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Marvel Comics - Jean and the Phoenix

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So despite the Phoenix itself stating that the two have merged completely, and are able to transcend to a higher plane together, you will still question whether they’ve achieved oneness? What about the scans that I have shown were ambiguous? You haven’t attacked them individually, but instead grouped them all together without addressing what they’re even saying.

I can definitely make a new thread I guess, but until then, feel free to close this one unless the staff you mentioned earlier want to reply.
 
I'm not the most knowledgeable on comic standards or Marvel in particular, but giving 1-A to a character with no personal feats on that level simply due to association with a power close to that level is a bit dubious to accept outright. Methinks that, given the context and idea of her being part of this power rather than the power itself, outright giving her 1-A seems like a large jump from Tier 2.

Maybe an "At least (x), possibly far higher" or similar wording could work? Something that embraces and addresses the ambiguity.
 
My question to you for that would be, do you think that regular Phoenix users are associated with that power in the same way that Jean is?

I personally believe that the major difference between regular Force users and Jean Grey, is that Jean is able to manipulate the Force inside of them, and is capable of using the Force without actively it being inside of her, if that makes sense to you.

Also, in her solo run, Jean shows us that she’s able to manipulate the WHR freely, and calls it her own domain. Would that not be a substantial enough feat?

This is disregarding the Phoenix’s, and abstracts other statements about her power as White Phoenix.
 
In my thread about this topic previously, other knowledgeable Marvel staff, and general staff were in agreement of these changes. This thread isn’t about whether she scales to the feats, but if I can adjust her LS, SS, and Speed to make her profile fit with the accepted scaling, and not just her tier.
 
Well, my overall problem with this is that from my understanding you seem to mix and match snippets from different stories by different writers, usually with limited knowledge of what the others were doing, to argue that a character with a single Low 2-C feat is tier 1-A, even though there haven't even been any mentions of her being fused with the entirety of a multiversal entity, much less not simply being superior to the other Phoenix Force hosts, but transcending all of them combined by an uncountably infinite amount of degrees of infinity, which seems like absolutely insanely unreliable levels of wanking to me.
 
KLOL506 said:
I'm perfectly chill, I was just... kind of taken aback by Ant's comment a bit, that's all.
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I get that, and I'll watch Ant's posts as well. That's all.

Let's try to debate in good faith, okay?
 
Due to White Phoenix of the Crown being a thing prior to the re-established location of the White Hot Room, I would refrain from giving a solid 1-A to the prior appearance of the White Pheonix of the Crown form.
 
I am never a fan of using different entries of different authors to rate characters, so I can say I disagree, but currently we allow for such so
"At least X, Possibly Y (was shown to transcend cococococo)"
I mean in lack of better options, as there are no direct feats just a statement. My reason for this is because "Together we can be gods, then we can transcend this place"
1. That is actually vague
2. It has not happened yet

Also, can the OP be updated and at least be made better and concise to show the new things you said in the thread, it is better to address that way.
 
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I’ll try to be as rational as possible, but there will of course be some repeats.

First I’ll go onto explain Jean’s relation to the Phoenix, and how it differs from other hosts.

Jean first met Phoenix in Classic X-Men (1986) issue #8, and this where Phoenix first introduces itself as an infinite being that is beyond reality. The part about this that truly matters, is that Phoenix states that Jean’s original body is still alive, and that a piece of her soul fighting the gift that the Phoenix offered. Meaning that Jean did not fully merge with the entity, and is why she has on the green costume.


In Phoenix Endsong #5, it’s shown that Jean can not only forcibly remove fragments from other host (an ability never shown by any other host) But the Phoenix mentions that the two of them are one. Jean also mentions “little big people” which is what Jean of earth-15104 went through. So despite those two comics having different writers, events revolving around the White Phoenix are being acknowledged consistently. So using the different writers argument doesn’t apply here. (New X-Men 2001, TPB PART 3)

There was previous mention that Jean displays no transcendence over other avatars, but this isn’t true. In Uncanny X-Men Vol 2, #19, Scott tries to ascend to the WHR but is denied access by Jean. Not only is Jean in a higher realm than him, but is capable of keeping hosts out if she chooses. This is very consistent with other showings, like in New X-men, the other hosts are simply pieces left behind, while Jean is able to amputate an entire future. Phoenix reaffirms this in Jean Grey #11, saying that every host leaves a piece of themself in the WHR.


Now I’ll go into admissions by the Phoenix itself. In Jean Grey #11, Phoenix mentions that Jean Grey is the perfect host, the perfect vessel. Making a distinction between her, and the other Phoenix hosts that leave fragments of themselves behind.

in Phoenix Endsong #5, Phoenix says that the two of them can transcend the WHR together. Together the two of them can become “Gods.” Something that no other Phoenix host, even Hope (who became white Phoenix, but not White Phoenix of the Crown, creating further distinction between Jean and other hosts.) has showcased. Jean is the only character who can manipulate the WHR freely, even when it’s just a teenage version of herself.

When Scott meets Jean in 100th Anniversary Special: X-Men, Jean says that she’s just Phoenix, the embodiment of Eternity. Again showing that she is no simple host, she and the Phoenix are one.

As for scaling the newer showings, the WHR has always been shown to be a higher realm. In “Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #462 ; Breaking Into Comics the Marvel Way #2” as the Chaos Wave was sweeping over the Multiverse, Rachel and Jamie were able to take refuge in the WHR. I showed earlier that the Phoenix stated that it was beyond reality as well.

Ewing is simply taking what’s already been established, and elaborating further. There has been no shift in the WHR and it’s place in the cosmology at all. Even between writers, I’ve shown that events regarding the WHR, Jean and the Phoenix are very consistent.

I hope this will be sufficient, I tried to keep it as short as possible. Because again, this was already discussed and approved in a different thread.
 
Is Jean not already 1-A in her profiles? so what is the purpose of this revision?
BTW they are not the same entity jean and the phoenix force, having control over the phoenix force does not mean you are one and the same
 
Well, the issue here is that I think that there is an enormously high difference between being an infinite entity capable of rewriting timelines (tier Low 2-C) combined with reaching oneness with the universal incarnation of the Phoenix Force and greatly surpassing other hosts, compared to reaching an effing 1-A (!!!!!!!!!!!) scale of power.

After over 8 years of repeatedly dealing with them I have also turned somewhat triggered by the most overly biased variety of Marvel and DC Comics fans trying to wank their favourite characters insanely beyond anything that they have ever been implied to be capable of, and I was also systematically severely harrassed by Marvel and DC Comics fans turned into extreme trolls for several years, which hasn't remotely happened for other franchises.

However, I greatly appreciate the fans who genuinely try to strive for accuracy, and apologise if my tone turned rude, testy, suspicious, and disrespectful because of me more easily getting annoyed and tired in this area.

Also, if Jean has somehow already been accepted as having a 1-A scale of power, I seem to have arrived too late to prevent what is likely massively misleading information to be placed in our wiki. Does somebody know which staff members that allowed it to be added in the first place?
 
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Yes, this thread was to make Jean’s WPOTC attributes the same as the Phoenix. For example her stamina.

Pain_to12 said:
Is Jean not already 1-A in her profiles? so what is the purpose of this revision?
BTW they are not the same entity jean and the phoenix force, having control over the phoenix force does not mean you are one and the same
Comicgyal said:
it is stated multiple times that the Phoenix and Jean grey are one being. (Phoenix endsong #5)


I’ve already proven that from Phoenix’s own admission, that as White Phoenix she can transcend the WHR which is a higher dimension.


Also, if Jean has somehow already been accepted as having a 1-A scale of power, I seem to have arrived too late to prevent what is likely massively misleading information to be placed in our wiki. Does somebody know which staff members that allowed it to be added in the first place?
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You were on the thread since the beginning, however, staff members that were fine with the changes were;

LordTracer, AbaddonTheDissapointment, Confluctor, Ultima (He agreed on his message wall), Qawsed (They agreed with the proposition of 1-A, but suggested a likely wording) Along with dozens of other Marvel knowledgeables.

There were no disagreements, so the thread passed without much issue. Which is why I was hoping this thread wouldn’t have blown up like this, since we’re just revisiting already accepted info.

If we were to reverse it, a CRT would have to be made in opposition.
 
It is much more that I do not consider the logic anywhere near sufficient for such an extreme tier, but if the revision was passed already, there isn't much that I can do about it.

I have been tired and stressed out due to not sleeping and training enough recently though, which makes me more irritable than usual.
 
Anyway, what are the changes that you wish to apply here then, and based on what reasoning?
 
I appreciate it.
Currently, Jean has ratings that differ from the Phoenix, for example:

Stamina: Extremely high (Can use her powers for three days before tiring out)
This does not account for her Phoenix rating, only her regular form.

Her Phoenix rating should be similar to the entity, which is rated as:

Stamina: Limitless

As we know, the Phoenix is the nexus of all psionic energy which is limitless. It can draw upon that, and the life potential of the future, which is also infinite.

Jean, due to being merged with the Phoenix and is able to access its full potential, should receive these same attributes. That’s all I wish to accomplish.
 
I would also want to change her intelligence to accurately match the Phoenix, currently it’s rated as Above Average, but she would be capable of the same cosmic awareness as the Phoenix. If this isn’t agreeable, I can provide scans.

Same for her LS & SS.
 
Cosmic Awareness is not the same as transcendental logical reasoning ability. There are plenty of characters who combine it with intelligence that is not superhuman.
 
I agree with you on that front, Ant, I simply said cosmic awareness for lack of a better word.

The Phoenix’s intelligence is rated as: The Phoenix Force is an ancient cosmic being with untold knowledge on the universe and life.
(Though, I personally believe it should flat out be rated as nigh-omniscience/omniscient)

Jean expanded Mastermind’s brain across space and time, and overloaded him with the information that she naturally has. This would be in line with the description of intelligence that the Phoenix has above.
 
Well, she does not have any actual intelligence feats beyond the awareness itself, so it seems extremely unreliable to suddenly severely exaggerate her general intelligence.
 
Would that not be in line with the Phoenix’s current rating? I don’t believe the Phoenix has showcased extraordinary intelligence feats itself, but due to it being a primal force it has knowledge on all things in the universe.
 
Yes, but even if Jean can access that information it does not mean that she can suddenly outperform Mister Fantastic and Doctor Doom in terms of technology creation. It seems more like what Captain Mar-Vel could do.
 
Wait. I thought the Eighth Multiverse WPotC Key already scaled to the Full Phoenix force.

I was under the impression that the earlier White Phoenix of the Crown Key was proposed to merge with the Eighth Multiverse WPotC Key which is in turn scaled to the full Phoenix.

@Comicgyal Please revise the OP to clarify what your exact proposed revisions are.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Wait. I thought the Eighth Multiverse WPotC Key already scaled to the Full Phoenix force.

I was under the impression that the earlier White Phoenix of the Crown Key was proposed to merge with the Eighth Multiverse WPotC Key which is in turn scaled to the full Phoenix.

@Comicgyal Please revise the OP to clarify what your exact proposed revisions are.
Click to expand...
I edited it. Apologies if it was unclear, this isn’t a thread to merge the keys, but to make her eighth multiverse key have the same stats as the full PF.
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

Intelligence

Intelligence is a word that is incredibly difficult to define, as it has been used to refer to many things, such as one's ability to process information, or their capacity for logic, self-awareness, creativity, reasoning, and/or problem solving, or their knowledge and memory. In its fullest...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Intelligence apparently encompasses knowledge as well so listing the Phoenix's vast knowledge of almost everything in existence in her Intelligence section should be fine. Afaik this wouldn't entail her having scientific expertise on par with Reed or a Supergenius rating, but it still qualifies as Intelligence.
 
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