Marvel & DC rules on minimum appearance count

[Ayewale]

(Made this in Staff Discussion because it seems like it'd be really important.)

Buried within this page is probably the most important rule that the vsbw has regarding Marvel and DC characters:

• "For the Prime Marvel Universe, please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances)."
• "For DC Comics, refrain from making profiles for Golden Age characters with less than 5 appearances, Pre-Crisis characters with less than 15 appearances and Post-Crisis or Post-Flashpoint characters with less than 10 appearances..."
• "Alternative canon/non-canonical character profile pages for Marvel and DC Comics can only be created if the version in question was prominently featured in their own runs, and scale to their own feats instead of being presumed to scale to their main canon counterparts."

So, uh. This has been a thing for several years at this point, and my problem with these rules is that we should just...get rid of them. At the very least, we should nuke the first two rules because they serve absolutely zero purpose.

To start with, where do these numbers even come from? They're hyper-specific but have no justification whatsoever. These rules come off as incredibly arbitrary: why does a Pre-Crisis character need 15 appearances but a Post-Crisis needs 10? Why? Why does Marvel Comics require a whopping twenty different appearances before a character can be indexed? They are arbitrary and unjustified. Bare minimum, we should include an explanation for these numbers and why the rule even exists on the page, which brings us to the second problem:

Why do these rules even exist? Put plainly, I simply do not understand why these specific verses have such a huge barrier to entry for page creation.

The criterion for other characters being added to the wiki are:

• Your series isn't fanfiction and isn't collaborative fiction
• You yourself aren't a fanfiction-y character
• You aren't just an unremarkable 10-B human guy.

The criterion for every other comic book character:

• You aren't just an unremarkable 10-B human guy.

And then for Marvel and DC:

• You need to have two years of appearances if you're in Marvel Comics...
• And one year if you're in DC...
• Except Pre-Crisis characters need fifteen issues of appearances...
• And Golden Age characters need five?

Frankly it serves no purpose other than to get rid of 'unremarkable' characters that , if they appeared in another series, would be regarded as remarkable by default.

1. "But without this rule, we would add loads of minor characters!"
   1. First off, a character having less than twenty issues worth of appearances isn't 'minor'; if they appear in multiple issues at all and can be scaled, they're not minor (much less having a nineteen-issue comic book run and being disregarded as non-notable). Second off, so what? We add loads of 'minor' characters to the wiki literally all the time, because the concept of a 'minor' character doesn't even exist outside of these two specific verses. We have random dnd animals, fodder videogame enemies, loads of oneshot villains and more. The wiki isn't going to run out of space anytime soon, so we shouldn't have any unnecessary restrictions on page count.
2. "But without this rule, we'd have a lot more Marvel and DC pages to manage!"
   1. Indexing things properly can take a while, yeah. But 'lots of work' isn't an excuse.
3. "Marvel and DC are so big that what counts as a notable character should be different."
   1. First off...no. We do not implement this Sliding Scale of Notability for any other verse, regardless of it's size, to any other verse in the wiki. And even if we did, the rule serves no actual practical purpose; I can't fathom why any character on this wiki would be allowed if it was published by Image Comics but not allowed if it was published by Marvel Comics.
   2. More importantly, Marvel and DC are far from the only verses on the wiki that are long-running and vast, yet to my knowledge are the only ones with this rule. If a verse has a large amount of characters and has been going on for decades, we should just...index the verse properly, yeah? And not decided that a huge amount of characters just don't count.
      1. "But those verses don't have multiple writers!" We do not have a minimum cross-reference count for SCPs.
4. "But we've had this rule for a long time; we shouldn't change it."
   1. Yes we should. Better to start now than never.

Agree: Maverick_Zero_X, CrimsonStarFallen, IdiosyncraticLawyer, Tllmbrg, CloverDragon03, Elizhaa, Marvel_Champion_07, Bobsican, M3X_2.0, DaReaperMan
Disagree: Armorchompy, The_Impress, SuigetsuHugs, Antvasima, Slightly Deagonx

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with this.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Agree, definitely. The standard for a character's viability shouldn't be in how many issues they've existed, but if they actually have any powers worth indexing at all. Several minor characters that I've really liked and would have really interesting pages and powers couldn't be made because of this rule.

For reference, the page also says an alternative key for a character needs at least 15 issues for it to be allowed into the page, yet I'm pretty sure Thanos has held the Infinity Gauntlet (or the Heart of the Universe [or the Astral Regulator]) for less than that.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Agree.

 

[Tllmbrg]

As a guy who literally made over 200 pages for D&D with a good chunk of them being stuff that would be considered minor yah this makes sense
People should be allowed to make small pages so long as said pages can be maintained

 

[Deagonx]

If I'd known this rule existed I would've simply deleted CAS and Mandrakk off the wiki a long time ago

but yeah I agree.

 

[LordTracer]

They're hyper-specific but have no justification whatsoever. These rules come off as incredibly arbitrary: why does a Pre-Crisis character need 15 appearances but a Post-Crisis needs 10? Why? Why does Marvel Comics require a whopping twenty different appearances before a character can be indexed? They are arbitrary and unjustified.

I have no opinion on this thread, but I would like to comment on this. Pre-Crisis requires more appearances than Post-Crisis simply because it’s a larger era.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If I'd known this rule existed I would've simply deleted CAS and Mandrakk off the wiki a long time ago

If this passes, I'm going to be restoring Strange Visitor Superman.

 

[Ayewale]

I have no opinion on this thread, but I would like to comment on this. Pre-Crisis requires more appearances than Post-Crisis simply because it’s a larger era.

Post-Crisis is about 38 years of comics, the Golden Age of DC Comics is 23 years old (1935-1956) and Pre-Crisis (in-between the Golden Age and Post-Crisis) is 29 years old (1956 to 1985). Unless there's another metric we're using, Post-Crisis comics (including Post-Flashpoint stuff) are bigger.

 

[Deagonx]

Isn't golden age part of pre crisis?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't really know much about Marvel and DC Comics but even so, I can safely say I agree. Regardless of the series, this feels like a pretty arbitrary restriction

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Isn't golden age part of pre crisis?

We count them as separate eras.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree as well

 

[Bobsican]

I got permission from @Agnaa to post the following here:

So... this rule was mainly done by @The_Impress and other comics supporters, starting out from here in that thread, then got its own thread and as usual was accepted to begin with.

Anyways, the reasons basically boil down to notability within a verse to avoid having a lot of practically irrelevant characters for the given verses, and to minimize clean-up for very niche characters.

Personally I think the very premise is outdated as much we even allow characters from a lot of alternate contuities, when back then that was banned under the same premise (notability/clutter on a verse), and pages that don't stay up to standard can just be nominated for deletion as usual, the number of pages on the site keeps growing either way, after all.

 

[The_Impress]

The reason the rule exists is, is so you cannot make 90 million characters and make further revisions living hell for everyone involved.

I don't think any of you have ever done a versewide revision for Marvel and DC before, I have, multiple times in fact: It's not fun to comb through every character's library to verify whether they reach a certain proposal or trend you're insinuating towards and where they'll fit, this isn't like other verses where people have more linear A scales to B scales to C scales to D feats.

You literally make it impossible for people to actually fix shit and make adjustments unless they SACRIFICE MONTHS to go across dumbass one-off villain #9283937494's appearances to make sure he doesn't destroy the entire tiering process by fighting The Thing in one comic but "Uh oh! They ran out of ******* to fill in for the Spider-Man monthly that one time!!!", AND THIS IS A VERSE WHOSE MECHANICS CHANGE NEARLY EVERY THREE MONTHS AND ADDS NEW CHARACTERS EVERY MONTH

Trust me when I say it, removing page limits ONLY favours people who DON'T EVER DO ANYTHING for the verse, and make people who actively engage with it basically miserable on working on it. Nobody realistically can have the determination to maintain and keep up with 1500 characters' statistics and scaling, hell given the current state of the wiki y'all can't keep up with the present 500.

Think for a fraction of a second the PRACTICALITY over the IDEAL., when the verse was 300 IT TOOK LITERAL MONTHS TO PROPOSE ANYTHING FOR RESEARCH ALONE, AND HAD MULTIPLE VERSE SUPPORTERS HELPING ME.

LOTS OF WORK IS an excuse, you don't pay us, we don't have to deal with your trash every time you think "haha this funny 8 issue character was fun to add", it's not something a supporter will lose sleep over not supporting. Did you forget this was A HOBBY?

If the ACTIVE SUPPORTERS give the consensus they'll maintain literally every single character added on the wiki, then only is the rule worth removing, not random ass staff members with no skin in the game crawling out of their own indie game verses and then going "yeah this makes sense"

 

[Deagonx]

Perhaps it would be better, then, to transpose this rule into a broader one of notability. Like it has been pointed out above, there are quite a few rather notable characters who only appear in a few issues.

 

[The_Impress]

Perhaps it would be better, then, to transpose this rule into a broader one of notability. Like it has been pointed out above, there are quite a few rather notable characters who only appear in a few issues.

Notability is already a criteria that we give exception to, you can be added to the wiki if you're important, read the rules, I didn't make them up on fly they were discussed with verse supporters at the time.

 

[The_Impress]

Also Deagon tag Ant n stuff, comics require more input than people who barely read them, Ant has his list n stuff. At the absolute least he should be tagged on significant site changes :v

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima

 

[The_Impress]

And of course I know it's not the prettiest reasoning, but it's the realest reasoning I can give you, other verses that may have a huge amount of characters comparable to comics are games that have some degree of standardization present in their statistics (through in-gamee stats) or just a genuinely super dedicated fandom that has at the bare minimum 20 members at any time actively researching the verse, or people who assured they'd no-life to maintain their verses, and HAVE.

I have never remotely seen anything like that done for either Marvel or DC, if anyone knows in Vs. Central and other discord servers I literally tried to persuade people to EVEN MAKE those 20 issue pages, let alone them helping with revisions (I had tops one or two active researchers help me because I friend-guilted them and the rest chiming in once a damn month)

Y'all are talking the talk right now, but literally none have walked the walk required to maintain verses with the scope you're projecting, especially HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE, INTERLINKED and ONGOING verses at scales unprecedented, and if you're just suggesting "**** updating pages my 20 Crimson Dynamo pages are more important because muh funny", you're just spitting in the face of everyone who actually wants to do any fixing of the stats.

This is the kinda shit that actively kills the verse.

 

[The_Impress]

Perhaps it would be better, then, to transpose this rule into a broader one of notability. Like it has been pointed out above, there are quite a few rather notable characters who only appear in a few issues.

For the Prime Marvel Universe, please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances). For DC Comics, refrain from making profiles for Golden Age characters with less than 5 appearances, Pre-Crisis characters with less than 15 appearances and Post-Crisis or Post-Flashpoint characters with less than 10 appearances, unless they play an extremely important part in the scaling of other characters, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is.

From https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Power-scaling_Rules_for_Marvel_and_DC_Comics

One of the geniuses decided to remove the original text (from this revision: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/P...mics?type=revision&diff=7728599&oldid=7567224)

It stated:

Please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances) in regards to the Prime Marvel Universe and mainline DC continuity (Golden Age + Pre-Crisis + Post-Crisis + Post-Flashpoint + Rebirth) comics, unless they play an extremely important part in the overall plot and scaling of the characters, or are frequently mentioned by other media, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is.

So yeah re-add this line, it changed from my time so the rule is more moronic now than it was before.

Sorry for assuming it stayed the same.

 

[Armorchompy]

Don't have an opinion on the thread, definitely in favor of notability rule being re-added

 

[M3X_2.0]

Finally. Get rid of it. I was basically locked from creating a few profiles and adding new keys because of this appearances bullshit.

 

[Ayewale]

The reason the rule exists is, is so you cannot make 90 million characters and make further revisions living hell for everyone involved.

I don't think any of you have ever done a versewide revision for Marvel and DC before, I have, multiple times in fact: It's not fun to comb through every character's library to verify whether they reach a certain proposal or trend you're insinuating towards and where they'll fit, this isn't like other verses where people have more linear A scales to B scales to C scales to D feats.

You literally make it impossible for people to actually fix shit and make adjustments unless they SACRIFICE MONTHS to go across dumbass one-off villain #9283937494's appearances to make sure he doesn't destroy the entire tiering process by fighting The Thing in one comic but "Uh oh! They ran out of ***** to fill in for the Spider-Man monthly that one time!!!", AND THIS IS A VERSE WHOSE MECHANICS CHANGE NEARLY EVERY THREE MONTHS AND ADDS NEW CHARACTERS EVERY MONTH

Trust me when I say it, removing page limits ONLY favours people who DON'T EVER DO ANYTHING for the verse, and make people who actively engage with it basically miserable on working on it. Nobody realistically can have the determination to maintain and keep up with 1500 characters' statistics and scaling, hell given the current state of the wiki y'all can't keep up with the present 500.

Think for a fraction of a second the PRACTICALITY over the IDEAL., when the verse was 300 IT TOOK LITERAL MONTHS TO PROPOSE ANYTHING FOR RESEARCH ALONE, AND HAD MULTIPLE VERSE SUPPORTERS HELPING ME.

LOTS OF WORK IS an excuse, you don't pay us, we don't have to deal with your trash every time you think "haha this funny 8 issue character was fun to add", it's not something a supporter will lose sleep over not supporting. Did you forget this was A HOBBY?

If the ACTIVE SUPPORTERS give the consensus they'll maintain literally every single character added on the wiki, then only is the rule worth removing, not random ass staff members with no skin in the game crawling out of their own indie game verses and then going "yeah this makes sense"

Yes, it's a lot of work, as is managing a wiki with 32k pages, dozens of battles, dozens of discussion threads and endless drama, every day, for what I think is a decade or so. Hell, managing our marvel and DC pages now is a ******* nightmare of work. But if "damn, this will be hard" is a lot of work then we should just blow up the entire wiki. Since we're not, it's still a completely invalid excuse.

Plus, it's not like this is the first massive revision the wiki's ever had? Hell this isn't even my first huge CRT. 'Big work scary' has never held up under the wiki's scrutiny and it won't now.

Also, since most of these characters are minor, they won't have to be monitored that much lol. You're not going to sweating your ass off managing Galactus's Daughter or Sideways or some bullshit.

Last one, but also...calm down a bit, this read like a rant.

And of course I know it's not the prettiest reasoning, but it's the realest reasoning I can give you, other verses that may have a huge amount of characters comparable to comics are games that have some degree of standardization present in their statistics (through in-gamee stats) or just a genuinely super dedicated fandom that has at the bare minimum 20 members at any time actively researching the verse, or people who assured they'd no-life to maintain their verses, and HAVE.

I have never remotely seen anything like that done for either Marvel or DC, if anyone knows in Vs. Central and other discord servers I literally tried to persuade people to EVEN MAKE those 20 issue pages, let alone them helping with revisions (I had tops one or two active researchers help me because I friend-guilted them and the rest chiming in once a damn month)

Y'all are talking the talk right now, but literally none have walked the walk required to maintain verses with the scope you're projecting, especially HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE, INTERLINKED and ONGOING verses at scales unprecedented, and if you're just suggesting "***** updating pages my 20 Crimson Dynamo pages are more important because muh funny", you're just spitting in the face of everyone who actually wants to do any fixing of the stats.

This is the kinda shit that actively kills the verse.

This post leaves me perplexed. Your entire reason for this standard exists hinges on us not working on these pages, but the standards literally stop these pages from being worked on in the first place; if it never existed, maybe we'd have gotten more work done years ago. Not allowing someone's effort, because it'd take too much effort, for years on end, then complaining about it taking too much effort when they're literally asking to try themselves...this logic is nonsensical.

Saying that this change would kill the verse, knowing that there are people preparing to make lots of changes and update the verse's indexes, is pretty much objectively wrong. This entire argument seems to hinge on a really strange idea that not allowing people to do work will spare them from the horrors of doing work, which I'm pretty sure you yourself know the issues with.

In any case, you've already admitted that your opposition to this change comes from being petty, not actual logic. As far as I'm concerned, that means everyone in this thread knows that the CRT is logically sound...which it all that matters for CRTs.

 

[Ayewale]

@Antvasima

This thread is 10-2 btw. Pretty sure this can be implemented?

 

[Deagonx]

No, Impress' comments need to be taken into account before we decide whether to implement this.

 

[Ayewale]

No, Impress' comments need to be taken into account before we decide whether to implement this.

Sure, but she's not going to singlehandedly make the thread unimplementable because she disagrees (for, from her own words, petty reasons) with 10+.

 

[The_Impress]

Yes, it's a lot of work, as is managing a wiki with 32k pages, dozens of battles, dozens of discussion threads and endless drama, every day, for what I think is a decade or so. Hell, managing our marvel and DC pages now is a ***** nightmare of work. But if "damn, this will be hard" is a lot of work then we should just blow up the entire wiki. Since we're not, it's still a completely invalid excuse.

Do you know it's alot of work to make speed-based categories despite it being critically important? Why don't we do that though?

Dumb as all hell logic

Plus, it's not like this is the first massive revision the wiki's ever had? Hell this isn't even my first huge CRT. 'Big work scary' has never held up under the wiki's scrutiny and it won't now.

Your CRT is fuckall work.

Also, since most of these characters are minor, they won't have to be monitored that much lol. You're not going to sweating your ass off managing Galactus's Daughter or Sideways or some bullshit.

...we will, Galactus' Daughter would have a scaling to existent characters whose scaling chains will shift and as such their scalings will switch.

Galactus' Daughter is basically non-616 anyways so dumb equivalence

Last one, but also...calm down a bit, this read like a rant.

This post leaves me perplexed. Your entire reason for this standard exists hinges on us not working on these pages, but the standards literally stop these pages from being worked on in the first place; if it never existed, maybe we'd have gotten more work done years ago.

Define "work" in this context.

Because if "work" by your definition is making 5 issue characters, re-examine your definition of work

Not allowing someone's effort, because it'd take too much effort, for years on end, then complaining about it taking too much effort when they're literally asking to try themselves...this logic is nonsensical.

Your paragraph reads like nonsense to me, reiterate.

Saying that this change would kill the verse, knowing that there are people preparing to make lots of changes and update the verse's indexes, is pretty much objectively wrong. This entire argument seems to hinge on a really strange idea that not allowing people to do work will spare them from the horrors of doing work, which I'm pretty sure you yourself know the issues with.

Reiterate, your framing is nonsense here.

In any case, you've already admitted that your opposition to this change comes from being petty, not actual logic. As far as I'm concerned, that means everyone in this thread knows that the CRT is logically sound...which it all that matters for CRTs.

Bro literally goes "WELL YOUR LOGIC IS NONSENSE" and decides to move for thread closure in a single response. In what realm is this debate ethics? Wow you got input from people who barely inputted on the damn verses. That's not grounds for voting, and debate would happen regardless, people can change votes and credibility of votes shift. You're not new to the wiki Ayewale, don't become brand new for the sake of forcing a revision in.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I'm not making a vote on this thread, because I'm not an expert of the verse, I just want to point out that I strongly dislike the mentality of trying to speedrun this thread, at least that what it looks like.

I think placing opinions of those who are actual experts, and those who have put most of the hard work into maintaining the profiles, below people who aren't isn't what should be taken into account. It really should be the people who are really familiar with the verse making the decisions here.

 

[Ayewale]

Bro literally goes "WELL YOUR LOGIC IS NONSENSE" and decides to move for thread closure in a single response. In what realm is this debate ethics? Wow you got input from people who barely inputted on the damn verses. That's not grounds for voting, and debate would happen regardless, people can change votes and credibility of votes shift. You're not new to the wiki Ayewale, don't become brand new for the sake of forcing a revision in.

But your logic is nonsense. The premise of your argument is founded on "it's too much work so we shouldn't do it". As I repeated in this thread's original post, and said in about five different ways, the wiki rather plainly doesn't subscribe to this logic, and so the argument falls apart by default.

Do you know it's alot of work to make speed-based categories despite it being critically important? Why don't we do that though?

Quite frankly, we should have speed-based categories and we don't do it out of sheer laziness. But, importantly, we don't have a rule preventing us from making speed categories. If we did, I would have made a thread against it.

There's also not much else to reiterate about the second point because it's as plain as I can make it; I'd just repeat myself. Although I'll expand on the first point since it's short:

• You should not prevent people from doing work on the sole basis of it being too hard, simple as. Indexing minor comic book characters isn't dangerous or a risky economic incentive or some other shit, it's literally just doing what we're already doing but without arbitrary exceptions.

Define "work" in this context.

Because if "work" by your definition is making 5 issue characters, re-examine your definition of work

Your CRT is fuckall work.

Okay but what about the actual point being made? Specifically 'Big scary work' has never been an excuse on the wiki?

 

[Confluctor]

I was the thread creator back then, so I probably should chime in. Also got permission from Armor via Discord.

In any case, is the rule perfect? No, far from it. However, it is important that we have proper standards for these two verses when it comes to indexing seeing how they are literally one of the, if not the longest and largest running series in terms of publication in the entire world. Ofc, you get random crap that are hard to properly rate without more context, which in this case means, obviously more appearances. Comics have 23 pages, sometimes nothing happens in it. We all like a bunch of small-time characters, hell Infant Terrible is a very character I would have liked to index many years ago, but he's got limited appearances, and absolutely shitty scaling. Maybe more appearances would fix that, but now he is all over the place. Beat the Thing? Sure. Struggle against an enemy Spidey overpowered? Also sure. Scale to a herald of Galactus? Also, sure. Do you see the kind of shit small time characters go through?

Might sound rude, but honestly, why are non-comic supporters making this thread, and let alone everyone agreeing with it? Why don't you guys actually get involved with fixing the mess that is these two verses - which have gotten considerably worser over the course of last year - and then actually try to change rules and regulations related to it? When this rule was made, it was the only sensible thing we could do. Do I like it, no. But we can't go with likes - as again, if we do that, managing these verses gets harder and harder.

I don't disagree that the distinction is arbitrary, so why not actually devise a proper distinction for these numbers, assuming you actually know the material. Having a rule like this actually help with quality controlling, assuming you lot still care about that - which I can't say I can see from the quality of pages. But you know.

I don't agree with removing the rule, however, disregard my vote as you see fit, seeing as I am not actually as active anymore. However, I would rather someone like Emirp (only example I can think of atm) be the one to create and revise the rule that is currently in place. You know why? Because he actually gives a single flying **** about the verse and has been making profiles, revising them, working on scaling, etc, etc.

I also don't like how this is a staff thread, given that most of them haven't touched a comic in years, or if in forever. This should be discussed with actual, active supporters of both verses. And what I mean by active is those who are still actually fixing the verse - in any way, shape or form. Why are staff, who haven't worked much on these verses, decide what actually works and not for these two verses?


Anyway, peace out. Please don't continue quoting directly, just remove my username when doing so. I probably won't return to this thread again.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Emirp sumitpo

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Okay but what about the actual point being made? Specifically 'Big scary work' has never been an excuse on the wiki?

Y'know people have lives outside this place right? And huge projects like this between small groups of people probably takes months to do...

 

[Ayewale]

I'm not making a vote on this thread, because I'm not an expert of the verse, I just want to point out that I strongly dislike the mentality of trying to speedrun this thread, at least that what it looks like.

I think placing opinions of those who are actual experts, and those who have put most of the hard work into maintaining the profiles, below people who aren't isn't what should be taken into account. It really should be the people who are really familiar with the verse making the decisions here.

Apologies if it comes off that way. I'm not trying to 'speedrun' the thread, but I prefer changes that the vast-majority agree with go by quicker rather than slower. Threads being filibustered endlessly only to never get passed because one staff out of seventeen disagreed. I am not accusing Agnaa of this btw, but I've been in these 30-2 threads and it's extremely annoying.

Also Agnaa's accusations of everyone here not giving a shit about the verse aren't correct btw, it's rude at best.

Y'know people have lives outside this place right? And huge projects like this between small groups of people probably takes months to do...

Totally, but that doesn't mean we don't have to make it a rule that we can't do huge projects lol. That is my only issue. I don't disagree it'd add work, but at the very least we shouldn't actively prevent it, eh?

 

[The_Impress]

But your logic is nonsense. The premise of your argument is founded on "it's too much work so we shouldn't do it". As I repeated in this thread's original post, and said in about five different ways, the wiki rather plainly doesn't subscribe to this logic, and so the argument falls apart by default.

I am going to stop you there and say that the wiki HAS rejected multiple projects for being unfeasible to apply, a significant portion of our bans on files do stem from being too much to manage, and many of my own sitewide CRTs were rejected because they were too much work (See infoboxes, and the original tiering category proposal)

You are utterly wrong here, maintaining 30k pages are undertaking of Ant and the respective verses' supporters by God be glad over that. We HAVE had thousands of pages deleted because they were under maintained. It's a factor of doing work THAT PEOPLE WILL STAND BY. We will 100% reject work nobody who'll stand by it until the very end wants to ******* do and isn't worth it.

Stop inventing characteristics of the wiki that are bluntly untrue.

Quite frankly, we should have speed-based categories and we don't do it out of sheer laziness. But, importantly, we don't have a rule preventing us from making speed categories. If we did, I would have made a thread against it.

Will you take full responsibility to account for all the files created and their scaling?

There's also not much else to reiterate about the second point because it's as plain as I can make it; I'd just repeat myself. Although I'll expand on the first point since it's short:

• You should not prevent people from doing work on the sole basis of it being too hard, simple as. Indexing minor comic book characters isn't dangerous or a risky economic incentive or some other shit, it's literally just doing what we're already doing but without arbitrary exceptions.

This is naïve, just because I'm not burning money doesn't mean I'm not burning time, which is valuable.

You recognise colleges and jobs exist right? So I should quit hobby work to put up with you ruining it on the account of me unnecessarily accounting your one-off characters?

Cute. Dodging the critique by inane answer as well.

 

[Ayewale]

Forgot to get rid of quote tagging ahhh so sorry Confluctor ;;

Also btw, I would've actually preferred to make this a non-staff thread but I assumed that since it's such a big change, it'd get shifted to Staff Discussion automatically. If any staff could move this out of Staff Discussion (if that's possible) it'd be appreciated.

We all like a bunch of small-time characters, hell Infant Terrible is a very character I would have liked to index many years ago, but he's got limited appearances, and absolutely shitty scaling. Maybe more appearances would fix that, but now he is all over the place. Beat the Thing? Sure. Struggle against an enemy Spidey overpowered? Also sure. Scale to a herald of Galactus? Also, sure. Do you see the kind of shit small time characters go through?

Sounds like the shit big time characters go through too. Although if this was a very big issue, worst-case scenario we could just make a note on these characters pages that "due to their limited appearances, these characters have a large variance in their ratings and shouldn't be used for scaling". I will take that long before restrictions on their creation.

Also, the issue rule doesn't really...fix this? If infant was this inconsistent over twenty issues, you'd still...have...to index him. You'd probably end up with a varies rating regardless. If the suggestion is "well more issues makes them more consistent", why not make a rule saying that only characters with semi-consistent scaling can be added? Issue Count doesn't matter.

Might sound rude, but honestly, why are non-comic supporters making this thread, and let alone everyone agreeing with it?

First off...I know comics too lol, I don't list myself as a supporter because I didn't care enough. More importantly, you don't need to be involved with comics to see the problems with the rule, something made self-evident by the amount of non-comic-book supporters saying "this shit is dumb". Since the problem with this rule is it's inconsistencies with wiki policy/philosophy, anyone with knowledge of that should have the right to chime in.

It would be like if someone said "Naruto shouldn't be star-level because I don't like it". The errors here are not naruto-specific, hm? I also think a large part of why people don't care about the comic book verses is due to all the dumb bullshit that they and they alone deal with, so getting rid of this rule only helps.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I'll just say that I probably do count as a comic supporter (I have made 8 Marvel pages, 4 DC ones, revised 15 Marvel pages, and 5 DC ones. So overall I worked on 32 Marvel pages, which is not a huge amount but I'd like to think that it at least gives me more say than some random) that I think removing this rule is fine.
All that really matters imo is that the pages that the people make are good and are up to standards so when revisions come around we can just check what links to what and edit accordingly.

 

[The_Impress]

I'll just say that I probably do count as a comic supporter (I have made 8 Marvel pages, 4 DC ones, revised 15 Marvel pages, and 5 DC ones. So overall I worked on 32 Marvel pages, which is not a huge amount but I'd like to think that it at least gives me more say than some random) that I think removing this rule is fine.

You literally dodged every single research request I asked of you when it came to researching bigger projects and then made multiple threads trying to reintegrate your own pages to the revision.

But yeah in all seriousness Tilm, I think you're not acknowledging the tedium we had to do even in the holdback rescaling project where it took literal weeks to even apply the revision, and the verse is 3 times as big now, and frankly, the supporterbase isn't scaling up to that.

All that really matters imo is that the pages that the people make are good and are up to standards so when revisions come around we can just check what links to what and edit accordingly.

You can literally not guarantee this imo, and no you'd have to recheck regardless because scans can very easily be OOC, and keep an account whether their stats shifted or else the wiki will have a shit page that's inaccurate or there would need to be routine checks to the deletion thread.

I think you're ignoring context here, you refuse to work on the verse nowadays anyhow, correct? So it's not like the rule getting removed will affect you given you don't touch it.

Again I am fine if an active verse supporter says that yes, they'll account for the extra pages and all their scaling and updates, I consider M3X active enough and I think his opinion's fine. When people who haven't touched the verse or became inactive before I even quit say it, it's straight up unwarranted. Of course it's not with respect to who I consider at the end of the day, but if you genuinely vouch for maintaining all the extra pages I am completely fine with removing the rule.

 

[Ayewale]

I am going to stop you there and say that the wiki HAS rejected multiple projects for being unfeasible to apply, a significant portion of our bans on files do stem from being too much to manage, and many of my own sitewide CRTs were rejected because they were too much work (See infoboxes, and the original tiering category proposal)

Those are new features, though, not the wiki working normally. "Index Marvel and DC as normal" does not fall into the same category as "Add infoboxes to every page". Additionally, you said it yourself: those are site-wide, universal changes, which is a much, much, much bigger scale than just Marvel and DC, so these equivalences are false.

If the pages get deleted for being non-maintained so be it. At someone who wants to maintain them will be allowed to lol.

Will you take full responsibility to account for all the files created and their scaling?

Hm?
"The kitchen is burning down. We should do something about that--"
"Will you take full responsibility for putting out the fire?"

I really dislike this argument because you don't actually disagree with me saying we shouldn't have speed categories, you're falling back on the
"well why don't you make your own movie" tier of arguments. No I'm not going to take full responsibility for those files because I'm neither staff nor a Content Moderator; you'd have a bit of a point if I was those things, but since I'm not, no dice. No, I'm not going to take single-handedly take responsibility for the wiki's fuckups, but that does not nullify my ability to point it out.

Also again, the point is that there isn't a rule preventing speed categories, as there shouldn't be a rule preventing minor comic book characters.

This is naïve, just because I'm not burning money doesn't mean I'm not burning time, which is valuable.

You recognise colleges and jobs exist right? So I should quit hobby work to put up with you ruining it on the account of me unnecessarily accounting your one-off characters?

There isn't any time on the vsbw more or less valuable than any other: squabbling over Baby Galactus is exactly as important as squabbling about Real Galactus. Also...no one's forcing you to care. Eliminating this rule is to allow people to make these profiles, not force you to do it. I am also typing this post from a college dorm so...yeah.

This rule isn't ruining 'anything'.

Also you asked what work means and I answered. It's not an inane answer, it's just a straightforward one. Literally all you asked was "define work" and I did.

Again I am fine if an active verse supporter says that yes, they'll account for the extra pages and all their scaling and updates, I consider M3X active enough and I think his opinion's fine.

This is a very interesting comment because it suggests you don't have any actual objection to the idea at hand, only it's implementation. Truth be told if the only reason you're disagreeing with me is because I'm not swearing to fix the verse page by page, then our conversation is over because that has nothing to do with whether or not the CRT is correct. There is no standard on the wiki saying "to pass a CRT you need to personally oversee every single change"--I know this from personal experience--so it's not an objection.

Also just for clarification, do you disagree with the CRT or just with the fact that I'm the one making it? If M3X made this thread and promised to oversee it would you say yes?

If it makes you feel any better, I'll try to work on these pages myself if the CRT gets passed.