New rule regarding Marvel and DC comics

[Confluctor]

Ant gave me permission to make this thread.

Originally brought up in this thread, Impress proposed a new rule regarding comic book profiles.

"Please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances) in regards to the Prime Marvel Universe comics, unless they play an extremely important part in the overall plot and scaling of the characters, or are frequently mentioned by other medias, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is

• For keys in existing profiles, and equipment files, one only requires at least 15 appearances across comic books, (approximately 1 year's worth of appearances), as opposed to 20.

Marvel you can put this in the Power Scaling section, DC is harder to judge because the reboots slice up appearances list alot, so prominent characters can appear very low in say, Post-Flashpoint or Rebirth

Oh ALSO, should make a note that certain files and keys can be kept for scaling purposes, like I remember Firepower should be kept despite not hitting appearance limit, because he's a really good illustration of the sheer powergap between Models 8 and 9, and Equinox is important for Hank Pym's scaling

Tl;Dr:

• Pages cannot be made for characters who appeared in less than 20 issues across the company. However, if they are mentioned in another medias, or are prominently featured in a large crossover event, then an exception can be made. And if a page already exists, then it does not need to deleted, but if they don't meet this criteria, then something will be done about them.
  • An example of this would be the Challenger. He appeared in less than 20 issues, but has been a major character in an event and has been mentioned a few times, so he can stay. But characters like the Black Berserkers - Gorr's creation - cannot have a page as they have very few appearances or relevance.
    • That page got deleted earlier today.
• Keys are slightly different. Impress proposed that for a character to get a new key, they must have at least 10 - 15 appearances. Some power ups are too short lasting, so we cannot list them all, but if a power up appears in many issues, then its important enough and can be added to their page.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss this rule, propose any changes to it if you wish, and then decide on how to apply it. Additionally, we can use this thread to create a similar rule for DC Comics. DC Comics is a bit more complicated in comparison, so it needs a long discussion.

Note: Staff and knowledgeable members ONLY.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @The_Impress @Planck69

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

Here is the page where the new rule would be written btw:

Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

There are several massive problems with using power-scaling for these two prominent franchises that have shared hundreds of different authors over several decades. Said writers naturally tend to have highly differing opinions and interpretations, which is reflected in their stories. Quite often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LordTracer]

I completely agree with implementing this rule for Marvel, but just to make sure I’m understanding, a character like Toxin would be allowed despite having less than 20 issues, but someone like Red Shift probably wouldn’t, right?

 

[Confluctor]

Essentially, yes. Toxin has been an important character in Venom/Carnage lore, so I believe he should be fine to have a page, Red Shift on the hand, not so much. Looking at his file, 3/12 are guidebooks, 1 is a gag comic. That leaves only 8 appearances, and he hasn't been seen as an important person in Surfer or Galan's lore. Plus Toxin had his own series, right?

But let's wait for Impress to see what they say.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

So jokey characters like Galacta who serve no true purpose to the lore and don't really offer anything to the story are going, I take it

 

[Confluctor]

Essentially yes. Her file also pretty poor, so we can yeet it off. But if someone wants to revise it, I guess a case can be made for it? Tho personally I am all for its deletion.

 

[LordTracer]

As much as I love Galacta, she only has two appearances and isn’t even in Earth-616, so yeah, it should be deleted.

 

[Confluctor]

Speaking of, this page might need to get nuked too. Yeah it's iconic, but just not enough, and profile is lacking scans.

The Brothers Yin and Yang

Tier: Unknown, likely Low 1-A | Low 2-C Name: The Brothers, Yin, Yang Origin: Amalgam Comics (Marvel and DC) Gender: Genderless Age: Unknown Classification: Cosmic Entities, Primordial Deities, Embodiment of the Marvel Universe and the DC Universe Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical...

vsbattles.fandom.com

And this one too imo

Venom (Venom: The End)

The eldritch being known as Venom was once only one of the countless of parasitic entities splintered from the ancient Klyntar hivemind and scattered across the universe, each of them living higher-dimensional constructs, tesseracts existing beyond the fabric of space and time, only anchored to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LordTracer]

The entirety of Amalgam Comics should be deleted tbh

I’ll go through the verse page and grab a list of things to be deleted

 

[Confluctor]

I have a question, shouldn't pages like these be under civilisation profiles rather than character profiles?

Mindless Ones (Marvel)

The Mindless Ones were created by Plokta as a way of slowing the expanding empires of rivals, they were virtually unstoppable engines of destruction; when a rival was deemed to be becoming too powerful, Plokta would let the Mindless Ones loose in the rival's realm, tying up the rival's resources...

vsbattles.fandom.com

(Obviously not asking to get this deleted, it's just I always had questions about how we handle a group like this)

 

[Confluctor]

The entirety of Amalgam Comics should be deleted tbh

100% agreed

I’ll go through the verse page and grab a list of things to be deleted

Sounds good.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I see nothing wrong with the Amalgam profiles tbh, even if they stem from a pretty wonky crossover.

This, I don't get, though...

 

[Confluctor]

The problem is lack of scans, and the ap for the first part is... Well, a bit weird.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think this is a fair addition.

 

[LordTracer]

• The Infinites (5 appearances)
• Edifice Rex (7 appearances)
• Air-Walker (17 appearances)
• Itsy-Bitsy (6 appearances)
• Monster Android (14 appearances)
• Lash (19 appearances)
• Firepower (13 appearances)
• The Xenophage (3 appearances)
• Superior Silk (9 appearances)
• Shadowknight (16 appearances)
• Iron Cross (15 appearances)

Here’s everyone I found.

 

[LordTracer]

I see nothing wrong with the Amalgam profiles tbh, even if they stem from a pretty wonky crossover.

Uh… have you looked at Thanoseid? It’s pretty bad.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Uh… have you looked at Thanoseid? It’s pretty bad.

Well it lacks a Summary but other than that, it's not too different from other profiles I've seen.

 

[Drio_The_God]

I agree with the new rules.

 

[Confluctor]

• The Infinites (5 appearances)
• Edifice Rex (7 appearances)
• Air-Walker (17 appearances)
• Itsy-Bitsy (6 appearances)
• Monster Android (14 appearances)
• Lash (19 appearances)
• Firepower (13 appearances)
• The Xenophage (3 appearances)
• Superior Silk (9 appearances)
• Shadowknight (16 appearances)
• Iron Cross (15 appearances)

Here’s everyone I found.

I think Impress said she might need firepower and one more for some scaling for one of the profiles, but let's see what she says.


Tho I agree, most of them should be gone. Some are pretty poor quality too.

 

[Newendigo]

Character profiles who serve a scaling purpose should definetly be allowed, yeah.

As for characters like Galacta and Venom The End, I thought we were okay with them as long as they were unique enough for alt-vers of canon characters?

 

[Firestorm808]

Seems okay, but how should we factor overall franchise significance?

 

[Tllmbrg]

I have a question, shouldn't pages like these be under civilisation profiles rather than character profiles?

Mindless Ones (Marvel)

The Mindless Ones were created by Plokta as a way of slowing the expanding empires of rivals, they were virtually unstoppable engines of destruction; when a rival was deemed to be becoming too powerful, Plokta would let the Mindless Ones loose in the rival's realm, tying up the rival's resources...

vsbattles.fandom.com

They’re not really a civ, just a race that’s used by other villains so meh

 

[Tllmbrg]

I think Impress said she might need firepower and one more for some scaling for one of the profiles, but let's see what she says.


Tho I agree, most of them should be gone. Some are pretty poor quality too.

Rip Iron Cross, btw I don’t agree with the rule but alas I’m outvoted

 

[Confluctor]

In the original thread, I proposed that if a page is well done, good justification + scans, we should keep it. But not sure if others will accept it.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah personally I think what should matter in the end is if the page is well made and can be updated in case of massive CRTs that apply to mahor swats of the verse

 

[The_Impress]

The Infinites (5 appearances)

• Edifice Rex (7 appearances)
• Air-Walker (17 appearances)
• Itsy-Bitsy (6 appearances)
• Monster Android (14 appearances)
• Lash (19 appearances)
• Firepower (13 appearances)
• The Xenophage (3 appearances)
• Superior Silk (9 appearances)
• Shadowknight (16 appearances)
• Iron Cross (15 appearances)

Here’s everyone I found.

Lash should likely stay because he was very prominently adapted in AoS, and Monster Android and Firepower I need for scaling purposes.

And this one too imo

Venom (Venom: The End)

The eldritch being known as Venom was once only one of the countless of parasitic entities splintered from the ancient Klyntar hivemind and scattered across the universe, each of them living higher-dimensional constructs, tesseracts existing beyond the fabric of space and time, only anchored to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Alternative continuities unaffecting Prime Universe shouldn't go through this rule imo.

Yah personally I think what should matter in the end is if the page is well made and can be updated in case of massive CRTs that apply to mahor swats of the verse

Mate you straight up don't input on versewides if they don't fancy you, tf are you on about.

---

In terms of DC-Equivalent revision, we have tried discussing treating net appearances across all reboots (Golden Age + Pre-Crisis + Post-Crisis + Post-Flashpoint + Rebirth) to determine file relevance, with the same thresholds required.

 

[The_Impress]

Seems okay, but how should we factor overall franchise significance?

Typically being a prominent antagonist in an event, or in a separate media which itself was very relevant.

Though this is case-by-case and imo should be LEFT case by case.

Again, this standard isn't supposed to be tough to pass, genuinely if you can't even hit these basic requirements you shouldn't have a page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Mate you straight up don't input on versewides if they don't fancy you, tf are you on about.

Cuz

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Apologies if I'm late to the party.

I certainly agree with this. We need a baseline threshold for when a character stemming from Marvel or DC so that we don't get flooded with every new character who appears. Same thing with transformations.

That being said, what do we do with transformations that are well known? Like if a character gets the Uni-Power for a mini-series and holds onto it for five issues? Would that be enough for a key or would we need more? My main point with this is that a lot of forms are simply these temporary powerups that we have little information on except that they're stronger than normal (EX: Iron Man with the Uru suit). There's little info, it lasts for a short period of time and is not worth considering. Except if the form is from an established power source that we know the limits and capabilities of, should that warrant more consideration?

I'm simply just trying to get elaboration here so that when we have to have these talks with people in CRTs we can give more reasoning for accepting or denying the proposals.

 

[The_Impress]

That's under notability clause, no? It's case-by-case :v

 

[Antvasima]

So do we have sufficient input to apply this rule?

We need to slightly rewrite it so it specified which types of characters that can be featured from Marvel and which from DC Comics though.

 

[Confluctor]

Alternative continuities unaffecting Prime Universe shouldn't go through this rule imo.

Ah... That seems agreeable. Age of Sentry file coming heh


What about Ultimate Marvel? That's also unaffected by this rule?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that most alternate timeline versions of characters should also be required to have a reasonably high number of appearances as a minimum to be listed, unless they are very self-evident regarding their statistics.

 

[The_Impress]

I think not.

Main reason for me at least, for having these rules, is lessening bulk in an ongoing verse with shifty stats. Stuff like Ultimate Marvel, MAX, or Noir, these don't have this problem at all, since their runs have ended. So I don't see why they should go through the same scrutiny as Prime

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am mainly concerned that we will get lots of non-prominent alternative timeline characters that are assumed to somehow automatically be as powerful as their main canon counterparts, but maybe that is already covered by other rules?

 

[Confluctor]

I am not sure if its covered by other rules, but it seems like no brainers to me. It should be obvious not to scale people from different universes, unless shown otherwise. But I guess adding a new rule to it won't hurt anyone.

 

[The_Impress]

Well, I am mainly concerned that we will get lots of non-prominent alternative timeline characters that are assumed to somehow automatically be as powerful as their main canon counterparts, but maybe that is already covered by other rules?

Yeah I think it is just fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should I unlock our Marvel and DC Comics rules page for you to edit then?