Marvel Comics - Jean and the Phoenix

[Comicgyal]

Hello, this will be a relatively short CRT (gods willing)

Anyways, Jean has a form known as the White Phoenix of the Crown. In this form she has complete control over the Phoenix, which allows her to:

Take Phoenix fragments from other avatars. (Uncanny X-Men issue 517. X-Men Kingbreaker issue 4. AvX issue 12.)

She has full control over the White Hot Room, and can even stop other avatars from entering. Phoenix says that Jean is the perfect host.

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That’s just to catch everyone up to speed. What I’m proposing, is that Jean Greys profile (Her White Phoenix portion) be completely identical to the Phoenix’s profile. She is the complete and perfect form of the Phoenix, and should share all the qualities that the Phoenix does.

This relates to hax, LS, SS, Speed, etc. all across the board.

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Edit: The proposed changes are for her eighth Multiverse WPOTC key.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we would need some very good proof for it being the multiversal incarnation.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Alonik @Gasper @Chariot190 @Confluctor

Would any of you be willing to offer input here please?

 

[Firestorm808]

What was the cause of splitting White Phoenix of the Crown and Eighth Multiverse WPotC? Was there an event or a change made?

 

[Confluctor]

What was the cause of splitting White Phoenix of the Crown and Eighth Multiverse WPotC? Was there an event or a change made?

Yes, current phoenix scales wayy higher

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, current phoenix scales wayy higher

Please elaborate regarding what you mean. We already give the multiversal Phoenix Force enormously higher statistics than it has ever demonstrated.

 

[Confluctor]

Please elaborate regarding what you mean. We already give the multiversal Phoenix Force enormously higher statistics than it has ever demonstrated.

Cause new cosmology, which is bigger than the 7th

 

[Antvasima]

Aren't we supposed to split the cosmologies in some manner rather than stack them on top of each other, and only have the OAA scale from all of them? I thought that is what was agreed previously in Impress' old revision thread, or do I misremember?

 

[Confluctor]

I mean virtually no work has been done for it because of some issues. And aside from alnoik (spelling?) no one else has put any work into it. I did a bit but gave up long ago and lost the Imgur album.

So that split won't affect the stuff rn. Only when it actually comes out and whatnot.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I would greatly appreciate if you and others continue to work on it in any case.

 

[Comicgyal]

What would the split entail for multiversal abstracts like the Phoenix?

 

[Comicgyal]

Well, we would need some very good proof for it being the multiversal incarnation.

WPOTC is the Phoenix in its entirety, which would be its multiversal incarnation. (If I’m understanding what you mean by multiversal incarnation.)

 

[Confluctor]

What would the split entail for multiversal abstracts like the Phoenix?

Have a high and low end based on cosmology. I.e. 1c to 1a for eight. (Not the correct tiering but its an example

 

[Comicgyal]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't it better if we continue in the other Phoenix thread instead?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/phoenix-force-downgrade-and-revision-for-the-hosts.120295/

 

[Confluctor]

No, totally different things

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, this is about giving Jean all of the multiversal Phoenix stats. I don’t think we need a lot of staff approval here honestly, it’s fairly straightforward (imo)

 

[Antvasima]

Does she have any feats remotely approaching a multiversal scale of power?

Also, there was a scene in which Grant Morrison literally portrayed her as just one in a crowd of different Phoenix hosts if I remember correctly.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Also, there was a scene in which Grant Morrison literally portrayed her as just one in a crowd of different Phoenix hosts if I remember correctly.

He portrayed her as the one and only White Phoenix Of the Crown... Not just as one of all these Phoenix Hosts....

 

[Firestorm808]

I guess we separate the keys based on the introduction of the "Eighth multiverse"

 

[Antvasima]

He portrayed her as the one and only White Phoenix Of the Crown... Not just as one of all these Phoenix Hosts....

But wasn't there a legion of Phoenix host in his run?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

But wasn't there a legion of Phoenix host in his run?

In the WHR yes they were shown however the Phoenix Consciouness refers to Jean as the one and only White Phoenix Of the Crown. Also, nowadays it has been explained that each Phoenix Host lives a piece of him/her in the WHR.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody verify please?

 

[Comicgyal]

She has full control over the White Hot Room

Okay. Can somebody verify please?

I showed it there, the Phoenix calls Jean the perfect host because she’s the white Phoenix. If that’s what you’re asking.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but she still seemed to be presented as just one in a crowd of hosts, not as the entirety of the Phoenix Force itself.

 

[Comicgyal]

I had to take a break, but I’m back.

Okay, but she still seemed to be presented as just one in a crowd of hosts, not as the entirety of the Phoenix Force itself.

This is only because she had to do Phoenix work. Her being among the other hosts doesn’t matter much, as she still has the entire force empowering her.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please elaborate regarding how this was proven exactly.

 

[Comicgyal]

I can give a few examples.
In The Return of Jean Grey #5, Phoenix tells Jean that as the White Phoenix of the Crown they can transcend even the WHR. This is the home of the Phoenix, and the implications of this are massive.

Scott in his Phoenix state was unable to enter due to Jean’s intervention as the White Phoenix, meaning her rule over the realm is absolute.

Finally, Phoenix calls Jean Grey the Perfect Host, the Perfect Vessel. That her power with the Phoenix is unmatched. Jean then showcases that she’s in control of the WHR just because she’s jean grey, despite not being the crown yet.

Jean Grey has perfect control of the Phoenix and her merging with it is complete, so much so, that she’s even able to use Phoenix abilities despite not having a fragment. Phoenix says that the two of them are one, and Jean days later they’ll go back to the White Hot Room. (Phoenix endsong #5)

So.. yeah. Jean is all of the Phoenix, and should scale to everything that the Phoenix scales to. This is already established on her profile, but she’s just missing some portions like LS, Speed, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that any of that seems like good evidence for that she wields anywhere near a tier 1-A multiversal scale of power, as she has not even displayed anywhere near the power level that we have assigned the universal incarnation.

 

[Comicgyal]

White Phoenix not showcasing feats of her lesser entity is understandable, as she’s no longer being directly involved with certain events. She’s beyond them, and all of the other abstracts. The Beyonders confirmed that they use the WHR to power their engines, regarded it as a plane of existence higher than them, and pre retcon Beyonder noted that it’s too dangerous for even him up there.

The Phoenix has been getting consistent statements, and cosmology placements far above the other characters. So despite not going out of her way to do something large scale (as it would make no sense plot wise, considering the type of abstract she is) she has enough statements of her power.

Unless you want to call into question the legitimacy of every single statement made about Phoenix and the WHR, her tier 1 scaling is legit, and Jean would have to scale to it since she is that Phoenix.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think comicgyal makes more sense here, but references for all these scans would be appreciated.

 

[Comicgyal]

White Phoenix not showcasing feats of her lesser entity is understandable, as she’s no longer being directly involved with certain events. She’s beyond them, and all of the other abstracts. The Beyonders confirmed that they use the WHR to power their engines, regarded it as a plane of existence higher than them, and pre retcon Beyonder noted that it’s too dangerous for even him up there.

Defenders Beyond (2022) #2

Finally, Phoenix calls Jean Grey the Perfect Host, the Perfect Vessel. That her power with the Phoenix is unmatched. Jean then showcases that she’s in control of the WHR just because she’s jean grey, despite not being the crown yet.

Jean Grey #10


The ones I didn’t reference.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we still either need explicit statements that Jean is one with the complete multiversal incarnation of the Phoenix, not just the universal one, or an explicit demonstration of power on that scale. Otherwise your interpretations do not seem reliable at all. My apologies.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we still either need explicit statements that Jean is one with the complete multiversal incarnation of the Phoenix, not just the universal one, or an explicit demonstration of power on that scale. Otherwise your interpretations do not seem reliable at all. My apologies.

@Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Sandman31 @Pain_to12

What do you think about this?

 

[Comicgyal]

Well, we still either need explicit statements that Jean is one with the complete multiversal incarnation of the Phoenix, not just the universal one, or an explicit demonstration of power on that scale. Otherwise your interpretations do not seem reliable at all. My apologies.

When the Phoenix tells Jean, that they can transcend the WHR, there is no possible way that it’s referencing the universal incarnation. (the return of jean grey #5)

Jean also says that when they get to the WHR, all their pieces will be together. Meaning that they’d be the totality of all fragments, since the Phoenix exists in fragmented form in the universal incarnation. So the two of them would be all fragments and more, a complete being as Phoenix again states. (Phoenix endsong #5)

Regardless of any of that, Phoenix says that her and Jean can transcend the WHR in her White Phoenix state. So she’d scale.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that you are imposing your own interpretations on a coherent picture that never existed with so many mostly uninformed writers who are doing their own interpretations and largely do not even subscribe to The Phoenix Force being a single multiversal entity.

My apologies, but extraordinary claims, such as a ridiculously high above universal scale 1-A tier, need extraordinary concrete evidence, not just to be presented in an articulate manner that feels good or sounds compelling, so I firmly reject this unless you can prove that this particular timeline's incarnation of Jean Grey is somehow a single multiversal singularity spanning not just all universes but all higher dimensions as well, and can wield power of that scale.

 

[Comicgyal]

I still think that you are imposing your own interpretations on a coherent picture that never existed with so many mostly uninformed writers who are doing their own interpretations and largely do not even subscribe to The Phoenix Force being a single multiversal entity.

this is simply untrue. Ever since the Phoenix was introduced it was regarded as a multiversal entity, that like other abstracts, use avatars to interact with lower realms.

In one of its very first showings, it’s regarded as an infinite being that’s beyond reality. The only way she’s talking to jean in this instance, is by using Jean’s consciousness. (classic X-men 1986; #8) The fragments that are used are the universal forms, but anything more than a fragment is now it’s Multiversal incarnation.

We know this is true, since in Defenders Beyond (2022) #2, the form that appears to the Defenders when they travel to the WHR is it in its primal state. Which means that Jean when merged with the entirety of the Phoenix, is Jean encompassing this primal state of being that is native to the Phoenix. This is no alternative interpretation or head canon, it is stated multiple times that the Phoenix and Jean grey are one being. (Phoenix endsong #5)

“I came back only because you wanted it. You wanted to feel it again, you wanted to understand. In this world.”

Phoenix says “this world”, because as the Phoenix explained to jean when they first met, she is beyond their reality. The only way that she is able to experience things, is by lowering itself down to universal fragments.

My apologies, but extraordinary claims, such as a ridiculously high above universal scale 1-A tier, need extraordinary concrete evidence, not just to be presented in an articulate manner that feels good or sounds compelling, so I firmly reject this unless you can prove that this particular timeline's incarnation of Jean Grey is somehow a single multiversal singularity spanning not just all universes but all higher dimensions as well, and can wield power of that scale.

I’ve already proven that from Phoenix’s own admission, that as White Phoenix she can transcend the WHR which is a higher dimension. Truthfully that’s the only evidence needed. An admission like that from the entity in question is sufficient enough.

There is only one white Phoenix of the crown, and that is Jean grey. Even when Scott summers had a Phoenix fragment, jean still existed in the White Hot Room (a higher reality) as that Multiversal entity you were referencing. It’s impossible for jean to embody the universal variant of the Phoenix, in the same reality as Scott, and the exact same time.

Multiple characters have already admitted the White Hot Room is a realm beyond them, that’s higher than their own, such as the Beyonders. So if the Phoenix says that Jean can transcend that, and if Jean shows that she can manipulate the WHR at will, what else is needed?

Don’t mix up universal fragments and their inconsistencies, with a form of the Phoenix that is not.

 

[Antvasima]

The universal incarnations of the Phoenix very much are infinite, but again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you have not remotely provided that for Jean Grey reaching a scale of power beyond uncountably infinite degrees of infinity. Nothing that you say will ever convince me of that claim except for extremely concrete evidence, no matter how eloquently you word your speculation, interpretations, and wishful thinking.

My apologies for being blunt, but you should either simply list your matter-of-fact evidence in an organised and schematic completely rational/robotic manner without any interpretation or distortion whatsoever involved, or stop wasting my time in this regard. I am extremely busy, and do not have the time available to humour you any further, so nothing that you otherwise say or do here will gain any results.

Also, Al Ewing tends to retcon a lot, and use completely irrationally incoherent power levels to a possibly unmatched degree within Marvel Comics lore, so he is usually not a reliable gauge either.

 

[Comicgyal]

Simply repeating that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence doesn’t amount to much, and is also not a entirely true. I don’t need to show a scan of Jean doing something like, destroying eternity or the beyonders, when I have multiple character statements from those same characters I mentioned that support my claim.

It’s not a matter of my evidence, you simply cannot get behind the suggestions, as it wouldn’t fit into your idea of the cosmology. You personally do not have to stay here, feel free to tag other staff that are more open minded, and would be willing to discuss it respectfully.

It has already been accepted that the Phoenix reaches a higher scale of power, and due to Jean’s relation to the Phoenix she scales as well. I made this thread in order to fix her profile more, that’s all really.

 

[Antvasima]

My mention of our general standards for higher tiers are entirely legitimate, and, again, unless we have explicit unambigious statements that Jean has reached oneness with the entirety of the full multiversal incarnation of The Phoenix Force, with good rationales for why she would be a beyond uncountably infinite degrees of infinity more powerful than all other hosts, when the greatest feat that we ever saw her perform was just to rewrite a timeline, your in my view very reaching interpretations of ridiculously exaggerated power levels for this character that you really like, do not seem to hold, no matter how eloquently you try to package your end objective.

And Al Ewing tends to mix the universal and multiversal perspectives in a way that does not separate them in a distinguishable manner, despite the ridiculously divergent scale between them, and regularly have tier 8-C or tier 5-B characters beat up tier 1-A characters, so it is near impossible to make any rational powerscaling sense of his stories.

In any case, I have officially rejected this on high staff authority, unless you inform me about evidence that clearly proves what you want to apply in a very objective, rational, and non-subjective manner, without any smooth verbal packaging involved. I strongly dislike when I feel like I am being manipulated by a politician.