Mario Verse VS Sonic Verse

[Adamjensen2030]

Kevyn Souza:

Do you also have more proof that Paper Mario and Mario games take place in the same universe? I thought Mario and Paper Mario Games take place in separate universes.

Meanwhile Archie Sonic Verse > Paper Mario Verse because of "The Source of all", Solaris and Enerjak.

 

[Ryukama]

I know that it says the player could possibly be the Gentle Pull for the specific character's verse. By that logic all video game characters have their own Gentle Pull aka the player since the player is the one that helps the hero defeat the villain. No offense I'm saying what I think.

But it doesn't work that way. Just because the Marioverse may or may not treat "the player" as a supreme being, does not mean that all video games do so.

It's like saying cause DC treats the writer of their stories as Tier 0, that every series has a Tier 0 writer.

Sonic does not have a supreme being as powerful as Gentle Pull. Please just accept that already. Nothing is stated or shown in Sonic's games to have such a character. And even if Mario treats "the player" of the games as supreme being, that doesn't mean "the player" of Sonic games or of any other game is treated similarly.

Debate with characters that actually exist please. Not with an entirely assumed fan character god.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Do you also have more proof that Paper Mario and Mario games take place in the same universe? I thought Mario and Paper Mario Games take place in separate universes.

Meanwhile Archie Sonic Verse > Paper Mario Verse because of "The Source of all", Solaris and Enerjak.

DRB has already explained this in this thread.

And read the note in the Paper Mario profile:

Despite the confusion of the Mario Bros franchise canon due to its 5th installment of the Mario and Luigi series, Paper Jam, several games such as Super Mario 64 DS, Super Mario Sunshine, Mario Party 5, and other installment has made several connections to the Paper Mario franchise which establish the series to be part of same verse. It should be noted that the Paper Mario series has made several connections to other games as well with an interview of the creator confirming that the overall franchise having no canon to speak of. As such, both versions of Mario are still considered the same character. As a result, since Paper Mario is technically Mario due to lack of continuity, his stats without the weapons stay the same as his counterpart.

Also, you did not restrict the battle to a single universe. Even if they were different, you said "Mario Verse", and Mario Verse is a Multiverse, not a single universe. This would at most make Paper Mario a different version of an alternate universe, still being part of Mario-verse.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Ryukama:

When I debate I usually use real world logic to speak my opinions. I believe in God. I don't know if you do or not. If you still want to use the Gentle Pull against Game Sonic Verse despite the Gentle Pull not being an official playable Nintendo character yet then yes Gentle Pull solos the Sonic Verse.

Kevyn Souza:

Mario is lucky to have a Paper Version of himself to be canon to Mario games. Meanwhile Sonic doesn't have that luxury since his Archie version isn't canon...Also the Archie Sonic Verse has infinite universes.

 

[Ryukama]

This has nothing to with whether or not you believe in a real world God. Which I don't care at all to discuss and respect whatever view you have regarding that.

But if the Sonic series does not state or show to have a god, we can't assume they do. Even if the real world does have a god, we don't assume that for fictional stories, as there are many stories in which a god doesn't exist in. Plus we don't use real world logic at all times when discussing fiction, or else no one in Sonic would be FTL.

And if Sonicverse does a god, then there is the question of how powerful this god is. As there are supreme beings of vastly varying power. Annoying Dog is quite obviously nowhere near as powerful as Azathoth.

TLDR: Real life religious views have nothing to do with this. We don't assume a series has a supreme being with 2-B levels if that was never stated or shown within the series.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Ryukama:

Okay... then how come Rosalina's statements about "The Gentle Pull" are to be taken as fact while Tails statement in Sonic Adventure about the "Chaos Emeralds having unlimited power" is considered a hyperbole? I don't think it's fair. How do you consider specific statements as facts and or hyperbole? There must be a page on this website talking about statements and hyperboles.

Anyway I do have my opinions and so do you and everybody else. Please don't take this the wrong way. I always use real world logic in debates unless the author of a specific franchise makes statements about characters which are meant to be taken literally. Sega isn't as consistent as Nintendo I'll admit that. I also believe that Arceus is "The Gentle Pull" of Pokemon.

Please understand that I do not hate the Mario franchise. I do think that the Mario games are more fun to play than Sonic games on average. I personally like Sonic games more but I also think Mario can beat Kratos and Master Chief in a fight simultaneously.

Even then I do believe that Sonic Verse has a God which hasn't been talked about by Sega yet. I also personally believe that it's equally powerful as The Gentle Pull. I never said that it's a Tier 0 God okay. I also can't wait Nintendo and Sega to make a Mario and Sonic crossover game besides the Olympics. That's going to be awesome.

Anyway you are entitled to your own and so am I and the others. I hope you have a good day.

 

[Ryukama]

Someone whose entire character is based upon having an extremely intimate knowledge of the entire universe, who has been repeatedly confirmed by official sources to deeply possess said knowledge, having an entire scene where she elaborates on the nature of the universe is far more reliable than a statement of the Chaos Emeralds having "limitless" power. Despite how in most cases characters who are empowered by them have finite power.

Here is a page to detail what qualifies for a hyperbole and what does not.

And yes you're entitled to have an opinion. But when you have absolutely nothing at all to support your opinion, this site will not take it into consideration.

You have provided no evidence to suggest that Sonic has a god equally as powerful as The Gentle Pull. You literally only believe that because you want to believe it. Not because there is any logical reason to come to that conclusion. That's bias. Regardless of whether or not you hate or love the Mario games. You are holding a biased position.

I'm not trying to sound harsh. But it is getting frustrating that you keep arguing using a fan character you made up that you insist exists in the games. Yet have not given any evidence to suggest that it does.

Imagine if you are trying to say Dragon Ball is a stronger series than Naruto. But I keep saying that DB isn't because I have an OC that's as strong as Zen'ō. And despite that there is no evidence that my OC actually exists in Naruto, I keep saying Dragon Ball is not stronger.

I of course have nothing personal gainst anyone for an opinion they have. But I will not view an opinion as valid unless considerable or even at least some evidence supports it. Neither will this site. That doesn't mean you don't have the right to have that opinion. And I wish you have a good day as well.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Ryukama:

I do believe that the chaos emeralds have unlimited power but if Sonic was going to absorb all of the unlimited power of the chaos emeralds it would take forever, that's why he absorbed as much power as he needed to defeat his enemies. Same goes to Mephiles when he absorbed enough power of the chaos emeralds while fusing with Iblis to become powerful enough to consume all existing timelines in Sonic 06. Super Forms lasting 999 seconds is a game mechanic since Sonic Advance ending shows that Super Forms last for few days.

I don't think that Super Forms and powerups can last forever though. For example, Mario uses the fire powerup to become Fire Mario, if he gets hit once he loses his powerful while Super Sonic if he gets tired turns back to Base Sonic. The White Tanooki Suit is invincible to any attack except Lava. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the link to the Hyperbole page.

 

[Ryukama]

Well White Tanooki being invincible to everything but lava is considered both a NLF and a game mechanic. The same game mechanics that allows Mario to get hurt by a goomba or Sonic to get hurt touching a robot.

But you're welcome.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Ryukama:

I also think that Super Sonic being invincible to everything outside the Sonic games is a NLF as well. Vsbattles debates is about getting technical to determine the true winner.

 

[Ryukama]

Alright.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Ryukama:

I'm not like other Sonic fans who think that Sonic is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient who can 1 shot anything. I know that Sonic does have his limits even though he can break them and same goes for other characters.

 

[Ryukama]

I see.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

I personally believe that Super Saiyan Blue Goku can 1 shot Archie Super Sonic correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ryukama]

Unless it's base Archie Sonic and speed is equalized/he lets himself get hit no Goku can't. We rate as Super Archie Sonic as Multi-Universe level here. He does the one shotting.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

I looked at the attack chart. It doesn't mention Tier Low 2-C and higher tier's Energy... Does this mean that 2-C is infinitely more powerful than Low 2-C and that 2-B is infinitely more powerful than 2-C?

 

[Ryukama]

Low 2-C is infinitely more powerful than Tier 3.

2-C and 2-B are not infinitely greater than Low 2-C though. 2-A is.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

So measuring the amount of energy that Tier Low 2-C and higher has is considered pointless?

I guess that means tiers 1-B are infinitely more powerful than 1-C

 

[Ryukama]

Yes.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Then same should go for 1-A being infinitely more powerful than 1-B

 

[Ryukama]

Okay. Let's not derail the thread any more though.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

TISSG7Redgrave also told me that Tier 0 can 1 shot infinite High 1-A's instantly.

So shall we close this thread.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Shouldn't we add topics to this thread?

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Shouldn't we add topics to this thread?

Sorry that I forgot about this thread for a long time.

Anyway I have my answer:


The Source Of All is not only the God of the Archie Sonic Verse it is also the God of the Game Sonic Verse and here's why.

http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Archie_Sonic_the_Hedgehog_Issue_80

http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Archie_Sonic_the_Hedgehog_Issue_110

http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Ring_of_Acorns

You might be wondering why did Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy have their appearances changed in Sonic Adventure 1. The reason is because in the Archie Comics which is an alternate canon to the Sonic games, Amy used the Ring of Acorns to become older and that took place between Sonic CD and Sonic Adventure. After that event the Archie Comics branch off to become alternate timelines. "Source Of All" was responsible for Amy, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, other character's existence and their fates. The "Source Of All" existed in the Pre-Super Genesis Wave Timeline. It is superior to High 2-A Enerjak and other characters.

If the Source Of All didn't exist in the first place then Sonic and the others wouldn't have existed.

Before you mention that the Souce Of All got retconned in Post Super Genesis Wave. Remember that Archie Comics were forced to leave it out because of Lawsuits. They didn't want to do that but they had no choice.

To be fair I won't include Source Of All and Gentle Pull because they make this battle a stomp.

I'm thinking about making a Mario and Sonic heroes vs Mario and Sonic villains thread. I wonder how that's gonna turn out.

Since Paper Mario characters are included and that Archie Sonic characters aren't included we should conclude that Mario Verse wins in this circumstance due to Dimentio's ability to clone himself unlimited number of times then using the Star Rod to wish that his clones travel to the past, present and future to overwhelm Solaris and defeat Time Eater then the Sonic Verse is doomed.


You don't have to agree with me though this is my opinion okay. I hope we're good.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Mario beats Sonic. Luigi beats Tails. Wario beats Knuckles. Peach utterly stomps Amy. Yoshi is way too fast for Shadow and could blitz him even in base (ran out of characters for Shadow to face). Bowser destroys Eggman. Bowser Jr. should destroy Metal Sonic now, though I suppose that can be a pretty debatable fight. Silver loses to Kamek. I don't know who Blaze should fight. Donkey Kong? That's the only other relevant character from the series besides Rosalina. If she goes super she should beat him but, I don't think that's in character for here. Every other character who doesn't have a Super form or the power to compete with one gets stomped by any other relevant Mario character. Rosalina makes the super forms a moot point and singlehandedly beats every single main series Sonic character. If we want to add Solaris into it, then we can bring up Dreamy Bowser who solos everyone.

 

[Danibom]

Mario beats Sonic. Luigi beats Tails. Wario beats Knuckles. Peach utterly stomps Amy. Yoshi is way too fast for Shadow and could blitz him even in base (ran out of characters for Shadow to face). Bowser destroys Eggman. Bowser Jr. should destroy Metal Sonic now, though I suppose that can be a pretty debatable fight. Silver loses to Kamek. I don't know who Blaze should fight. Donkey Kong? That's the only other relevant character from the series besides Rosalina. If she goes super she should beat him but, I don't think that's in character for here. Every other character who doesn't have a Super form or the power to compete with one gets stomped by any other relevant Mario character. Rosalina makes the super forms a moot point and singlehandedly beats every single main series Sonic character. If we want to add Solaris into it, then we can bring up Dreamy Bowser who solos everyone.

I agree, Solaris and Time Eater can't solo because there is Dreamy Bowser, Antasma with Dark Stone and Zeekeeper. That 3 characters destroys both Solaris and Time Eater. Mario-verse wins in the end.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Mario beats Sonic. Luigi beats Tails. Wario beats Knuckles. Peach utterly stomps Amy. Yoshi is way too fast for Shadow and could blitz him even in base (ran out of characters for Shadow to face). Bowser destroys Eggman. Bowser Jr. should destroy Metal Sonic now, though I suppose that can be a pretty debatable fight. Silver loses to Kamek. I don't know who Blaze should fight. Donkey Kong? That's the only other relevant character from the series besides Rosalina. If she goes super she should beat him but, I don't think that's in character for here. Every other character who doesn't have a Super form or the power to compete with one gets stomped by any other relevant Mario character. Rosalina makes the super forms a moot point and singlehandedly beats every single main series Sonic character. If we want to add Solaris into it, then we can bring up Dreamy Bowser who solos everyone.

Actually when I made this thread Illumina wasn't included.

Solaris and Illumina are both 2-B. Solaris is omnipresent in time and in order to defeat him he has to be attacked in the past, present and future. You need at least 3 Mario characters, 1 in the past, 1 in the present and 1 in the future to be able to hurt him.

In a random encounter: Mario and Sonic characters wouldn't get their power ups, items, prep time, etc. Solaris solos the Mario verse since he doesn't need prep time to be 2-B. Illumina can solo as well. Sonic Verse curbstomps.

In a prep time circumstance: Bowser can become Dreamy Bowser with the Dream Stone, Paper Mario can use the Pure Hearts and Dimentio can become Super Dimentio with Paper Luigi and the Chaos Heart and the same applies for Count Bleck. They may have a hard time dealing with Super Sonic, Solaris, Illumina but they should be able to time travel and clone themselves with the Star Rod. I'd say that Mario Verse wins with difficulty.


And if anyone brings up "The Gentle Pull' again, a friend I know is going to make a thread on why it's not an official Mario character. Just wait until he makes the thread on this website.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Solaris is infinite in speed, so he gets taken out by Dreamy Bowser. And that's not at ALL what standard battle assumptions mean. In a random encounter they don't get their usual stuff. That sounds like severe downplay, no offense. Only true soloer is Illumina, (discounting GP) and tbh, I have no idea why she's Immeasurable.

Again, no offense, but it seems that you just dislike the Gentle Pull because it guarantees the Marioverse's win.You can't just call a character unofficial. Until he makes the thread, in which I highly doubt it would change anything, then you can't say anything about it. Especially considering two of he biggest vs debating sites, us and OBD, find it a legit character.

 

[Cropfist]

Dreamy Bowser is MFTL+.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Shoot. I meant Dimentio.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

The real cal howard:


With all due respect. I'll explain.

Imagine a war where both sides prepare to fight each other.

Prep time means you gather as much resources and prepare as soon as possible to fight the enemy.

Random encounter means you fight with whatever you have at the time no preparation. If you watched Batman vs Spiderman made by ScrewAttack (one of the few accurate death battles) Batman didn't use the Hell Bat suit when fighting Spiderman and that's why he lost.

About "The Gentle Pull", saying that I dislike the Gentle Pull because it gurantees the Marioverse's win is a logical fallacy. I love Mario as a franchise not only Sonic and I agree that Base Mario would beat Base Sonic even if Base Sonic is 5-B which he is not at the moment. I just disagree with the Gentle Pull being a character. I haven't found Miyamoto's statements about it yet. Nowadays I agree with Rosalina beating Silver because even if we scale Rosalina to Base Mario she still beats Silver nowadays because High 4-C > possibly 5-B though she is rated as Low 2-C.

Also I never said that the Sonic Verse will always beat the Mario verse 100% of the time. I believe that it depends on the circumstances so it can go either way.

Again about Vsbattles and OBD we gotta go by what Miyamoto says since he is the head of the Mario franchise.

Hope you know that I mean no offense to you or other admins reading this okay. Hope we're good.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Solaris is omnipresent in time and in order to defeat him he has to be attacked in the past, present and future. You need at least 3 Mario characters, 1 in the past, 1 in the present and 1 in the future to be able to hurt him.

It wouldn't be necessary. Characters such as Super Dimentio and Count Bleck can easily erase all time alone, Paper Mario scaling to them can also do this, and The Gentle Pull can equally. There isn't need for one in the past, one in the present and one in the future, only one of these alone could attack past, present, and future.

I haven't found Miyamoto's statements about it yet.

Again about Vsbattles and OBD we gotta go by what Miyamoto says since he is the head of the Mario franchise.

Miyamoto isn't required to mention everything that happens in the series. For example, I've never seen Miyamoto talking about Count Bleck, nor does anyone deny that Count Bleck is official in the series. The fact that Miyamoto hasn't said anything about it doesn't invalidate him as an official character.

And if anyone brings up "The Gentle Pull' again, a friend I know is going to make a thread on why it's not an official Mario character. Just wait until he makes the thread on this website.

I'm waiting, but it's probably not going to work out.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

It wouldn't be necessary. Characters such as Super Dimentio and Count Bleck can easily erase all time alone, Paper Mario scaling to them can also do this, and The Gentle Pull can equally. There is no need for one in the past, one in the present and one in the future, only one of these alone could attack past, present, and future.

Me: Then why is Count Bleck rated Low 2-C/2-B. In that case he should be a solid 2-B... his high end speed is Infinite (Given that he has the same power source as Super Dimentio.) I think it's due to the Chaos Heart. Solaris fought in a timeless void so erasing all existing timelines would do nothing to him except that his past timeline where he was just a flame is protected by himself. In order to travel back in time to destroy his flame you have to destroy his 2 forms by attacking his core. I'm not suggesting that he is acausal though since he has been erased from existence. I think Illumina's speed is immeasurable because she Dreamed Maginaryworld into being so she is superior to the Maginaryworld.
Miyamoto isn't required to mention everything that happens in the series. For example, I've never seen Miyamoto talking about Count Bleck, nor does anyone deny that Count Bleck is official in the series. The fact that Miyamoto has not said anything about it does not invalidate him as an official character.

Me: It helps if he talks about it because his fans will understand how the laws of the Mario universes works.
I'm waiting, but it's probably not going to work out.

Me: He's taking his time with making the thread. I'm sure it'll be easy for you and other admins to understand what he's talking about.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Then why is Count Bleck rated Low 2-C/2-B. In that case he should be a solid 2-B... his high end speed is Infinite (Given that he has the same power source as Super Dimentio.) I think it's due to the Chaos Heart. Solaris fought in a timeless void so erasing all existing timelines would do nothing to him except that his past timeline where he was just a flame is protected by himself. In order to travel back in time to destroy his flame you have to destroy his 2 forms by attacking his core. I'm not suggesting that he is acausal though since he has been erased from existence. I think Illumina's speed is immeasurable because she Dreamed Maginaryworld into being so she is superior to the Maginaryworld.

Count Bleck is solid 2-B. He is Low 2-C only without the Chaos Heart.

It helps if he talks about it because his fans will understand how the laws of the Mario universes works.

That doesn't mean he's bound to talk about everything. Again, the fact that The Gentle Pull wasn't mentioned does not invalidate him as an official character.

What "laws"? There is nothing consistent that is applicable at all times to be called "law". The series itself is a mess, it's not like the other series that have canon and continuity.

He's taking his time with making the thread. I'm sure it'll be easy for you and other admins to understand what he's talking about.
Okay, I'll wait. However if the reason for that is "Miyamoto didn't mention The Gentle Pull", I'll warn you that doesn't justify anything.

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Count Bleck is solid 2-B. He is Low 2-C only without the Chaos Heart.

Me: I see. That makes sense.
That doesn't mean he's bound to talk about everything. Again, the fact that The Gentle Pull wasn't mentioned does not invalidate him as an official character.

What "laws"? There is nothing consistent that is applicable at all times to be called "law". The series itself is a mess, it's not like the other series that have canon and continuity.

Me: I meant that real life laws of the universe applies to fiction until fiction makes it's own rules and laws that override the real life laws of the universe/multiverses in fiction.
Okay, I'll wait. However if the reason for that is "Miyamoto didn't mention The Gentle Pull", I'll warn you that doesn't justify anything.
Me: I'm sure he has his own reasons. He'll make it soon.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I doubt a series that doesn't care about continuity and canon would worry about "laws", it's just a total mess. Mario-verse works in the same way as cartoons such as Woody Woodpecker and Bugs Bunny: The "laws" simply "don't exist", since their only goals are to be comic, and not to establish laws or continuity.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Miyamofo's words mean next to nothing on how we rate characters. Author words mean little, unless it's Hideki Kamiya. Evidence being how the creator of Demonbane will swear up and down that they're 2-A, when they're quite obviously not.

 

[PaChi2]

And I thought this was in the olympic games.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Adam

That's not how determining a character tier's or the canoncity of the character work as many of the pages made would not have been made or considered uncanon by that incredibly flawed logic. As Cal and Kevyn stated, it's not the word of God that's used to determine how to rate the character or whether they are official. In fact, due to the character being mentioned in a mainstream platformer Mario game, your entire argument moot. If this is the only reason why you are so unwilling to accept The Pull being in the official series, this thread is ultimately pointless. I'm closing this due to being a controversal match-up and irrelevant topic.