Marvel Comics - Cosmology Upgrade

[Antvasima]

Well, The House of Ideas is technically a part of the Quesada era. The metafiction was not anywhere near as heavy previously. And as its retcons of the cosmology were never stated outright in-story, we have to insert our own personal headcanon, rather than be completely honest regarding what really happened, and truth rather than misdirection is almost consistently my personal preference.

Anyway, how would this cosmology split work in practice exactly, and are any of you willing to help out with it?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Confluctor here, but I think honestly it's whatever, because even if it splits as requested the only thing that will at most change in concept is the way the Multiverse is viewed.

For example, Joe Quesada's Multiverse is a Type III where earths exist on different levels of infinities, as seen in X-Man with the tree of worlds. Whereas in DeFalco's hands the focus for the concept of dimensionality is precisely laid in the subspace, alongside his entire Editor-In-Chief work that unfolds arounds the framework "subspace/hyperspace" within the Negative Zone, even in the comics he has written so far.

That's so fat the only notable and that you could call striking difference, but after Quesada the cosmology just go back to the Subspace/Hyperspace thing as the concept of dimensionality. Whether it will be split or whatnot, on any given issue it has a consistency that even if fully splited, they will still be the same concept in Tiering, not to mention as Confluctor said, there are many canonical connections between most of the cosmologies.

The X-Man Earths were not remotely higher infinities, just differently powerful, and it was never referred to again by other writers, and again, officially, the entire pre-Ewing Quesada multiverse was very explicitly presented as being possible to destroy on a 2-B or 2-A level

 

[Alonik]

The X-Man Earths were not remotely higher infinities, just differently powerful, and it was never referred to again by other writers, and again, officially, the entire pre-Ewing Quesada multiverse was very explicitly presented as being possible to destroy on a 2-B or 2-A level

I have solid evidence that they were Higher Infinities/qualitatively superior to each other.

• Well, as you remeber they were higher and lower dimensions: X-Man Vol 1 #65 - May 24, 2000
• And as such, if a being moves to a higher level of the Spiral o Worlds/Tree of Worlds, they just start dwarfing the previous level, as can be seen here where a random Human just by ascending one level of the spiral was dwarfing lower dimensional universes of the spiral; X-Man Vol 1 #64 - June, 2000
• Qabiri show how the existence of earth on higher and lower dimensional levels, and how one of these levels was compared to his existence while transacting through the levels of the spiral; X-Man Vol 1 #74 - April, 2001

If you want call members who are extremely knowledgeable about the tiering system, because i think this is a pretty solid High 1-B due to:

1. The Writer works with Higher and Lower Dimensions
2. It is shown that one level of this spiral i.e. Hierarchy of worlds can dwarfs the lower level/lower dimensions, and thus should be enough to be a qualitatively superior, hence, as any other on the spiral.

 

[Antvasima]

The characters from higher energy Earths were not even remotely presented as being infinitely stronger within that story. In fact, once the most powerful antagonist from the highest level Earth was presented with actual cosmic entities, he was completely awed and overwhelmed by their presence. You are attempting to impose your own standards to exaggerate the tiering as much as possible in an extremely unreasonable manner.

 

[Alonik]

The characters from higher energy Earths were not even remotely presented as being infinitely stronger within that story. In fact, once the most powerful antagonist from the highest level Earth was presented with actual cosmic entities, he was completely awed and overwhelmed by their presence. You are attempting to impose your own standards to exaggerate the tiering as much as possible in an extremely unreasonable manner.

I don't know where you saw this, but I just sent a solid proof of a random human just by ascending one level of the Spiral of Worlds, Dwarfing a whole dimensional level of it, this is blatant proof that just by ascending to a higher plane/level you become infinitely stronger to the point of being able to hold the lower level between your fingers.

 

[Confluctor]

The House of Ideas is technically a part of the Quesada era.

That doesn't matter in the slightest. What we need to consider is, they went out of their way and corrected any mistakes. Its a verse standard. Time doesn't matter. It exists. That's the only thing that really matters.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know where you saw this, but I just sent a solid proof of a random human just by ascending one level of the Spiral of Worlds, Dwarfing a whole dimensional level of it, this is blatant proof that just by ascending to a higher plane/level you become infinitely stronger to the point of being able to hold the lower level between your fingers.

Holding out your fingers to show the Moon between them in real life is an optical illusion. It does not have any actual effect even if it is applied to the Earth instead, and even if it had, it would just be a 5-B feat.

in practice, the villain of the story, who came from the highest level Earth, was not portrayed as anywhere near infinitely more powerful than X-Man, nor were lower Earths portrayed as infinitely less powerful than the inhabitants of the main Marvel universe, as far as I recall. As such, what you are trying to impose here does not make any sense from the full context of the actual story.

 

[Antvasima]

That doesn't matter in the slightest. What we need to consider is, they went out of their way and corrected any mistakes.

How so? The House of Ideas was never mentioned in conjunction with justifying any examples of retroactive continuity.

Its a verse standard. Time doesn't matter. It exists. That's the only thing that really matters.

What do you mean more specifically?

 

[Alonik]

Holding out your fingers to show the Moon between them in real life is an optical illusion. It does not have any actual effect even if it is applied to the Earth instead, and even if it had, it would just be a 5-B feat.

in practice, the villain of the story, who came from the highest level Earth, was not portrayed as anywhere near infinitely more powerful than X-Man, nor were lower Earths portrayed as infinitely less powerful than the inhabitants of the main Marvel universe, as far as I recall. As such, what you are trying to impose here does not make any sense from the full context of the actual story.

Sure, we'll do that, we'll even put a universal rule on the wiki where we'll say that any universe that is represented as a earth, is in fact 5-B, in which case we can also downgrade the multiverse of infinite earth for both Marvel Comics and DC Comics to 3-A, because what is seen from planes like the Monitor Sphere or the Nexus of All Realities are actually planets, not metaphorical representations of entire universes.

That reply of yours was quite biased, Antvasima, sorry.

 

[Confluctor]

How so? The House of Ideas was never mentioned in conjunction with justifying any examples of retroactive continuity.

.....what?

 

[Antvasima]

Sure, we'll do that, we'll even put a universal rule on the wiki where we'll say that any universe that is represented as a earth, is in fact 5-B, in which case we can also downgrade the multiverse of infinite earth for both Marvel Comics and DC Comics to 3-A, because what is seen from planes like the Monitor Sphere or the Nexus of All Realities are actually planets, not metaphorical representations of entire universes.

That reply of yours was quite biased, Antvasima, sorry.

The focus in this story was on the Earths themselves, not on the entire universes.

Also, again, putting the out your hand towards the Moon so it looks like being in-between your fingers does not remotely cause that to be the case, and inhabitants of higher Earths were here just portrayed as more powerful to a finite, and definitely not infinite, degree. If they had been infinitely more powerful, X-Man would not have been able to do anything whatsoever to them, and similarly, inhabitants of lower Earths would not have been able to even inconvenience him in the slightest.

So since your reasoning does not make any logical sense to anybody who has actually read the story in question, even though it was years ago in my case, from my perspective you are the one who is being extremely biased and possibly dishonest here.

 

[Antvasima]

.....what?

I mean that all that we saw of the House of Ideas was that the One Above All lives there, that Nyx wanted to use it as a power-source to remake the multiverse in her image, and that it empowered the Vision to defeat her despite the ridiculous power difference, since "the house always wins" (since writers such as Al Ewing use completely nonsensical, lazy, and cheating storytelling nowadays). Anything beyond that seems like our own headcanon.

However, if this revision was accepted previously, it is obviously better than nothing from my perspective.

 

[Excellence616]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

However, if this revision was accepted previously, it is obviously better than nothing from my perspective.

So can you explain what was accepted and what you, Impress, and others involved with your cosmology revision have in mind please, @Confluctor ?

 

[Sandman31]

• And as such, if a being moves to a higher level of the Spiral o Worlds/Tree of Worlds, they just start dwarfing the previous level, as can be seen here where a random Human just by ascending one level of the spiral was dwarfing lower dimensional universes of the spiral; X-Man Vol 1 #64 - June, 2000

I agree with Ant on this one. One thing though, the worlds are indeed meant to represent universes, they were repeatedly stated to be so,.


Anyway, heres the full sequence and context. While the earths are indeed meant to represent universes, it doesnt mean that the hand holding it is above or transcends it as shown in these scans

1. The universe that the purple dude was holding was the main universe, which is said to exists above his universe. As the other scan shows, it was merely meant to show gaunt moving through the universes, not transcending it. In that scan hewas not showing his superiority over the universes, he exists in a universe below the one he was shown holding (616) and had to drag himself upwards to it

Also, he is definitely not superior to the world he's holding. When he broke through the barrier of that universe he was beaten by x-man (a dude from the universe he was shown "holding") and can barely survived on earth because he evolved differently from humans

(X-Man#64)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Sandman31. We would greatly appreciate your further help with preparing our DC Comics cosmology revision project as well.

 

[Confluctor]

So can you explain what was accepted and what you, Impress, and others involved with your cosmology revision have in mind please, @Confluctor ?

About the previous revision? That each character (cosmic ones) and the whole cosmology will get two ratings, 1 absolutely lowest and 2nd absolute highest

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems better than what we have now at least, but I am still worried about chain-scaling exaggerations.

 

[Confluctor]

Nah, not really. It's easily fixable by looking into greater context

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I hope that you are correct. Feel free to write up drafts for this then.

 

[Confluctor]

Oh I really can't any time soon. Wait for impress whenever she returns since she is leading it

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate. I am not sure if Impress will return or not.

 

[Confluctor]

Oh why?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, because the HR group decided to demote her for her recent and past bouts of very bad behaviour, which she and Amelia seem to have taken personally.

 

[Confluctor]

Ah

 

[Lawiegg]

Man i feel bad for you guys .
How many revision thread did u guys made?

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this thread, or use it to buIld upon what was agreed in Impress' previous cosmology-splitting discussion thread?

 

[Recap_]

preparing our DC Comics cosmology revision project as well.

Uh.... When will this project be finished?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. It is taking very long currently due to waiting for responses from Ultima for several months, combined with that our project members are largely not very active anymore.

 

[LoganKroos]

wouldn't it be better to close this topic and start a new one for each separation of cosmology?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the one for DC Comics will have to wait, and we need some good structured idea for the accepted one for Marvel Comics as well.

 

[Excellence616]

bump

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

We will likely have to wait for Confluctor to get the time to organise the revision that Impress got accepted earlier, and he is on vacation right now.

 

[Excellence616]

bump

 

[Transcending]

We will likely have to wait for Confluctor to get the time to organise the revision that Impress got accepted earlier, and he is on vacation right now.

Will he return to the wiki?

 

[Recap_]

Will he return to the wiki?

I miss him

 

[Transcending]

I miss him

Same, he was one of the best there was here

 

[Antvasima]

Will he return to the wiki?

Hopefully eventually, but he is very busy IRL right now.

Would any other knowledgeable members here be willing to together help out with organising such a project, based on what was already accepted, instead?

 

[Excellence616]

bump