"Marksmanship" Ability Page Creation

[Armorchompy]

They are used with very different principles and lethality though.

That's wrong though. Just look at medieval combat arts, both armored and unarmored, they very often ended up in grappling where the goal was to get the opponent on the ground or in an unfavorable position and then land a lethal blow with your weapon, which is very close to martial arts like LINE which are designed for lethal combat and esentially boil down to "get people on the ground and stomp on their head or other weak points". I can't speak for eastern armed combat but I would wager it's similar just because that's the optimal way to do it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What differs Weapon Mastery from Marksmanship in this case is that Marksmanship isn’t necessarily done with a weapon.

Someone like Bullseye or Daredevil, can do it with regular objects you find on your regular day.

 

[Antvasima]

That's wrong though. Just look at medieval combat arts, both armored and unarmored, they very often ended up in grappling where the goal was to get the opponent on the ground or in an unfavorable position and then land a lethal blow with your weapon, which is very close to martial arts like LINE which are designed for lethal combat and esentially boil down to "get people on the ground and stomp on their head or other weak points". I can't speak for eastern armed combat but I would wager it's similar just because that's the optimal way to do it.

Yes, wrestling is actually very efficient in combination with close combat weaponry.

I was told that there was a mediocre Chinese Ultimate Fighting mixed martial artist who went around China and effortlessly beat all of the supposedly invincible traditional martial arts masters there that were willing to fight him, but since he posted his victories as "Fake Martial Arts" or somesuch via YouTube, and it turned extremely popular, he was put in (a presumably hellish) prison by the CCP for "shaming the nation" or somesuch.

Also, a very highly skilled professional boxer that I used to know once told me that the strongest world class wrestlers are more dangerous than the strongest world class boxers, and that Karelin at his peak would have beaten Mike Tyson at his peak within half a minute.

 

[Antvasima]

What differs Weapon Mastery from Marksmanship in this case is that Marksmanship isn’t necessarily done with a weapon.

Someone like Bullseye or Daredevil, can do it with regular objects you find on your regular day.

Yes, that is a very good point.

 

[Agnaa]

What differs Weapon Mastery from Marksmanship in this case is that Marksmanship isn’t necessarily done with a weapon.

Someone like Bullseye or Daredevil, can do it with regular objects you find on your regular day.

Yes, that is a very good point.

Kokken Sabi and her family are such good swordsmen that they can use any long and thin object as a sword, including a stick or a roll of paper.

Being able to use ordinary items that skillfully doesn't distinguish Marksmanship from Weapon Mastery.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, wrestling is actually very efficient in combination with close combat weaponry.

I was told that there was a mediocre Chinese Ultimate Fighting mixed martial artist who went around China and effortlessly beat all of the supposedly invincible traditional martial arts masters there that were willing to fight him, but since he posted his victories as "Fake Martial Arts" or somesuch via YouTube, and it turned extremely popular, he was put in (a presumably hellish) prison by the CCP for "shaming the nation" or somesuch.

That'll be Xu Xiaodong. He's been on the receiving end of extemely unfair treatment but I don't think he's in prison, he has a Youtube channel (I think this is him at least) where he posted just today.

Also, a very highly skilled professional boxer that I used to know once told me that the strongest world class wrestlers are more dangerous than the strongest world class boxers, and that Karelin at his peak would have beaten Mike Tyson at his peak within half a minute.

There's more nuance than that but I think the general consensus is indeed that boxing in particular isn't too effective against grappling.

 

[Armorchompy]

Kokken Sabi and her family are such good swordsmen that they can use any long and thin object as a sword, including a stick or a roll of paper.

Being able to use ordinary items that skillfully doesn't distinguish Marksmanship from Weapon Mastery.

What would be your thoughts regarding people like Iron Man who have impressive aiming feats but the way that they interface with their "weaponry" is effectively just pointing their hands at things and firing?

Also, what about people like this guy who have cybernetic implants that just allow them to be more accurate at an inherent level?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Being able to use ordinary items that skillfully doesn't distinguish Marksmanship from Weapon Mastery.

Sorry but it does. You showed one example, somewhere in this thread was shown another counter example.

Daredevil due to being against killing people and blind, doesn’t use guns. His senses still make him better than Punisher who can shoot targets down from miles away. And he doesn’t know how to use a gun, only how to shoot.

Bullseye has this innate ability to hit everything with supernatural accuracy. He is indeed good with every weapon he touches, but everything he touches becomes lethal. Be it his teeth, a pendrive, a small pebble or even a paper airplane.

I don’t think your example is good enough because everything they use resemble a sword. It’s very different from crafting a plane made out of paper and still killing someone as effectively as shooting a gun.

 

[Antvasima]

That'll be Xu Xiaodong. He's been on the receiving end of extemely unfair treatment but I don't think he's in prison, he has a Youtube channel (I think this is him at least) where he posted just today.

Okay. I am relieved to hear it.

There's more nuance than that but I think the general consensus is indeed that boxing in particular isn't too effective against grappling.

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry but it does. You showed one example, somewhere in this thread was shown another counter example.

Daredevil due to being against killing people and blind, doesn’t use guns. His senses still make him better than Punisher who can shoot targets down from miles away. And he doesn’t know how to use a gun, only how to shoot.

Bullseye has this innate ability to hit everything with supernatural accuracy. He is indeed good with every weapon he touches, but everything he touches becomes lethal. Be it his teeth, a pendrive, a small pebble or even a paper airplane.

I don’t think your example is good enough because everything they use resemble a sword. It’s very different from crafting a plane made out of paper and still killing someone as effectively as shooting a gun.

I am personally currently inclined to agree with M3X here.

 

[Agnaa]

What would be your thoughts regarding people like Iron Man who have impressive aiming feats but the way that they interface with their "weaponry" is effectively just pointing their hands at things and firing?

Also, what about people like this guy who have cybernetic implants that just allow them to be more accurate at an inherent level?

As I've said, I think examples like that, and magical spells, are the narrow range where Weapon Mastery doesn't cover Marksmanship, and hence, why we need a general Combat Expertise page.

Sorry but it does. You showed one example, somewhere in this thread was shown another counter example.

Daredevil due to being against killing people and blind, doesn’t use guns. His senses still make him better than Punisher who can shoot targets down from miles away. And he doesn’t know how to use a gun, only how to shoot.

Bullseye has this innate ability to hit everything with supernatural accuracy. He is indeed good with every weapon he touches, but everything he touched becomes lethal. Be it his teeth, a pendrive, a small pebble or even a paper airplane.

I don’t think your example is good enough because everything they use resemble a sword. It’s very different from crafting a plane made out of paper and still killing someone as effectively as shooting a gun.

Getting into the weeds about this seems completely unproductive.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Getting into the weeds about this seems completely unproductive.

Not really, it’s the point of our discussion. You gave one example, I gave you two more to counter it.

Again, what differs WM to Marksmanship is the lack of weapons being used. This is the key argument that has yet to be debunked.

 

[Armorchompy]

As I've said, I think examples like that, and magical spells, are the narrow range where Weapon Mastery doesn't cover Marksmanship, and hence, why we need a general Combat Expertise page.

I would agree with that. Kinda similar to Bullseye but another case this would cover I think is people like Ishmael whose specific talent is that they can turn anything into a weapon, with the difference being that while Bullseye really just throws Ishmael also does stuff like create traps out of mundane things or uses them in close quarters, alongside throwing them bullseye-style

 

[Agnaa]

Not really, it’s the point of our discussion. You gave one example, I gave you two more to counter it.

Again, what differs WM to Marksmanship is the lack of weapons being used. This is the key argument that has yet to be debunked.

1. It has been addressed. Read my first three posts in this thread, and my most recent post, to get every important part of the argument. I've already run through it multiple times with multiple different people already, I can't be bothered doing it again.
2. At this point, we're arguing about what to do practically; whether to merge the pages, have separate pages, or merge a bunch into a general Combat Expertise page. I'm defending merging them all into Combat Expertise, saying "But Marksmanship doesn't need weapons" is irrelevant to that proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

If we create a "Combat Expertise" page, we would need sections for Martial Arts/Unarmed Combat, Weapon Mastery/Close Combat Weaponry, Ranged Combat Mastery, and Supernatural Marksmanship, with redirect links to it from our current Weapon Mastery and Martial Arts pages, but I much prefer to keep things as they are in that regard, as if something is not broken we should not institute major revisions to revise it, but rather focus our efforts on much more constructive work. Also, most redirects from our "Weapon Mastery" page would turn unspecific and confusing.

 

[Agnaa]

I think they are somewhat broken, in that they don't account for defensive measures of skill (seeing through feints, being able to identify weaknesses, etc.), and they don't account for other forms of precision, such as with abilities and precise movement.

I don't think the redirects would be unspecific. Pages themselves would still say "Weapon mastery", or for some, the specific weapon that the character has mastery with, and pages should generally already elaborate on that sort of thing.

 

[Antvasima]

To simplify all of this, if a separate page for Marksmanship is not accepted, I think that we should simply expand a bit on our current Weapon Mastery page, by adding a section for this, and possibly close combat weaponry and ranged weaponry via firearms as well. That is all.

 

[Antvasima]

I think they are somewhat broken, in that they don't account for defensive measures of skill (seeing through feints, being able to identify weaknesses, etc.), and they don't account for other forms of precision, such as with abilities and precise movement.

I don't think the redirects would be unspecific. Pages themselves would still say "Weapon mastery", or for some, the specific weapon that the character has mastery with, and pages should generally already elaborate on that sort of thing.

Well, again, our current system works well in this regard, so I personally much prefer to not make any drastic unnecessary changes. Let's finish our current more crucial policy revisions done, so we can finally get our extremely important infobox-adding project going afterwards.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah. I don't know if I said this here, or just on Discord, but it is true that, while the status quo leaves some things out, it hasn't really caused issues so far, so I don't care if we leave it for later.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If we’re merging then merge everything. From martial arts to weapon mastery.

 

[Antvasima]

If we’re merging then merge everything. From martial arts to weapon mastery.

Ugh. No, definitely not. However, I am fine with a separate "Marksmanship" page as long as it specifies that it is only characters similar to Bullseye that should be included.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah. I don't know if I said this here, or just on Discord, but it is true that, while the status quo leaves some things out, it hasn't really caused issues so far, so I don't care if we leave it for later.

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Armorchompy]

There's a game (that I plan to index) where the protagonist's fighting style is solely based around parrying and dodging attacks until enemies get tired out, that has almost no offense with it (some weapon attacks that are really just pure power and a shoulder check to push away opponents). It'd still be close enough to martial arts to count as that, but I think it's still a bit of a grey area that'd benefit from Combat Expertise

 

[Antvasima]

It still works as Martial Arts. The character is obviously a skilled combatant given what you described, just pacifistic.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno if dodging is "martial arts" though. If he did the same thing while holding a sword, would we consider it "weapon mastery"? Technically speaking his cybernetic arm kinda counts as a weapon.

I would definitely index it as MA as we stand, it'd just be more of a "good enough" than a perfect fit.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Martial Arts isn’t always about offensive. It’s still something to train your mind too, so that defensive style is still martial arts.

 

[Antvasima]

Martial Arts isn’t always about offensive. It’s still something to train your mind too, so that defensive style is still martial arts.

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

Ugh. No, definitely not. However, I am fine with a separate "Marksmanship" page as long as it specifies that it is only characters similar to Bullseye that should be included.

@M3X_2.0

So would you be willing to create a draft for this type of page?

 

[M3X_2.0]

@M3X_2.0

So would you be willing to create a draft for this type of page?

I did, but people disagreed with that, and I don’t want to disrespect their votes.

 

[Antvasima]

I did, but people disagreed with that, and I don’t want to disrespect their votes.

What is the staff tally here so far? Meaning, which staff member thought what here? It seems like a harmless and uncontroversial addition to me.

 

[M3X_2.0]

4 without me and Chariot (6)





5 without you Agnaa. I don’t know your position yet.

On this comment I counted the votes.

 

[Antvasima]

So @KingTempest , @SamanPatou , @Duedate8898 , you (M3X_2.0) and I agree with the creation of a "Marksmanship" page, whereas @Deagonx and @Tllmbrg disagree, and @Armorchompy is neutral then? Have any other staff members here made a decision regarding the issue?

 

[M3X_2.0]

So @KingTempest , @SamanPatou , @Duedate8898 , you (M3X_2.0) and I agree with the creation of a "Marksmanship" page, whereas @Deagonx and @Tllmbrg disagree, and @Armorchompy is neutral then? Have any other staff members here made a decision regarding the issue?

I don’t think so.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm in agreement with a Marksmanship page being made. The draft looks fine.

It should probably be specified though that just possessing a ranged weapon isn't enough for the ability. They have to have demonstrated competent accuracy.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm in agreement with a Marksmanship page being made. The draft looks fine.

M3X 2.0/Marksmanship

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Damage3245]

M3X 2.0/Marksmanship

vsbattles.fandom.com

Updated my post.

Draft looks fine, but it should probably be specified though that just possessing a ranged weapon isn't enough for the ability. They have to have demonstrated competent accuracy.

 

[Antvasima]

Preferably superhumanly competent accuracy as I see it.

Anyway, I think that you have gained sufficient support to create this page then, M3X.

Thank you for helping out, Damage.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I edited it to "... as long as the character in question throws it with superhuman accuracy."

The description of the ability also helps to distinguish regular shooters to superhuman shooters.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll post the page

 

[M3X_2.0]

Weapon Mastery

Weapon Mastery refers to the ability to use one or more types of close combat weaponry with greater skill than the average person. This classification can be used for any kind of this type of weapon, such as a sword, spear, or knife. However, the degree of one's skill with any particular weapon...

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