Marvel Comics Daredevil Rework

[M3X_2.0]

Greetings. After spending months reading everything Daredevil related, I have started to basically creating new profiles for the character. Huge thanks to @Chariot190 and @Milly_Rocking_Bandit for helping me with grammar and scans.

Daredevil new profile. I've collected a huge amount of feats and tried to write them as explanations for his martial skill and obviously his senses. Before we apply anything, I need to explain something that should be obvious but isn't.

Some stuff I just grabbed from Marvel Database wiki because honestly, no time to write something original.

There is still some minor work to do: Renders for Matt Murdock and black suit Daredevil; link the scans for his stamina and senses explanation sections. And I want some help with it.

Spoiler: Kingpin

Why Wilson Fisk isn't a Captain America level character and should be downgraded.

I can't belive I had to explain this. But Fisk is clearly not a Captain America level character, nowadays (Since the 90s) he is consistently a Daredevil foe, he is Daredevil nemesis. He is what Joker is to Batman. What we currently do, is completely ignoring his rivalry with Daredevil and just go with the high end because well that's what we love ain't it folks? He is currently upscaling Daredevil's Tier, and he shouldn't. Arguably their biggest fight ever had Daredevil spanking him to nearly death, and this comic, Daredevil Vol 2 Issue 50, is a "must read" according to Marvel official website. Fisk has been beaten by Matt multiple times around these years, even as recent as 2014 and even a few weeks old as seen in a, ahem, Marvel event, Devil's Reign.

Yeah, Fisk is buffy and has the stereotype of a strong and giant man, so it's easy to see him fighting high Tiers opponents, but that's not where he belongs, hell he barely had any participation or feats against those high tier dudes in the past few years. He had barely interacted with Captain America o Red Skull in what, decades? Why is he even scaling to that? It's clear as day that classic comics Fisk is way, way stronger than he is today, but it's a couple of feats X the concept of the character, who he is and where he belongs in the story.

TD;DR: Fisk is a Daredevil level character and will always be as long as he remains being his greatest opponent.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@LordTracer @Antvasima

 

[LordTracer]

I’ll take a look at this in the morning.

 

[The_Impress]

• At least Wall level+ for Daredevil is wonk as shit, he IS the 9-B+ calc, who the **** is he upscaling from? Himself?
  • I don’t think the guy with the “Iron Man level armor” really gets taken out legitimately by Daredevil? He gets slammed along the pavement because Daredevil tied him to a van, and gets KO’d off that. Don’t know why that scales to DD really. You can argue DURABILITY for him tanking a punch maybe, but like, it’s something put solely to make Daredevil sound more impressive by wording, noting said armor is featless, don’t bother.
  • He never really overpowers Punisher, is the thing, he mostly targets his vulnerable points and wins by exploiting them. In actual physicals there isn’t a difference, it’s just a skill and arguably speed advantage on Daredevil’s side
• I think the Zdarsky Daredevil render shouldn’t be used to represent Daredevil’s general look, since in that comic he is more scruffy than before, list it separately

Rest is fine for Daredevil

• Recognise if Kingpin hasn’t “been Captain America tier since the 90s”, that’ll still be 30 years of him being said tiers and will be listed on the file regardless.

 

[The_Impress]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 input

 

[M3X_2.0]

I don’t think the guy with the “Iron Man level armor” really gets taken out legitimately by Daredevil? He gets slammed along the pavement because Daredevil tied him to a van, and gets KO’d off that. Don’t know why that scales to DD really.

Fight occurred off screen, he smiled saying he had no reason to hold back anymore and next panel mf is tied to a van with chains. Idk about you but that's clear indication he got ****** up by Daredevil to be on that situation.

He never really overpowers Punisher, is the thing, he mostly targets his vulnerable points and wins by exploiting them. In actual physicals there isn’t a difference, it’s just a skill and arguably speed advantage on Daredevil’s side

Oh yeah he did, 3 times actually, the two I linked and one during Daredevil/Punisher: The Seventh Circle, Frank only managed to touch him in V6. Though I didn't say he overpowered Punisher, just that he easily defeated him.

I think the Zdarsky Daredevil render shouldn’t be used to represent Daredevil’s general look, since in that comic he is more scruffy than before, list it separately

Disagree. Checcheto's Daredevil is by far the best looking one, with the modern suit. Current one needs to go.

Recognise if Kingpin hasn’t “been Captain America tier since the 90s”, that’ll still be 30 years of him being said tiers and will be listed on the file regardless.

What

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

thing, he mostly targets his vulnerable points and wins by exploiting them. In actual physicals there isn’t a difference, it’s just a skill and arguably speed advantage on Daredevil’s side

Daredevil consistently embarrasses that man. He even tells him in Zdarsky’s run, if he wanted to, even in his current state, he’d be dead.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Hope this thread doesn't go to hell when I'm sleeping.

 

[Damage3245]

The scrollbox should probably be twice as long as it currently is in the sandbox. Currently looks squashed.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah I never understood Kingpin being superior to Cap given the evidence of how badly DD demolishes Kingpin.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The scrollbox should probably be twice as long as it currently is in the sandbox. Currently looks squashed.

Gonna change that.

 

[Confluctor]

About the stamina section, why does it not have any scans or sources? Any reason for that?

 

[The_Impress]

Fight occurred off screen, he smiled saying he had no reason to hold back anymore and next panel mf is tied to a van with chains. Idk about you but that's clear indication he got ****** up by Daredevil to be on that situation.

Because Daredevil blitz him and tied him up with chains to the van? Why do you presume it's through AP when one punch from the armor very significantly bruised him?

There are more ways to **** someone up than through AP, especially with Daredevil who demonstratively has performed these moves.

Oh yeah he did, 3 times actually, the two I linked and one during Daredevil/Punisher: The Seventh Circle, Frank only managed to touch him in V6. Though I didn't say he overpowered Punisher, just that he easily defeated him.

I mean putting it in AP only serves to suggest it IS through overpowering. If it's a skill feat or a speed feat list it in appropriate sections

Disagree. Checcheto's Daredevil is by far the best looking one, with the modern suit. Current one needs to go.

Because it changes the design. List it separate. It "looks better" doesn't mean much when it looks significantly different from his standard look.

What

Yeeting 30 years for 30 years isn't really a relevant trade-off. That's why the file lists both :v

Daredevil consistently embarrasses that man. He even tells him in Zdarsky’s run, if he wanted to, even in his current state, he’d be dead.

Again, throuh blitzing and outskilling. He isn't overpowering him in AP. When he tells the shit you say in Zdarsky run, he's holding a gun in his hand and the insinuation is that DD massively outskills Punisher and if he were to be murderous and even use conventional weaponry, he'd very easily surpass Frank.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeeting 30 years for 30 years isn't really a relevant trade-off. That's why the file lists both :v

Which one is newer? The past 30 years should take precedence if things have demonstrably changed, something that happened 60 years might be a tad outdated.

 

[The_Impress]

Which one is newer? The past 30 years should take precedence if things have demonstrably changed

Why? If both can be incorporated they will, what is the issue then? No need to pick and choose.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Because Daredevil blitz him and tied him up with chains to the van? Why do you presume it's through AP when one punch from the armor very significantly bruised him?

There are more ways to **** someone up.

Your headcanon and you can't even prove that. There is no scan of Daredevil blitzing the armored dude. He smiles saying he won't hold back anymore then cut to a scene where armored dude is being tied and being a shitty situation.

Assuming that's being done by a blitz is your headcanon. Seriously, why is this even a discussion? Scene is clear, it's meant to show us Daredevil not holding back, dude was straight up treated like shit there

I mean putting it in AP only serves to suggest it IS through overpowering. If it's a skill feat or a speed feat list it in appropriate sections

Sigh. You're again lacking of reading comprehension. Something in the Attack Potency section isn't automatically a "overpower" feat. And you're actually having a hard time trying to understand what Matt did to Frank there.

It's not a skill nor a speed feat and I'm not changing that. Matt KO'ed Frank with one punch in the end, harmed him. Also did the same during Vol 1. Yeah, not being touched can be both speed and skill, but harming Frank and KO'ing him with one punch is AP.

I'm not changing it.

Because it changes the design. List it separate. It "looks better" doesn't mean much when it looks significantly different from his standard look.

It doesn't change the design It's been years since Daredevil's suit became more tactical with pockets and bells. And for God's sake, you're saying a character is significantly different because of a few beard. That's not even what significantly different means. Original aspects of Daredevil is there. It's a full body render of one of his current comics.

Not changing that.

Yeeting 30 years for 30 years isn't really a relevant trade-off. That's why the file lists both :v

Nah, it shouldn't work like that. You're saying a random encounter between Kingpin and Red Skull is somewhat Kingpin true representation regarding feats during that age. It's actually one feat against multiple showings of him being treated as a Daredevil enemy and being spanked by him or other street level dudes.

I don't even know why it wasn't considered an outlier.

 

[Chariot190]

Why? If both can be incorporated they will, what is the issue then?

If the literal past 3 decades have displayed something that demonstrably contradicts the preceding interactions of characters, which judging by the arguments, there very well does seem to be a noticeable difference in how character's are portrayed and match up, then perhaps, things changed and the character in question is now meant to be viewed at a power level different from what he was half a century ago and is now more consistently at a different tier?

And you say they can both be incorporated, but if that's the case, why is there even any debate to begin with? If they can both be applied just fine without any issue or contradictions then cool, but I'm not sure if that's actually true, if it is there wouldn't really be such a huge issue in regards to where and who he scales to in the first place.

 

[The_Impress]

Your headcanon and you can't even prove that. There is no scan of Daredevil blitzing the armored dude. He smiles saying he won't hold back anymore then cut to a scene where armored dude is being tied and being a shitty situation.

Vs. Your headcanon of him suddenly overpowering a guy that ****** up his face in one punch? Even though DD blatantly picks up the chain before saying he won't hold back anymore and the armor basically has no damage shown otherwise? Are you gonna act like Daredevil didn't LITERALLY outskill and blitz Punisher an issue before?

Sigh. You're again lacking of reading comprehension.

Very kindly worded.

Something in the Attack Potency section isn't automatically a "overpower" feat. And you're actually having a hard time trying to understand what Matt did to Frank there.

It's not a skill nor a speed feat and I'm not changing that. Matt KO'ed Frank with one punch in the end, harmed him. Also did the same during Vol 1. Yeah, not being touched can be both speed and skill, but harming Frank and KO'ing him with one punch is AP.

Which DD first disabled him in the neck to restrict his movements entire? Again, did you forget the scene? Or are you just gonna ignore the pages before and focus on the one punch alone.

It doesn't change the design It's been years since Daredevil's suit became more tactical with pockets and bells. And for God's sake, you're saying a character is significantly different because of a few beard. That's not even what significantly different means. Original aspects of Daredevil is there. It's a full body render of one of his current comics.

Not changing that.

"It doesn't change his design" proceeds to explain how the design changed

Nah, it shouldn't work like that. You're saying a random encounter between Kingpin and Red Skull is somewhat Kingpin true representation regarding feats during that age. It's actually one feat against multiple showings of him being treated as a Daredevil enemy and being spanked by him or other street level dudes.

Demonstrate? Because he went from a Spider-Man villain to a Cap villain and only during the Miller run did he relevantly become the general street villain, and even then he was way the **** stronger than every street tier until the Bendis run made him less wonk, afterwards which it went back to him being Mayor of New York where he barely fought Daredevil and straight up had feats against Rhino and Black Panther.

And you say they can both be incorporated, but if that's the case, why is there even any debate to begin with?

I don't know, ask M3X why the 9-A+ via scaling is wrong when the file already lists 9-A as well via upscale from DD and said 9-A+ is a possibly.

There literally isn't a debate to be had, guy just harmed both tiers and went through no power change whatsoever, he's inconsistent.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I disagree with Daredevil upscaling from Frank physically, 2 of the scans/fights ive seen starts with Daredevil rather quickly striking Franks throat which is a known weakspot of the human body, given DD and Frank are comparable such a strike, especially with a blunt weapon, should stun Frank leaving him open for further strikes without being able to properly defend himself.

That seems more about DD having superior skill and knowledge of human anatomy. They seem to generally match each other when they go blow for blow until DD takes the advantage through Speed, Skill and/or Pressure Points.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah, the first instance can't be used since the Club did most of the work and ofc, the throat thing. The club hit him in the throat. As far as this art is concerned.

For the second instance, you deliberately left out the part where Punisher gets shot in his left chest with a bullet - it's literally the page before it. And again, throat thing. (Also the scans are in the wrong order)

 

[LordTracer]

This might just be because I’m on mobile, but the image for Matt’s red costume is way too big for the profile.

He shouldn’t be At least Wall level+ when the Wall level+ scaling comes from him.

My thoughts on the DD v. Punisher stuff are pretty much the same as Zark and Confluctor.

I don’t see why Matt has a ‘likely far higher’ for his combat and reaction speeds.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have personally mostly read classic era Kingpin, when he could put up fights against Spider-Man, quite easily beat up Daredevil, and outmatched the Red Skull with Captain America's cloned body. If he has turned considerably weaker in more recent years, perhaps the best solution would be to have two physical statistics keys for the character?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Well, I have personally mostly read classic era Kingpin, when he could put up fights against Spider-Man, quite easily beat up Daredevil, and outmatched the Red Skull with Captain America's cloned body. If he has turned considerably weaker in more recent years, perhaps the best solution would be to have two physical statistics keys for the character?

I second this. From what I can tell, we split a lot of characters into "Classic" and "Modern" keys due to vastly different portrayal and whatnot. Why should Kingpin be any different? It seems like the best solution to me.

Profile rework looks good btw. A much needed improvement.

 

[The_Impress]

He didn’t really go consistently 9-A though, there are still a bajillion instances of “randomly superhuman Kingpin” even nowadays.

Like I don’t really mind splitting keys for him, but I don’t think it solves anything, Classic Kingpin will be arguable for 9-A+ or High 8-C, while Modern one will be baseline 9-A or High 8-C+, it just makes the endeavour more annoying than anything.

Deadass think leaving him Unknown might be a possibility

 

[Confluctor]

I second Unknown.

I also wouldn't be against High 8-C at peak - a dumb solution but worth looking into ig, but scaling to him needs to be evaluated very closely. And likely no one should be scaling from him.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, if other characters currently scale from his calculated feats, and we place him at unknown statistics, that will obviously cause problems.

I am also uneasy with placing him at unknown statistics for other reasons, given that there are plenty of other Marvel characters that are far more inconsistent than he is in terms of power level, and we still list many of them in our wiki.

Can't we list him as "At least Small Building level (Examples) to Small Building level+ (Examples), possibly Large Building level (Examples) to Large Building level+ (Examples)" or "At least Small Building level (Examples) to Small Building level+ (Examples), possibly Large Building level (Examples)" instead? It seems much preferable to "Unknown" at least.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Well, I have personally mostly read classic era Kingpin, when he could put up fights against Spider-Man, quite easily beat up Daredevil, and outmatched the Red Skull with Captain America's cloned body. If he has turned considerably weaker in more recent years, perhaps the best solution would be to have two physical statistics keys for the character?

peter holds back. Heck he stomped the hell out of kingpin in one more day when he stopped holding back.

 

[Confluctor]

Back in Black* but yes, that's correct

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, if other characters currently scale from his calculated feats, and we place him at unknown statistics, that will obviously cause problems.

I am also uneasy with placing him at unknown statistics for other reasons, given that there are plenty of other Marvel characters that are far more inconsistent than he is in terms of power level, and we still list many of them in our wiki.

Can't we list him as "At least Small Building level (Examples) to Small Building level+ (Examples), possibly Large Building level (Examples) to Large Building level+ (Examples)" or "At least Small Building level (Examples) to Small Building level+ (Examples), possibly Large Building level (Examples)" instead? It seems much preferable to "Unknown" at least.

So about these suggestions... Would some variation of one of them be viable, or should we skip scaling to Spider-Man altogether?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

So about these suggestions... Would some variation of one of them be viable, or should we skip scaling to Spider-Man altogether?

Skip scaling to Peter. He holds back a lot.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is that fine with the rest of you as well?

 

[The_Impress]

Should we wait for M3X or just apply the accepted stuff so far, for the Daredevil file.

 

[Antvasima]

M3X asked me to ban his account a while back. (He is always welcome back though.)

Anyway, can you or somebody else write a reminder post regarding what has been accepted here so far, and what that currently needs to be evaluated, please?

 

[The_Impress]

What is accepted is everything, what isn't is At least for Daredevil's ratings and 2 supporting feats used

 

[The_Impress]

Oh also @LordTracer disagrees with the speed listing but didn't elaborate

 

[Antvasima]

What is accepted is everything, what isn't is At least for Daredevil's ratings and 2 supporting feats used

Okay. Can somebody be more specific regarding what hasn't been accepted, the relevant arguments, and which members that are arguing about it, please?

 

[The_Impress]

• At least Wall level+ for Daredevil is wonk as shit, he IS the 9-B+ calc, who the **** is he upscaling from? Himself?
  • I don’t think the guy with the “Iron Man level armor” really gets taken out legitimately by Daredevil? He gets slammed along the pavement because Daredevil tied him to a van, and gets KO’d off that. Don’t know why that scales to DD really. You can argue DURABILITY for him tanking a punch maybe, but like, it’s something put solely to make Daredevil sound more impressive by wording, noting said armor is featless, don’t bother.
  • He never really overpowers Punisher, is the thing, he mostly targets his vulnerable points and wins by exploiting them. In actual physicals there isn’t a difference, it’s just a skill and arguably speed advantage on Daredevil’s side
• I think the Zdarsky Daredevil render shouldn’t be used to represent Daredevil’s general look, since in that comic he is more scruffy than before, list it separately

Basically these things are rejected

I don’t see why Matt has a ‘likely far higher’ for his combat and reaction speeds.

This hasn't been discussed

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. That seems to make sense to me.

 

[The_Impress]

So can I apply the accepted stuff?

 

[The_Impress]

Nvm M3X deleted the sandbox.

Thread can be closed ig