-A smurf hax gg" without ever explaining how that would translate while fighting, the point is, add a note or something that explains how that ability is used in combat or how it can be, how does it negate durability, how does it help in any way, because when a magic user is fighting he never seem to be conceptually/plot/information destroying/manipulating his opponents, even if they do no resist magic

he affects them conceptually.

In which way does he affect them other than transforming them in gamma mutates and why wouldn't thid be applied to the other gamma mutates?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I did actually agree that magic can surpass conventional resistances and durability to some extent, I'll put the quote below. So yet another strawman argument lol

If your argument is that they can be stopped with convencional durability saying that it can be ignore durability goes against your very argument.

I have a whole section proving that characters explicitly not resistant to magic are able to endure magic attacks.


For this argument to work, I would be arguing that my scans and examples are contradictory to the Concept/Plot/Info type 2 justifications, but that isn't the case here. As mentioned in one of the first paragraphs



The examples I brought up don't "ignore the lore of magic". Its possible for magic to have fundamental hax on that level but still affected by conventional means (to some extent)

So basically you want to limit magic to convencional durability because the users might not always use magic that affects concept/plot ect? Yeah weak arguments

 

[Excellence616]

In which way does he affect them other than transforming them in gamma mutates and why wouldn't thid be applied to the other gamma mutates?

They can't reach the same levels of power and don't give out as much gamma energy as Hulk

Not everything that applies to Hulk should apply to other gamma mutates and vice versa.

 

[Entity]

They can't reach the same levels of power and don't give out as much gamma energy as Hulk

But they all have conceptual manipulation since all of them can use gamma, that's something all of them can do, so why can't they manipulate conceptually their enemy and how would they manipulate their enemy? What would be the result in a fight?

Not everything that applies to Hulk should apply to other gamma mutates and vice versa.

I know

 

[Progrev228]

But they all have conceptual manipulation since all of them can use gamma, that's something all of them can do, so why can't they manipulate conceptually their enemy and how would they manipulate their enemy? What would be the result in a fight?

I don't know, maybe, because they share same metaphysic? And many other characters (including normal humans) able to fight against conceptual beings, travelling into platonic realms including those where they conceptually can't exist?

 

[Entity]

I don't know, maybe, because they share same metaphysic? And many other characters (including normal humans) able to fight against conceptual beings, travelling into platonic realms including those where they conceptually can't exist?

Then everyone in Marvel comics everyone has 1-A hax, easy

 

[Progrev228]

So I'm gonna waste my time to comment every scan in this CRT.

Additionally, some hax based spells like Blackheart's magic mind manipulation can be resisted by those without magic resistance, an example is Daredevil snapping out of Blackheart's mind control through willpower and Spidey's help alone, and not some kind of resistance to narrative/law manipulation or whatever.

Daredevil is Christian and Blackheart is demon, do you know that "Jesus protects us" working in Marvel? Religious symbols literally can used against demons and vampires.

This isn’t the only example of Gladiator taking magic attacks of course, he is able to take attacks from Cyclops with a portion of the Phoenix Force's power. The Phoenix Force is accepted as magic here.

You literally put scan there Gladiator withstand 1 attack from holding back Cyclops and still got beaten.

Gladiator has also fought Thor before, and he is fine after being hit by Mjolnir, and is able to continue fighting (Thor's basic attacks are accepted as magic here, check the innate powers section).

He has withstood 1 attack from a character that holds back 99% of the time.

In a modern comic, Gladiator can take hits from Mjolnir, and although Thor was weakened, he still had a magical aura around his hammer.

He literally loses here and needed Angela's help.

The most blatant example I could think of for Iron Man enduring magic is the Silver Centurion withstanding Master Pandemonium's flames. In that scan, Iron Man states that the flames are burning him due to being supernatural, implying that it is something he doesn’t have a defense to. And yet Iron Man is able to power through it, stating that it would take minutes before the flames reach his flesh. In a later comic, Master Pandemonium implies that he melted Iron Man's armor due to its mystical nature (being demonic), and he proceeds to hurt Human Torch, but Johnny is fine afterwards.

Tony withstand flames several seconds injured and master pandemonium later escapes. What is point with Johnny? That he survived?

In Iron Man #600, he takes the Hood's electricity and isn’t significantly hurt. At the time, the Hood’s source of power was the demon possessing him, so its a form of magic. When Madame Masque gained magic powers that the Model 51 is unable to recognize, the armor is able to withstand prolonged exposure to her magical blasts, and is even able to fight back despite Friday ejecting Tony.

Yeah, Tony survives 1 attack cool. And Tony survives 1 attack and later fight his armor and other character escapes cool.

Luke Cage, a character with no magic resistance, is able to tank the Hood's bullets which have been infused with the Norn Stones' magic. He also withstood the Hood's magical flames. Hawkeye, who doesn’t have superpowers, takes a magic attack from the Hood, and can still get back up and continue firing arrows.

Oh finally 2 really good examples (that can be pis). And again you showed scan there character get defeated.
Yeah cool scans totally proved that magic ain't 1-A.

 

[Entity]

Yeah cool scans totally proved that magic ain't 1-A.

That's not what they're trying to prove with this thread

 

[Progrev228]

That's not what they're trying to prove with this thread

There 2 scans there character tanked magic attack and others there they get beaten or just survived magic attack

 

[Entity]

There 2 scans there character tanked magic attack and others there they get beaten or just survived magic attack

that proves that not all magic attacks are able to conceptually, narratively, informationally damage a character with 1-A strength, that is the point

 

[Progrev228]

that proves that not all magic attacks are able to conceptually, narratively, informationally damage a character with 1-A strength, that is the point

Yeah cool how? That character survives? Can you please also read magic page and Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics. And at least read scans from CRT.

 

[Muteki616]

So everyone in Marvel comics has resistance to plot and conceptual hax?

It would make sense considering every character in marvel and their "name" holds magical value and the archetypes from the 2nd cosmos.

but this thread is to attack to the 1-A attack potency of the magic not the 1-A potency of the hax.
But the 1-A potency of the Hax is how marvel characters stomp their opponents.

which is where i think the mix up is for most people on this thread.

Hulk or any other gamma mutates do not eliminate their opponents conceptually, despite having conceptual manipulation

Inverse, the same wouldn't apply crossverse.

Marvel has countless scans explaining the meta narrative of their heroes that I feel should have BEEN addressed long time ago.

just adding a clarification that its possible to endure magic spells with normal durability, depending on the potency.

i swear i thought this was the common consensus.
like yes, Cosmic Garou should tank the punches from 3-C Childlike Hulk however, the 1-A concept/plot hax "potency" is what does him in.

its possible to endure magic spells with normal durability,

Inverse.

Its possible for magic to have fundamental hax on that level but still affected by conventional means (to some extent)

You don't think this would open a door to various nitpicks? People picking and choosing when this should apply?

that proves that not all magic attacks are able to conceptually, narratively, informationally damage a character with 1-A strength, that is the point

how? If they lose?

 

[Entity]

Alright then, if you think that is the best way to justify why magic attacks do not oneshot everyone, bring the scans where this is explained, with explanation on why characters with explicit no magic resistance can resist info/narrative/conceptual manipulation of magic and let's get it over with, I don't care about the result, I just want it to be explained and justified

 

[Hypertornado099]

If your argument is that they can be stopped with convencional durability saying that it can be ignore durability goes against your very argument.

I said that it ignores durability and resistances to an extent, but is not completely unaffected by conventional durability, which makes sense

 

[Hypertornado099]

You literally put scan there Gladiator withstand 1 attack from holding back Cyclops and still got beaten.

I didn't say he wasn't beaten? I said he can withstand punches from Cyclops using a mystical force

He has withstood 1 attack from a character that holds back 99% of the time.

Thor didn't seem to be holding back here? He was enraged and genuinely wanted to fight. He also took a blow from a corpse of Thor who should have no reason to hold back. He was weakened, but still used magic

He literally loses here and needed Angela's help.

Tony withstand flames several seconds injured and master pandemonium later escapes. What is point with Johnny? That he survived?

Yeah, Tony survives 1 attack cool. And Tony survives 1 attack and later fight his armor and other character escapes cool.

I don't think you understood the CRT. My point wasn't that everyone with magic loses in a fight to people without magic, it was that you can withstand magic attacks with conventional durability, which you're agreeing to

Oh finally 2 really good examples (that can be pis). And again you showed scan there character get defeated.
Yeah cool scans totally proved that magic ain't 1-A.

Why are they PIS? The powers the Hood used here weren't S-tier or anything. And again, the point was to show that they can take attacks, not that they can't be defeated by magic attacks
I also never said magic wasn't 1-A

The purpose of this thread isn’t to downgrade the potency of magic to below 1-A levels, it also isn’t gonna be removing much hax.

I would suggest reading the entire CRT

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I said that it ignores durability and resistances to an extent, but is not completely unaffected by conventional durability, which makes sense

So it's only considered durability negation if it instantly kills or eliminates the target from existence? Not how it works.

 

[Progrev228]

I didn't say he wasn't beaten? I said he can withstand punches from Cyclops using a mystical force


Thor didn't seem to be holding back here? He was enraged and genuinely wanted to fight. He also took a blow from a corpse of Thor who should have no reason to hold back. He was weakened, but still used magic




I don't think you understood the CRT. My point wasn't that everyone with magic loses in a fight to people without magic, it was that you can withstand magic attacks with conventional durability, which you're agreeing to


Why are they PIS? The powers the Hood used here weren't S-tier or anything. And again, the point was to show that they can take attacks, not that they can't be defeated by magic attacks
I also never said magic wasn't 1-A


I would suggest reading the entire CRT

Your entire CRT have:
0 statements about metaphysics, magic nature, any guidebook statements or even character statements there magic users say something like "magic didn't work on characters with high durability."
You just put several random scans and say that since characters didn't get one-shoted/killed it means that durability can counter magic.

 

[Eseseso]

I also take issue with the OP wanting to make it that people who don't resist certain haxxes will do so if they're magic, like saying someone with no mind hax resistance will somehow resist magical mind hax because being mystical in nature somehow nerfs it.

 

[Hypertornado099]

So it's only considered durability negation if it instantly kills or eliminates the target from existence? Not how it works.

Not what I said either, I even agreed with it being durability negation lol

Your entire CRT have:
0 statements about metaphysics, magic nature, any guidebook statements or even character statements there magic users say something like "magic didn't work on characters with high durability."
You just put several random scans and say that since characters didn't get one-shoted/killed it means that durability can counter magic.

What do statements about magic nature have to do with anything?

I also take issue with the OP wanting to make it that people who don't resist certain haxxes will do so if they're magic, like saying someone with no mind hax resistance will somehow resist magical mind hax because being mystical in nature somehow nerfs it.

You clearly didn't read the post because I didn't say anything implying that. I even said in the post that it being mystical in nature allows it to bypass durability and resistances to an extent

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Not what I said either, I even agreed with it being durability negation lol

This is ridiculous, and you are acting like an attack that bypasses durability but is affected by durability isn't contradictory.
You either acknowledge magic as durability negation or you don't.

 

[Hypertornado099]

This is ridiculous, and you are acting like an attack that bypasses durability but is affected by durability isn't contradictory.
You either acknowledge magic as durability negation or you don't.

I'm saying that yes, it bypasses resistances and dura but to a limited extent- for example if Human Torch, a guy without magic resistance, were to be hit by a hellfire attack, it can negate his resistance to conventional flame, but his lack of magic resistance doesn't cause him to be instantly one shot by all forms of magic, even if it bypasses his resistance

Its basically a partial durability negation

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Sir_Ovens @Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Dalesean027 @Reiner04 @UchihaSlayer96 @Emirp sumitpo @AbaddonTheDisappointment @KingTempest Your input here would be appreciated

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'm saying that yes, it bypasses resistances and dura but to a limited extent- for example if Human Torch, a guy without magic resistance, were to be hit by a hellfire attack, it can negate his resistance to conventional flame, but his lack of magic resistance doesn't cause him to be instantly one shot by all forms of magic, even if it bypasses his resistance

Its basically a partial durability negation

Again you have no idea of how durability negation works. It doesn't need to one shot or erase from existence to be durability negation, Law from one piece is one of the examples of durability negation and he doesn't even kill any target, heck he took out one characters heart from his body while the target still lives and moves. Flash phasing the opponents body is only considered durability negation if he affects the enemies brain or heart? No as long as he ignores his skin's resistance is already considered durability negation.
Go read the durability negation page.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think what OP's going for is the fact that some abilities only negate durability up to a certain point and by virtue of the clear showings where every random magic beam/attack isn't goring literally everyone in the verse with 0 magic resistance it works that way.

Law is a poor example because in his in essence he doesn't kill them but literally separating parts of their bodies in disregard for their durability still counts

Frankly I'm not personally subscribed to that idea because I more so believe that a lot of the random magic beams don't ignore durability in the first place. Whether magic itself being plot hax, concept hax, reality warping, space-time manipulation or all of the above in this case, the beam itself shouldn't inherently have any durability ignoring properties unless stated as such.

If you use any of those hax to do a specific thing, say shot a random **** all beam then i don't see why that beam will ignore durability, in the same way if you use them to create a gun and shoot someone there's no reason to believe the gun ignores durability especially when it's abundantly clear that characters with 0 resistance to such effects are not getting gored/insta killed by these beams and even when they do get knocked out they sometimes suffer 0 permanent damage and or require multiple hits to get temporarily felled.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Again you have no idea of how durability negation works. It doesn't need to one shot or erase from existence to be durability negation, Law from one piece is one of the examples of durability negation and he doesn't even kill any target, heck he took out one characters heart from his body while the target still lives and moves. Flash phasing the opponents body is only considered durability negation if he affects the enemies brain or heart? No as long as he ignores his skin's resistance is already considered durability negation.
Go read the durability negation page.

Suigetsu I think its clear that you are stonewalling this thread. I agree with the idea that you don't need to erase someone or oneshot something to be considered durability negation, in fact I said that in a comment you replied to earlier. The point of the thread isn't to say that Magic can't negate durability, so you're arguing against a point that I never brought up

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I think what OP's going for is the fact that some abilities only negate durability up to a certain point and by virtue of the clear showings where every random magic beam/attack isn't goring literally everyone in the verse with 0 magic resistance it works that way.

Law is a poor example because in his in essence he doesn't kill them but literally separating parts of their bodies in disregard for their durability still counts

Exactly because Law's attack still allows for the oppnent to live it's why it's a great example of how durability negation doesn't need to instantly one shot a target.

Frankly I'm not personally subscribed to that idea because I more so believe that a lot of the random magic beams don't ignore durability in the first place. Whether magic itself being plot hax, concept hax, reality warping, space-time manipulation or all of the above in this case, the beam itself shouldn't inherently have any durability ignoring properties unless stated as such.

If you use any of those hax to do a specific thing, say shot a random **** all beam then i don't see why that beam will ignore durability, in the same way if you use them to create a gun and shoot someone there's no reason to believe the gun ignores durability especially when it's abundantly clear that characters with 0 resistance to such effects are not getting gored/insta killed by these beams and even when they do get knocked out they sometimes suffer 0 permanent damage and or require multiple hits to get temporarily felled.

Do you understand what a verse specific ability is? It works by using scans of how the ability works and apply it universally, all those Smurf hax you mentioned is how the marvel describes it working. If Law's ability is literally stated to ignore durability by sheer nature of how the ability works do you need a statement saying it ignores durability every time he uses it?

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Exactly because Law's attack still allows for the oppnent to live it's why it's a great example of how durability negation doesn't need to instantly one shot a target.

Yeah but laws hax is specifically spatial hax that dislocates bodies without affecting the function, these body parts are essentially still "together" spatially so they function and organs don't randomly spill out unless law wants it so they actually take 0 damage even to while their locations in space are changed.

Compare that to the concept hax, law hax, space-time hax, plot hax etc. that the magic is supposed to have and we have a clear idea of why the first is treated differently + unlike with law, people seemingly argue that characters hit by the marvel magic in vs stuff are infact supposed to die rather than just get some inconsequential bodily dislocation.

Do you understand what a verse specific ability is? It works by using scans of how the ability works and apply it universally, all those Smurf hax you mentioned is how the marvel describes it working. If Law's ability is literally stated to ignore durability by sheer nature of how the ability works do you need a statement saying it ignores durability every time he uses it?

It being vs specific is irrelevant to the point that people in that same verse who themselves have 0 resistance to such hax are not getting gored by it in the way the hax is being argued in threads here.

The nature is irrelevant when the application of the ability is in question, law is undoubtably ignoring durability with the application of his hax he is using while a random beam has no reason to be assumed to ignore durability, especially when we clearly see it not do that to people with 0 resistance to the supposed hax.

Gremmy has Subjective reality which by it's nature can ignores durability but that doesn't mean that every application of that hax does that... When gremmy makes a bunch of guns or an explosion just because subjective reality can be used to ignore durability doesn't mean those specific application are displaying that property.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, no offense man, but people nowadays act like any character with one upscale or more than five abilities oneshot everyone in sight. I won't go by that anyways.

But yeah basically, not every spell is 1-A. Simple as. There are 1-A spells and there are 10-C spells in the verse. I don't see what the thread objective is.

Pretty much.

Like, if people are ignorant to the proper mechanics at play to make those Hulk claims, a simple fact check by a knowledgeable member and that's that.

 

[MrKerf]

Pretty much.

Like, if people are ignorant to the proper mechanics at play to make those Hulk claims, a simple fact check by a knowledgeable member and that's that.

If I recall, last time I asked about Hulk’s CM, two knowledgeable members were arguing against one another -_-