Marvel Comics: Vision AP Speed and Dura Revamp

[KingTempest]

Now although I'm not a comichead nor am I someone who consistently reads or scales comics on any platform or level, I'm a person who hates "unknowns" for relevant characters.
This guy is one of em.

Now I understand the rules here on Marvel and DC comic characters, so I found a respect thread on Universe-616 Vision to discuss his feats shown to find a consistent measurement for his strength level, which I personally found to range from 5-B to 3-C and MFTL+

For Attack Potency

1. Managed to harm Wonder Man with a punch (5-B); Avengers V3 #23
2. Rammed into and combatted Unworthy Thor (No current key, but assuming from the characters that scale to him, it's 5-B); Axis #1
3. While missing an arm, flies Ultron Pym through a building and breaks part of his face with a punch (5-B, possibly 3-C); Rage of Ultron
4. Same as above but to Ultron-5 (5-B, possibly 3-C); Avengers V1 #67
5. Freed War-Machine from Phoenix (5-B); Secret Avengers V1 #26
6. Alongside others, jumped Phoenix Force Namor (5-B); AvX #8
7. Could combat Silver-Surfer, who said that Vision's strength is nearly comparable to his own (5-B, likely 3-C); Avengers V1 #116
8. Fights Ultron, again (5-B, possibly 3-C); Avengers V1 #135
9. Sends Wonder Man flying with a punch, then later combats him (5-B); Avengers V1 #158
10. By dropping from a mile high at maximum density, Vision knocks out a weakened Count Nefaria (5-B); Avengers V1 #166
11. Decapitates a Doombot (At least 5-B); Avengers V1 #333
12. One shot Jane Foster (5-B, possibly 3-C); Vision #11
13. One shot Nova (5-B); Vision #11
14. Sends Wonder Man flying into a wall, then causes Wonder Man to cry out in pain (5-B); Avengers V1 #158
15. Takes out an Ultron Vision with his force beams (5-B, possibly 3-C); Rage of Ultron
16. Blasts Pym Ultron in the face with his beams (5-B, possibly 3-C); Rage of Ultron
17. Sends Jane Foster flying (5-B, possibly 3-C); Vision #11
18. Beam clashes with Mark 51 Iron Man's repulsor (5-B); All-New, All-Different Avengers #6
19. One-shots Mark 51 Iron Man (5-B); Vision #11

For Durability

1. No-sells Moonstone's energy blast (5-B); Avengers V3 #12
2. No-sells Thundra's chain (Thundra apparently fought the Monster Android; 5-B); Avengers V3 #17
3. Takes a close range blast from Ultron (5-B, possibly 3-C); Avengers V3 #22
4. Takes a punch from Count Nefaria, who is stronger than Thor (5-B); Avengers V3 #33
5. Super-dense form is unaffected by the attacks of several Hulks (5-B); Avengers V3 #39
6. Amplifies his density a thousand fold to protect from an attack from an extra-powerful She-Hulk (5-B, possibly 3-C); Avengers V3 #68
7. Takes a blow to the head from Ultron-5 and is merely stunned (5-B); Avengers V1 #57
8. Takes a blitz from UltronThor and UltronVision, then takes a beating from UltronThor and UltronVision (5-B, possibly 3-C); Rage of Ultron
9. Takes a vicious beating from Pym Ultron but remains conscious (5-B, possibly 3-C); Rage of Ultron
10. Takes an ionic blast from Ultron-6 (5-B, possibly 3-C); Avengers V1 #67
11. Takes a blast from Phoenix Force Namor (5-B); AvX #8
12. Tanks a strike from Surfer's board and is unaffected by lava (5-B, likely 3-C); Avengers V1 #116
13. Wonder Man injures his fist on Vision's body (5-B); Avengers V1 #132
14. Takes several hits from Ultron (5-B, possibly 3-C); Avengers V1 #135
15. Easily deals with Hyperion's attacks (5-B); Avengers V1 #147
16. Trades blows with Wonder Man (5-B); Avengers V1 #158
17. No-sells a Doombot's blasts (At least 5-B); Avengers V1 #332
18. Takes a punch from Hercules (5-B); Avengers V1 #362
19. Unaffected by Annihilus' energy beams (5-B); All-New, All-Different Avengers #12

For Speed

1. Counters Nova's blitz (MFTL+); Vision #11
2. Can keep up with all of the MFTL+ people above like Count Nefaria, Jane Foster, Nova, Ultron, Silver Surfer, and more.

My proposal is that Vision gets a replaced rating.
Instead of this

Attack Potency: Unknown. Intangibility and Density Control in combination provide a degree of Durability Negation.

His profile should add this (references will be added when/if it gets accepted)

Attack Potency: Planet Level, likely Galaxy Level (Is consistently shown to be comparable, if not superior, to other fighters of this level like Wonder Man, Nova, Doombots, Model 51 Iron Man, Unworthy Thor, and varying versions of Ultron. Alongside other fighters, he jumped Phoenix Force Namor. Silver Surfer said that Vision's strength is nearly comparable to his own), higher with Density Shifting (Can alter his density to enhance his strength)

His speed section (wtf is this)

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions (Faster than Captain America). Speed of Light attack speed with eye beams (Can channel limited amounts of solar energy back through the gem on his forehead at will, creating a narrow hot beam of infrared and microwave radiation)

Turned to this

Speed: Massively FTL+ combat speed and reactions (Capable of keeping up with Count Nefaria, Jane Foster, Nova, Ultron, Silver Surfer, and more)

And his durability section

Durability: Unknown, Intangibility makes him very difficult to kill,

Turned to this

Durability: Planet Level, likely Galaxy Level (Repeatedly withstood and no-sold hits from the likes of Wonder Man, Hercules, Moonstone, Phoenix Force Namor, Doombots, and varying versions of Ultron), higher with Density Shifting (Can alter his density to enhance his durability. Has taken hits from the likes of a berserk She-Hulk)

 

[Excellence616]

agree

 

[Eseseso]

EASY agree, my man King is rocking as usual!

 

[LordTracer]

This looks pretty good, although knocking out a weakened Count Nefaria isn’t a great feat, I would leave that out of his AP justification.

 

[StekFence]

Agreed

 

[KingTempest]

This looks pretty good, although knocking out a weakened Count Nefaria isn’t a great feat, I would leave that out of his AP justification.

Thanks

With this being said, an issue resides with the "3-C at peak" dudes and others

Vision's most consistent scaling is between him and Ultron
Ultron is
At least 5-B, likely 3-C

But he scales to Silver Surfer and Jane Foster as well, with a direct statement of power close to Surfer's
Those guys are
5-B, 3-C at peak

So is he scaling to straight 3-C, or is 5-B, likely 3-C the wave?

 

[Excellence616]

So is he scaling to straight 3-C

It should be this.

 

[KingTempest]

It should be this.

idk, he scales to a lot of consistently 5-B people as well (Wonder Man). Don't think it's wise to throw him up there

 

[LordTracer]

Thanks

With this being said, an issue resides with the "3-C at peak" dudes and others

Vision's most consistent scaling is between him and Ultron
Ultron is
At least 5-B, likely 3-C

But he scales to Silver Surfer and Jane Foster as well, with a direct statement of power close to Surfer's
Those guys are
5-B, 3-C at peak

So is he scaling to straight 3-C, or is 5-B, likely 3-C the wave?

I would just go with 5-B, likely 3-C since that’s what Ultron is and quite a few 5-Bs can contend with Vision.

 

[Excellence616]

I would just go with 5-B, likely 3-C since that’s what Ultron is and quite a few 5-Bs can contend with Vision.

Oh I see

 

[Antvasima]

Vision is usually treated as a little bit weaker than Wonder Man, so I am personally fine with a 5-B statistic for him, in lack of better options.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Vision is usually treated as a little bit weaker than Wonder Man, so I am personally fine with a 5-B statistic for him, in lack of better options.

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @LordTracer @Maverick_Zero_X

What do you think about this?

 

[LordTracer]

I already gave my thoughts on Vision’s tiering.

I would just go with 5-B, likely 3-C since that’s what Ultron is and quite a few 5-Bs can contend with Vision.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with 5-B, likely 3-C. That Unknown had no reason to stay there for as long as it did...

 

[Eficiente]

Pym Ultron in Rage of Ultron could fight evenly with Falcon and was tagged by Eros/Starfox, which defeated him, it's likely that the fusion Vision forced him to be in weakened him by messing with his control over his body (He faked being helpless and in pain due to it, but the only fake part about it might have only been his inability to bite back). By that logic Vision Ultron would also be less powerful, if Vision is more powerful than Pym.

I only disagree with 3-C.

 

[Eficiente]

Also, I heard someone once saying about Vision's tier that he got many updates/upgrades across the years. Do we have any information on that?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I still think that a straight 5-B would be fine. It doesn't make sense for Vision to have higher punching statistics than Wonder Man.

 

[KingTempest]

When he’s stated to be close in strength to 3-C Silver Surfer???

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also Vision fights Ultron like, a lot. it'd be stupid to not make him 5-B, possibly 3-C at least

 

[Antvasima]

When he’s stated to be close in strength to 3-C Silver Surfer???

The only time they fought that I remember was back in the mid 1970s Defenders/Avengers "war", when the Silver Surfer was far less powerful than currently, and even though all of the matchup participants had their power levels evened out as usual, the Silver Surfer still easily won as far as I recall.

Generally, Vision is treated as a bit physically weaker than Wonder Man in terms of punching power, and he is officially "class 50" or "class 75" to Wonder Man's "class 95" or "class 100". However, by increasing his density to its maximum and dropping from orbit, he has legitimately even damaged Count Nefaria, so it isn't entirely consistently handled.

 

[Antvasima]

Also Vision fights Ultron like, a lot. it'd be stupid to not make him 5-B, possibly 3-C at least

He has never remotely damaged pure adamantium Ultron in the comic books as far as I recall.

 

[DaReaperMan]

He has never remotely damaged pure adamantium Ultron in the comic books as far as I recall.

here is Ultron's current profile. if you'll direct yourself to the OP, Vision has fought the first key of Ultron numerous times, and that key is rated as 5-B, likely 3-C, in fact, going off the OP, Vision has fought Ultron more than he's fought Wonder Man!

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I didn't notice any scans of The Vision fighting Ultron on even grounds. Can you clarify please?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hmm. I didn't notice any scans of The Vision fighting Ultron on even grounds. Can you clarify please?

one doesn't have to fight Ultron evenly, he just needs to fight(And damage/knock around) and take hits from Ultron and not be one-shot or stomped, which is why it's a POSSIBLY 3-C, not a LIKELY 3-C like Ultron is rated

one! Ah Ah Ah! Two!(Ultron Vision) Ah Ah Ah! Three! Ah Ah Ah! Four! Ah Ah Ah! Five! Ah Ah Ah! okat this grows tiring...

SMMMACK!

Blast!

Here's Wonder Man hurting his fist on Vision's chest

Damaging Ultron-5, just, uh, read the OP for the rest of the 5-B/3-C scaling

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that was Legion of the Unwilling Wonder Man, before he was legitimately resurrected the first time. He was far less powerful back then.

Also, in your listed scans from the most recent Ultron/Vision fight, even Sabretooth was able to cause even more damage than the Vision did.

However, some of the other scans seem legitimate, so I suppose that an "At least 5-B, possibly/likely 3-C" tier seems reasonable then, in lack of better options.

Also, the Silver Surfer fight seems to be a plot-induced stupidity outlier, and the Surfer was far less powerful back then, so I would prefer if it is not mentioned as an attack potency justification.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, I know some of the scans were likely not too usable, but Vision is pretty consistently able to damage and take hits from, albeit is still inferior to, Ultron, like, a stupid amount of fights between the two

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I suppose that it is fine then, but only use the most reliable scaling please.

 

[Eficiente]

one!

I went over this.

Two!(Ultron Vision)

He's not taking out Ultron Vision (Vision fused with Ultron), that's a minion Ultron made to counter Vision. It would be at Vision's level at best, not Ultron's.

Three!

I went over this.

Four!

I really doubt the killing intent there; Ultron's an emotionally unstable dude who doesn't know how he feels and what he wants sometimes. Before the blast Vision was calming him down, proposing good and positive things to him while Ultron was thinking about it. Ultron rejected it at the end, but that doesn't mean he aimed to kill Vision, it could have easily been a bully attack just to harm him, hence Ultron had bs to say after it, which he likely wanted Vision to listen.

Five!

He got one starting attack and then got beat up, needing to do something else to deal with that minion. I don't use the no-sell term that may as well have happened here as that minion had no reaction beyond being moved.

What happened right after that is that Sabretooth came and ripped apart that minion, one-shotting it. His claws may scale to Herald level, but this is unlike anything they should be capable of as this isn't what Wolverine's claws can do at all. So the drone wasn't as strong as a peak Thor.

SMMMACK!

Solid.

Blast!

Ultron turned into a ship and in doing so blasted some energy at Vision. This could have been a side effect, Vision bragged about how Ultron couldn't land blows and then Ultron did something that would be either too fast or too different from his common attacks.

Here's Wonder Man hurting his fist on Vision's chest

This is not how you're portraying it, Vision is using his powers to increase his durability, being "hard as diamond" as he says. This can't be 3-C at all as a human-sized diamond isn't that durable, it's just one of Marvel's silly anti-feats; It's one of those cases where a character is scaling to other character in a story where they get anti-feats far lower than the stats we give them.

Damaging Ultron-5

He made himself as hard as diamond again for this.

----

One shot Jane Foster (5-B, possibly 3-C); Vision #11

This one needs its context, which no one ever cares about. The Avengers and Vision were going easy on each other because they were not enemies, they were still friends but Vision had a criminal whim, and he was very determined and pissed about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente. So would "5-B, 3-C by increasing his density to the maximum and falling from the upper atmosphere" be appropriate statistics for The Vision then?

 

[Excellence616]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente. So would "5-B, 3-C by increasing his density to the maximum and falling from the upper atmosphere" be appropriate statistics for The Vision then?

Yes

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That can probably be applied then, but we should probably wait a bit for further input.

@Eficiente @KingTempest @LordTracer

 

[Eficiente]

Sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente. So would "5-B, 3-C by increasing his density to the maximum and falling from the upper atmosphere" be appropriate statistics for The Vision then?

Yes

Sure.

Thank you for the replies.

Is that fine with the other staff members here as well?

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Bump, I agree with the proposed

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-vision-ap-speed-and-dura-revamp.144285/post-5220951

 

[Vasco]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente. So would "5-B, 3-C by increasing his density to the maximum and falling from the upper atmosphere" be appropriate statistics for The Vision then?

I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input.

 

[Vasco]

Anytime

 

[Qawsedf234]

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

I guess it works.