Marvel CM 1 Problems

[Robo432343]

Really? After reading an entire section of the magic blog (if you even read it at all) explaining how magic is conceptual and universal in nature, you didn't see anything that qualified in your opinion as universal?

Not the dozens of scans stating it to be a universal force?

No, because the scans you used straight up go against magic being a universal. A universal has to be a single property that is the same in every instance. If you take 'redness' for example, every red object (red car, red apple, red ruby) etc share the same property of 'redness'. Magic is the opposite of that. Its not an identical property, its a form of energy that is categorized into different types of egocentric, ecocentric, and exocentric magic. These magic types come from different sources, follow different rules, and operate differently. Instead of being like 'redness', magic is more of an energy which is just a label to group very different things together. There isn't a single identical 'magicness' present here. It’s just a convenient name for a range of different powers. And if there’s no single shared property, then it doesn’t qualify as a universal.

 

[SuperNova55555]

No, because the scans you used straight up go against magic being a universal. A universal has to be a single property that is the same in every instance. If you take 'redness' for example, every red object (red car, red apple, red ruby) etc share the same property of 'redness'. Magic is the opposite of that. Its not an identical property, its a form of energy that is categorized into different types of egocentric, ecocentric, and exocentric magic. These magic types come from different sources, follow different rules, and operate differently. Instead of being like 'redness', magic is more of an energy which is just a label to group very different things together. There isn't a single identical 'magicness' present here. It’s just a convenient name for a range of different powers. And if there’s no single shared property, then it doesn’t qualify as a universal.

I wouldn’t go sooo far. Different types of magic have differentia, which are basically properties that separate instances of a universal from each.

So, a horse has different properties from a dog, but they are still intrinsically “animals”. The “differentia” here are what separate a dog from a horse, while keeping them part of the same genus.

You can apply a similar logic here, but um. That’s all. Magic in general lacks any other proof though, so it can’t be CM1.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Idk but magic is as constant such as gravity, and other universe forces, as well trasncended and reemplace them


So what is the agrument against the Eternity in the Room?

You know, EVERYTHING, which is made up of magic

 

[MrKerf]

I don't particularly understand... any of metaphysics, but all Magic in terms of universal properties is basically "lie/story/belief so great that reality believes in it". Not... a clear-cut explanation, but it is what it is, no?

 

[Rgerdeena]

I don't particularly understand... any of metaphysics, but all Magic in terms of universal properties is basically "lie/story/belief so great that reality believes in it". Not... a clear-cut explanation, but it is what it is, no?

Magic’s a lot of things, but yeah that’s the main thing it is based on what a large amount of the scans say

 

[Eseseso]

I don't particularly understand... any of metaphysics, but all Magic in terms of universal properties is basically "lie/story/belief so great that reality believes in it". Not... a clear-cut explanation, but it is what it is, no?

That's basically magic at its core, yeah. Making the universe bend to your will and making it believe the story you want to impose on it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Right, so: What’s the difference between that and reality warping?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Right, so: What’s the difference between that and reality warping?

That’s not the only thing magic is, also that by itself is closer to subjective reality then reality warping

 

[MrKerf]

Right, so: What’s the difference between that and reality warping?

Functionally? There is no difference, at least in some iterations. But Reality Warping, as the name implies, when you warp reality. If we assume that what I said above is equivalent to "redness", then warping reality by force, without relying on its "consent" would be... idk "pinkness".

 

[SuperNova55555]

That’s not the only thing magic is, also that by itself is closer to subjective reality then reality warping

Yes because it has all these aspects and stuff to it. Plot and yadi yada. But I’m moreso wondering how that even remotely relates to CM1.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Right, so: What’s the difference between that and reality warping?

What is the difference between reality warping and CM1?

 

[SuperNova55555]

What is the difference between reality warping and CM1?

The way in which you affect reality, surely. Which is not simply “making stories real”.

 

[Hecky2222]

Thread is messy already, if Marvel magic doesn't qualify for CM1 it can be discussed in another thread. Since topic rn isn't about "if they qualify for CM1 or nah". Can we focus on proposals which was suggested?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Thread is messy already, if Marvel magic doesn't qualify for CM1 it can be discussed in another thread. Since topic rn isn't about "if they qualify for CM1 or nah". Can we focus on proposals which was suggested?

Agreed

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

The way in which you affect reality, surely. Which is not simply “making stories real”.

You mean stories which are conceptual in same way Eternity is? Or better yet, Yggdrasil (which encompases the multiverse and abstract) are made up from stories

Either way, we are no going to nowhere as i see no scan of you or robo part

Thread is messy already, if Marvel magic doesn't qualify for CM1 it can be discussed in another thread. Since topic rn isn't about "if they qualify for CM1 or nah". Can we focus on proposals which was suggested?

Sure, i dont mind magic don’t being conceptual in the sense of blow up a concept, as it is more like editing it to add up something that happen

E.i. alter reality to make possible fire in space

 

[KLOL506]

Thread is messy already, if Marvel magic doesn't qualify for CM1 it can be discussed in another thread. Since topic rn isn't about "if they qualify for CM1 or nah". Can we focus on proposals which was suggested?

There are already 3 disagrees to 1 agree on that front. I've already messaged more staff but any more disagrees and the CM aspect of this thread may as well be dead in the water.

The one thing that hasn't met much input is the PP and the NEP aspect.

 

[Hecky2222]

There are already 3 disagrees

Pretty sure OP changed position and suggested new proposal instead

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty sure OP changed position and suggested new proposal instead

Then IDK why Robo and SuperNova are still discussing Magic being CM1 or not given it's been rejected. It should honestly be dropped as it serves no further purpose anymore.

 

[Theglassman12]

They’re not even addressing the main points beyond just saying “it’s not enough”. If they’re not gonna address the scans and argue why it doesn’t work then this thread is pointless, especially with 3 staff disagreeing at bare minimum.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You are not tuff glassman

 

[Cipher72]

They’re not even addressing the main points beyond just saying “it’s not enough”. If they’re not gonna address the scans and argue why it doesn’t work then this thread is pointless, especially with 3 staff disagreeing at bare minimum.

Umm not my place to say this but I think OP, Nova and others are just "discussing" the viability of Marvel Magic being CM-1 but that's not the point of this thread. The OP directly says in the very premise of the thread that he has no qualms with Marvel Magic being a type 1 concept

I have no problems with the nature of magic itself being a type 1 concept

Furthermore in the edit he clarifies that the OP is about ensuring that Magic users have their respective feats with Magic mentioned in their feat section as well as the limitations if any.
I think we should reserve the discussion on Marvel Magic qualifying for a type-1 concept for another CRT because from my understanding of the OP that's not the topic of this CRT.

 

[Hecky2222]

Essentially what not reading thread fully and commenting does to people

 

[Robo432343]

Thread is messy already, if Marvel magic doesn't qualify for CM1 it can be discussed in another thread. Since topic rn isn't about "if they qualify for CM1 or nah". Can we focus on proposals which was suggested?

it seems only glass disagrees with the new proposal

 

[Elizhaa]

I also think CM type 1 is valid enough from Eseseso's explanations and seems it was from misunderstanding type 1 concepts; if some changes are needed, a note on the Magic page could work efficiently like Planck stated above.

 

[Hecky2222]

I also think CM type 1 is valid enough from Eseseso's explanations and seems it was from misunderstanding type 1 concepts; if some changes are needed, a note on the Magic page could work efficiently like Planck stated above.

Tbf, we are not arguing CM Type 1 being valid or not rn. Just SuperNova doubted CM1 thus some of people thinking "Thread is about CM1 Debunking"(It should be @Robo432343 fault for massive misleading title also). Through Discussion with Planck, Cipher already suggested better proposal there.

 

[Robo432343]

Tbf, we are not arguing CM Type 1 being valid or not rn. Just SuperNova doubted CM1 thus some of people thinking "Thread is about CM1 Debunking"(It should be @Robo432343 fault for massive misleading title also). Through Discussion with Planck, Cipher already suggested better proposal there.

No it’s not my fault people don’t read the op with the new proposal and everything

 

[KingTempest]

Put me with the

• Agree with the new proposal:
• Agrees that the extent to which they can use these abilities as well as limitations should be explained in the magic page

 

[Antvasima]

I still strongly agree with Robo432343 about that characters who haven't ever remotely demonstrated or implied a specific power, also shouldn't get that power listed in their pages.

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @ProfectusInfinity @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Eficiente @Adr10K @The_Impress

What do you think about the suggested revisions in this thread?

 

[FinePoint]

I still strongly agree with Robo432343 about that characters who haven't ever remotely demonstrated or implied a specific power, also shouldn't get that power listed in their pages.

What do you think about the suggested revisions in this thread?

For the Plot Manipulation that should absolutely be character-specific.

For the CM1 it's kind of complicated. If they're implied to be able to do general Concept Manipulation then that's definitely wrong, but if they're manipulating magic and that magic is a Type 1 Concept that makes it technically Concept Manipulation, even if relatively limited. If it's not elaborated on it should be.

 

[Robo432343]

For the Plot Manipulation that should absolutely be character-specific.

For the CM1 it's kind of complicated. If they're implied to be able to do general Concept Manipulation then that's definitely wrong, but if they're manipulating magic and that magic is a Type 1 Concept that makes it technically Concept Manipulation, even if relatively limited. If it's not elaborated on it should be.

What about instead of manipulating magic itself, they just use powers that come from magic and therefore CM 1

 

[FinePoint]

What about instead of manipulating magic itself, they just use powers that come from magic and therefore CM 1

That certainly could be the case.

"Magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so utterly, cosmically perfect that for a single, shining moment... the world believes a man can fly ", and those stories that become magic

My reading of this is more in the reverse direction, though- in that these stories aren't part of the concept of magic until you tell them to the universe.

Adding new objects into a concept is a type of Concept Manipulation.

Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.

Of course, this is just semantics. Either way it's clear these characters aren't making wide changes to the concept. If they do have CM it's extremely niche and limited, and that should be made clear at the very least.

 

[Eseseso]

For the Plot Manipulation that should absolutely be character-specific.

For the CM1 it's kind of complicated. If they're implied to be able to do general Concept Manipulation then that's definitely wrong, but if they're manipulating magic and that magic is a Type 1 Concept that makes it technically Concept Manipulation, even if relatively limited. If it's not elaborated on it should be.

I wouldn't mind adding a note saying that it is Concept Alteration. That is one of the 3 types of CM after all.

As for Plot Manip the thing is that magic in-universe is defined as imposing a narrative on the universe.

 

[FinePoint]

I wouldn't mind adding a note saying that it is Concept Alteration. That is one of the 3 types of CM after all.

As for Plot Manip the thing is that magic in-universe is defined as imposing a narrative on the universe.

Well Plot Manipulation usually refers to manipulating the plot.

Coming up with a narrative and making it real sounds more like Subjective Reality or just Reality Warping.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ExcelsisBerny Good to know there's no actual refute to Magic qualifying as a CM1.

@Cipher72 The conversation wasn't originally that, and Supernova was just outright dismissing the ability being CM1 despite the evidence being on the page. If we're talking about clarifying when a character can or cannot scale to specific abilities for magic that's a whole nother discussion, but the past couple of pages was Supernova just arguing against the idea of CM1 for magic.

@FinePoint There's entire Marvel issues that goes in depth with the magic being about rewriting stories. You can see in the page that there's plenty of examples with Magic being able to change stories and have on the nose examples like comic book panels being rewritten by magic. It definitely qualifies for Plot Hax.

 

[Excellence616]

There is a big misunderstanding about Marvel Magic system. I think the main issue is with the basic magic level since those from Low level/Common Spells and above are spell casters while few from Basic level aren't.

The Hulk and Juggernaut do not manipulate concepts or plot. It is the magic nature that is Conceptual and Narrative and depending on it's application can do a lot of things. The only benefits bricks like Hulk and Juggernaut get from magic are resistance to plot manipulation, Law manipulation, conceptual type 1 and among other abilities that comes with basic magic and magic nature hence it's no combat applicable but 1-A combat resistance to anyone they would fight. I do get that in the past during Versus battles, arguments where made stating Hulk can gamma punch and destroy you on Conceptual level but that was false. I do think he can do that only if he can give out huge amount of gamma energy which he does when in an enraged state or so.


But i do think abilities like Conceptual Type 1, Plot Manipulation and few others should be removed from Basic Level to Nature of magic tabber but some of those abilities can also be listed on Low level/Common Spells tabber

Well Plot Manipulation usually refers to manipulating the plot.

Coming up with a narrative and making it real sounds more like Subjective Reality or just Reality Warping.

Narrative and story has to do with plot tho.

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint There's entire Marvel issues that goes in depth with the magic being about rewriting stories. You can see in the page that there's plenty of examples with Magic being able to change stories and have on the nose examples like comic book panels being rewritten by magic. It definitely qualifies for Plot Hax.

Well, semantics aside, it should also be made clear there that for a vast majority of users it's extremely limited and the actual extent depends heavily on the user.

Otherwise, I don't really care if we technically call it Concept Manipulation, or Plot Manipulation, or both, or whatever. That we properly define the scope and use is more important to me.

 

[Theglassman12]

They have a section on which user of magic is in which section as well as have a list of weaknesses in regards to magic but if that needs to be further fleshed out then sure. Though the page is already well fleshed out as is.

 

[FinePoint]

They have a section on which user of magic is in which section as well as have a list of weaknesses in regards to magic but if that needs to be further fleshed out then sure. Though the page is already well fleshed out as is.

This line in particular is bad:

In short, Magic is a Metaphysical Aspect of the Marvel Universe and is also a Type 1 (Independent Universal) Concept, giving all those who can use even basic magic in Marvel Type 1 Concept Manipulation.

Should probably be something more like "giving all those who can use even basic magic in Marvel at least Limited Type 1 Concept Manipulation, the extent of which depending on the user."

 

[SuperNova55555]

@ExcelsisBerny Good to know there's no actual refute to Magic qualifying as a CM1.

@Cipher72 The conversation wasn't originally that, and Supernova was just outright dismissing the ability being CM1 despite the evidence being on the page. If we're talking about clarifying when a character can or cannot scale to specific abilities for magic that's a whole nother discussion, but the past couple of pages was Supernova just arguing against the idea of CM1 for magic.

@FinePoint There's entire Marvel issues that goes in depth with the magic being about rewriting stories. You can see in the page that there's plenty of examples with Magic being able to change stories and have on the nose examples like comic book panels being rewritten by magic. It definitely qualifies for Plot Hax.

Mind you, there was actually no response to any of my critiques here. You can look at genuinely every comment here, especially of the staff, and I’d be damned to see anyone actually say why Magic is a universal. Your comment as well is included here.

I wonder why noone has bothered to address that magic literally travels in quantitative amounts in tunnels, and how that doesn’t implicate it being a universal.

The only response so far, if it could be counted as one, is “the standards aren’t so”. And if I were to ask where on the wiki these “standards” are displayed at, I’d bet nobody in this thread could point me to them. Because they don’t exist. Nor would they actually reflect what the CM page itself says even in the off-chance they do.

Nor, would they also reflect what staff members such as Ultima or DT think about CM. And I would argue that they have pretty decent authority on these matters.

 

[FinePoint]

I wonder why noone has bothered to address that magic literally travels in quantitative amounts in tunnels, and how that doesn’t implicate it being a universal.

Because a universal concept has objects part of (defined by) it, and these parts can be referred to as the whole linguistically.

For example, you can say that there's "death all around" without disbarring death as a concept.