- 10,688
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A disclaimer! This isn't my blog. obviously from the URL, it was made by AdamGregory03. So all the credit goes to him for this blog. I'm gonna go ahead and copy the points over, though, to make the sake of discussion easier.
Now, keep in mind that I don't personally agree with all of the points on here, but I do think there's stuff here that's worth discussing and getting an upgrade for, as Large Star is way lower than Mario's better feats. So without further ado, here's what Adam has to say.
https://versus-compendium.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AdamGregory03/Mario_Revisions_I_guess
Rosalina Scaling
So, for those who don't know, Rosalina is, basically considered a god-tier of the Mario-verse, mainly due to her feat at the ending of Galaxy of shielding Mario, Peach, and Bowser from a supermassive black hole that's described as threatening the fabric of the universe, followed by her seemingly shutting down said black hole and recreating what it destroyed in it's place. Though because the context was basically her protecting the characters from this, it was commonly thought that Mario and co. can't possibly scale to her. Though there's apparently some arguments to be made to support them being somewhat comparable. (Not saying they can outright recreate the universe themselves, but to say that they can scale to someone who can)
The main argument boils down to the fact that Rosalina has been commonly appearing in playable roles since her debut in Galaxy, and in those roles she's not automatically dwarfing other characters in terms of powers or abilities. I know it may sound silly to scale since it's mostly the spin-off titles such as the sports games, but when you think about it, sports are a form of competition in which people need to perform at their best to win - kinda like a battle. And some of those instances do involve characters being able to physically push around or flinch other characters, including Rosalina, most notably the Mario Party games.
Then we have Super Mario 3D World, which adds even further credence to this. Sure, Rosalina isn't a part of the main game, unlocked in the post-game instead. But once you do unlock her, she's not portrayed as any greater than the four main characters. She can do anything they can, and they can do anything she can, including being able to fight against the same enemies and bosses without them being stomped any harder.
I admit all of this might be pretty iffy, but they are arguments you could make for the Mario cast to scale to Rosalina. Though this is made more consistent through our next subject here...
Addressing Counter-Arguments
"But Paper Mario isn't canon! It's established as a separate game series than the main ones! Why're you even bothering to bring it up?"
Because Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam exists.
All right, so for those who don't know, the plot of the game is that there's thing magical disaster thing called the Chaos Heart that's stated to be capable of consuming the universe and that whoever wields it can alter all of existence how they see fit once it's done doing so. And we see an example of this power when a massive void forms in the Sammer's Kingdom that destroys it, leaving behind nothing in it's wake until the kingdom is restored after the game's ending. And yes, this void is caused by the Chaos Heart and stated that it will "swallow all of existence" in the end. Yet, as you can see from the feat linked above, Paper Mario, Peach, and Bowser all manage to survive the destruction of the Sammer's Kingdom, only being knocked out by the void and ending up in another realm. And this isn't even the only example of a universal feat in Paper Mario either. In the ending of Color Splash, Huey takes the black paint to fill out the entirety of the sky, this black paint being the same stuff Bowser coats himself in for the final boss battle, of which Mario is able to damage him.
Normally, this would mean nothing to the canon Mario-verse, as Paper Mario is one of the few exceptions to Miyamoto's "Looney Tunes canon" comment, being actually established as a different reality from the mainline games. However, in Paper Jam, the game's entire premise is the two different realities coming together and joining forces on both the hero and villain sides. Not only are the three-dimensional Mario and Luigi not immediately dwarfed in comparison to the paper plumber (similar to the case with Rosalina in 3D World), but regular Mario and Luigi are clearly just as capable of damaging the same opponents as Paper Mario, including Paper Bowser, who becomes a sort of armor for the regular Bowser for the final boss. Considering Paper Bowser was also present before and after the destruction of the Sammers Kingdom, and that the Mario bros. are able to still hurt him without any kind of power-ups or enhancements... Well, it doesn't get more basic than that for scaling.
Addressing Counter-Arguments
Now, one thing that often comes up when addressing Mario is VS is the debate of whether or not feats from the Mario Party series should be considered legitimate. Perhaps most prominently Mario Party 6's Black Hole Boogie, in which the characters are outright resisting the pull of a black hole (And yes I'm considering it a legit black hole since we can see light being sucked into it). But there's also things like Bowser's Block Battle in Mario Party 9, in which Bowser's casually floating in front of another black hole, this one sucking in large planetoids, only falling in when he's defeated.
The Party series would of course also fall in line with Miyamoto's loose canon statement, and it's not like there's anything that implies they're non-canon or that contradicts any of the other games in the series. But on the other hand, most people don't look into these because... Well, most of this stuff comes from minigames. And while we have minigames that involve escaping black holes, we also have minigames about just doing chores. Rather inconsistent in their displays, I know.
However, in spite of me acknowledging that, I'm actually going to argue for Mario Party being included as viable, and for the sole reason of... Well, the Mario Party stuff really isn't as powerful as the aforementioned stuff we covered.
Let me put it like this: Resisting/escaping the pull of a black hole would normally be a feat that puts a character at Faster Than Light speeds. However, our current ranking for Mario characters lists them as Beyond Massively Faster Than Light (Note from Zephyr: BMFTL is Versus Compendium's term that equivalents to this site's MFTL+) for reasons that don't necessarily pertain to black holes. And most of the Mario cast can scale to each other normally anyhow, regardless if they were around for the proper minigames. So if anything, the Mario Party stuff can be viewed more as minor feats to add consistency.
Plus there's also stuff outside of the minigames, like Bowser and Jr.'s clown cars flying alongside stars travelling across the sky or the fake Millenium Star flying in from the center of the universe. And keep in mind that there are some minigames that are basically minigames just the characters beating the crap out of each other.Meaning even characters like Daisy and Waluigi, who have little screen time outside of these games, are still portrayed as physically on par with the rest of the cast, therefor their feats outside of the Party series. And as long as these types of minigames are still in the series, I'd say it holds enough weight for anyone who's playable in these games to scale.
So, yeah. I'm pro party.
Dreamy Bowser
...Oh boy, this one...
Perhaps without a doubt the one aspect of Mario in VS that has caused the most controversy in the community. For those unaware, in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, Bowser obtains a form called Dreamy Bowser which he obtains from inhaling the shattered remains of the Dream Stone. The Dream Stone is, as it's name implies, an item that is fueled by and that encompases dreams. And this game isn't the only time dreams come up as a factor. The manual for Mario Party 5 has some interesting tidbits about this whole thing. The plot of the game revolves around a Dream Depot, which the manual states is where every dream in the Mushroom Kingdom winds up. The manual even implies that dreams are universes in themselves, mainly in regards to the Future Dream board, which has plenty of stars and even constellations in the background.
Now, can we definitively say that, every dream someone in the Mario-verse has is automatically the same size of our own universe? Well, that's impossible to determine as we don't have much to go off other than Future Dream allowing you to "explore the universe". But the fact that Future Dream does have stars and constellations in it is still worth something, and it's not even the only example of constellations being within a dream world. Sure, constellations aren't indications of universes, typically it usually only results in Star to Solar System level stuff. But keep in mind though, if one dream world is big enough to contain numerous stars and some constellations, then what's there to say this can't also apply to other dream worlds?
And in that sense, going back to Mario Party 5, the manual states that the Dream Depot is where the dreams of everyone go to. And assuming that does in fact mean everyone, then that has to count for not only the residents of the Mario-verse's Earth (including both humans and other species), but also the fact that aliens exist. And... well, okay honestly, this is some pretty complicated stuff that's already covered pretty well in depth in this blog post, as well as some other cases of non-dream-related alternate universe shenanigans.
...Oh, right, Dreamy Bowser. Well, basically, Bowser is amped by the Dream Stone, which has control over dreams and likely multiple of them, and dreams are at least their own systems. Mario and Luigi can harm Dreamy Bowser. Pretty blatant, though it whether or not this can be counted as legit universal, a minor feat for consistency, or potentially higher is up to how many dreams we think the Dream Stone encompasses when Bowser gets amped by it. Though there is one thing I want to cover about it...
Addressing Counter Arguments
So remember that second counter-argument I brought up for the Rosalina thing? Well if you don't:
In 3D World, Rosalina can get hurt by Goombas! So what, are GOOMBAS universal now?
Well, yeah, actually you could argue that.
We already used this logic for the Piranha Plant page, I'm aware. After all, the enemies are still capable of damaging the Mario crew in general gameplay, though this could be chocked up to gameplay mechanics. What couldn't though is the fact that, in the Mario & Luigi 3DS remakes, there are side modes added in that involve armies of mooks being able to take on the same opponents as the Mario Bros., perhaps most notably being the Superstar Saga remake with the Bowser's Minions side story. It's also been stated that, canonically, while the Mario peeps tend to go down rather easily, they don't actually die from their attacks, meaning they're able to survive them to some extent.
And furthermore, there are also plenty of examples of common Mario enemies competing against the Mario cast aside from direct combat. Enemies like Shy Guys, Hammer Bros., Boos, and Fishy Boop-I mean, Spikes have been playable in numerous spin-off titles, and we even got a playable Goomba in Super Mario Party. And before anyone says that shouldn't count, I again must refer you to my last point while covering Mario Party about how there are minigames that involve the characters physically fighting against each other.
Again, this is something that would kinda make sense when you think about it considering these feats. Funny how one of the most prevalent arguments against Mario being powerful is now being used for the exact opposite effect.
But who DOESN'T scale?
Obviously, I know a lot of what I said may sound like a stretch, since by this logic, that would mean Pauline is also up there in the ranks because she just got added to Mario Tennis. You can probably see how someone wouldn't really buy that. So as much as I would love to say Jimmy T. from WarioWare is universal for the reasons listed above, I think we should also put down a few standards for this scaling, so that way things don't get too out of hand. Basically, I suggest that there be two questions we must answer before determining if a character scales or not:
Conclusion
So tl;dr:
A note from Zephyr: Megabug was supposedly warping the fabric of the Mario Universe, if that helps to provide consistency, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UojUuclKao&feature=youtu.be&t=382. Personally, I think this is untrue, but maybe I'm wrong. Zephyr's Personal Thoughts: Rosalina scaling is super wierd, but I think a 3-A rating based on Sammer's Kingdom is more accurate.
Now, keep in mind that I don't personally agree with all of the points on here, but I do think there's stuff here that's worth discussing and getting an upgrade for, as Large Star is way lower than Mario's better feats. So without further ado, here's what Adam has to say.
https://versus-compendium.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AdamGregory03/Mario_Revisions_I_guess
Rosalina Scaling
So, for those who don't know, Rosalina is, basically considered a god-tier of the Mario-verse, mainly due to her feat at the ending of Galaxy of shielding Mario, Peach, and Bowser from a supermassive black hole that's described as threatening the fabric of the universe, followed by her seemingly shutting down said black hole and recreating what it destroyed in it's place. Though because the context was basically her protecting the characters from this, it was commonly thought that Mario and co. can't possibly scale to her. Though there's apparently some arguments to be made to support them being somewhat comparable. (Not saying they can outright recreate the universe themselves, but to say that they can scale to someone who can)
The main argument boils down to the fact that Rosalina has been commonly appearing in playable roles since her debut in Galaxy, and in those roles she's not automatically dwarfing other characters in terms of powers or abilities. I know it may sound silly to scale since it's mostly the spin-off titles such as the sports games, but when you think about it, sports are a form of competition in which people need to perform at their best to win - kinda like a battle. And some of those instances do involve characters being able to physically push around or flinch other characters, including Rosalina, most notably the Mario Party games.
Then we have Super Mario 3D World, which adds even further credence to this. Sure, Rosalina isn't a part of the main game, unlocked in the post-game instead. But once you do unlock her, she's not portrayed as any greater than the four main characters. She can do anything they can, and they can do anything she can, including being able to fight against the same enemies and bosses without them being stomped any harder.
I admit all of this might be pretty iffy, but they are arguments you could make for the Mario cast to scale to Rosalina. Though this is made more consistent through our next subject here...
Addressing Counter-Arguments
- Rosalina's feat was WAY above anything any other character in the series has shown!
- There are lots of characters in fiction that have superior concrete feats to other characters that those other characters still scale to on account of being shown as comparable to them. There's no reason Mario should be different. By this logic, Vegeta and Frieza still fighting on par with Goku is PIS because his fight with Beerus was better than any feat they've shown before that.
- In 3D World, Rosalina can get hurt by Goombas! So what, are GOOMBAS universal now?
- Uh... Actually, we'll get back to this.
"But Paper Mario isn't canon! It's established as a separate game series than the main ones! Why're you even bothering to bring it up?"
Because Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam exists.
All right, so for those who don't know, the plot of the game is that there's thing magical disaster thing called the Chaos Heart that's stated to be capable of consuming the universe and that whoever wields it can alter all of existence how they see fit once it's done doing so. And we see an example of this power when a massive void forms in the Sammer's Kingdom that destroys it, leaving behind nothing in it's wake until the kingdom is restored after the game's ending. And yes, this void is caused by the Chaos Heart and stated that it will "swallow all of existence" in the end. Yet, as you can see from the feat linked above, Paper Mario, Peach, and Bowser all manage to survive the destruction of the Sammer's Kingdom, only being knocked out by the void and ending up in another realm. And this isn't even the only example of a universal feat in Paper Mario either. In the ending of Color Splash, Huey takes the black paint to fill out the entirety of the sky, this black paint being the same stuff Bowser coats himself in for the final boss battle, of which Mario is able to damage him.
Normally, this would mean nothing to the canon Mario-verse, as Paper Mario is one of the few exceptions to Miyamoto's "Looney Tunes canon" comment, being actually established as a different reality from the mainline games. However, in Paper Jam, the game's entire premise is the two different realities coming together and joining forces on both the hero and villain sides. Not only are the three-dimensional Mario and Luigi not immediately dwarfed in comparison to the paper plumber (similar to the case with Rosalina in 3D World), but regular Mario and Luigi are clearly just as capable of damaging the same opponents as Paper Mario, including Paper Bowser, who becomes a sort of armor for the regular Bowser for the final boss. Considering Paper Bowser was also present before and after the destruction of the Sammers Kingdom, and that the Mario bros. are able to still hurt him without any kind of power-ups or enhancements... Well, it doesn't get more basic than that for scaling.
Addressing Counter-Arguments
- Tippi could've just teleported Mario away from the destruction!
- There's nothing indicating that she did that. Tippi's teleportation is accompanied by a sound cue, which did not play during the destruction of the Sammers Kingdom. Even if she did, the Paper peeps were still knocked out afterwards, meaning he had to have survived it to some extent.
Now, one thing that often comes up when addressing Mario is VS is the debate of whether or not feats from the Mario Party series should be considered legitimate. Perhaps most prominently Mario Party 6's Black Hole Boogie, in which the characters are outright resisting the pull of a black hole (And yes I'm considering it a legit black hole since we can see light being sucked into it). But there's also things like Bowser's Block Battle in Mario Party 9, in which Bowser's casually floating in front of another black hole, this one sucking in large planetoids, only falling in when he's defeated.
The Party series would of course also fall in line with Miyamoto's loose canon statement, and it's not like there's anything that implies they're non-canon or that contradicts any of the other games in the series. But on the other hand, most people don't look into these because... Well, most of this stuff comes from minigames. And while we have minigames that involve escaping black holes, we also have minigames about just doing chores. Rather inconsistent in their displays, I know.
However, in spite of me acknowledging that, I'm actually going to argue for Mario Party being included as viable, and for the sole reason of... Well, the Mario Party stuff really isn't as powerful as the aforementioned stuff we covered.
Let me put it like this: Resisting/escaping the pull of a black hole would normally be a feat that puts a character at Faster Than Light speeds. However, our current ranking for Mario characters lists them as Beyond Massively Faster Than Light (Note from Zephyr: BMFTL is Versus Compendium's term that equivalents to this site's MFTL+) for reasons that don't necessarily pertain to black holes. And most of the Mario cast can scale to each other normally anyhow, regardless if they were around for the proper minigames. So if anything, the Mario Party stuff can be viewed more as minor feats to add consistency.
Plus there's also stuff outside of the minigames, like Bowser and Jr.'s clown cars flying alongside stars travelling across the sky or the fake Millenium Star flying in from the center of the universe. And keep in mind that there are some minigames that are basically minigames just the characters beating the crap out of each other.Meaning even characters like Daisy and Waluigi, who have little screen time outside of these games, are still portrayed as physically on par with the rest of the cast, therefor their feats outside of the Party series. And as long as these types of minigames are still in the series, I'd say it holds enough weight for anyone who's playable in these games to scale.
So, yeah. I'm pro party.
Dreamy Bowser
...Oh boy, this one...
Perhaps without a doubt the one aspect of Mario in VS that has caused the most controversy in the community. For those unaware, in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, Bowser obtains a form called Dreamy Bowser which he obtains from inhaling the shattered remains of the Dream Stone. The Dream Stone is, as it's name implies, an item that is fueled by and that encompases dreams. And this game isn't the only time dreams come up as a factor. The manual for Mario Party 5 has some interesting tidbits about this whole thing. The plot of the game revolves around a Dream Depot, which the manual states is where every dream in the Mushroom Kingdom winds up. The manual even implies that dreams are universes in themselves, mainly in regards to the Future Dream board, which has plenty of stars and even constellations in the background.
Now, can we definitively say that, every dream someone in the Mario-verse has is automatically the same size of our own universe? Well, that's impossible to determine as we don't have much to go off other than Future Dream allowing you to "explore the universe". But the fact that Future Dream does have stars and constellations in it is still worth something, and it's not even the only example of constellations being within a dream world. Sure, constellations aren't indications of universes, typically it usually only results in Star to Solar System level stuff. But keep in mind though, if one dream world is big enough to contain numerous stars and some constellations, then what's there to say this can't also apply to other dream worlds?
And in that sense, going back to Mario Party 5, the manual states that the Dream Depot is where the dreams of everyone go to. And assuming that does in fact mean everyone, then that has to count for not only the residents of the Mario-verse's Earth (including both humans and other species), but also the fact that aliens exist. And... well, okay honestly, this is some pretty complicated stuff that's already covered pretty well in depth in this blog post, as well as some other cases of non-dream-related alternate universe shenanigans.
...Oh, right, Dreamy Bowser. Well, basically, Bowser is amped by the Dream Stone, which has control over dreams and likely multiple of them, and dreams are at least their own systems. Mario and Luigi can harm Dreamy Bowser. Pretty blatant, though it whether or not this can be counted as legit universal, a minor feat for consistency, or potentially higher is up to how many dreams we think the Dream Stone encompasses when Bowser gets amped by it. Though there is one thing I want to cover about it...
Addressing Counter Arguments
- Bowser is too stupid to use the full potential of the Dream Stone!
- Of course, this is from the same guy that legitimately thinks Final Fantasy is sub-bullet level, so he's not someone who really knows what he's talking about. But because there are a few people that think of him as credible (for some reason), yes, Bowser is a meathead. But he's a meathead that hates Mario, and he's got an opportunity to finally be rid of him. What reason would he have for not going all-out with this power, or at least why wouldn't he attempt to do so against a guy he wants to get rid of?
- And before anyone says anything, I don't really care whether or not Dyph sees this or what his stance on it is as I don't take anything he says from a VS standpoint even remotely seriously.
- Of course, this is from the same guy that legitimately thinks Final Fantasy is sub-bullet level, so he's not someone who really knows what he's talking about. But because there are a few people that think of him as credible (for some reason), yes, Bowser is a meathead. But he's a meathead that hates Mario, and he's got an opportunity to finally be rid of him. What reason would he have for not going all-out with this power, or at least why wouldn't he attempt to do so against a guy he wants to get rid of?
So remember that second counter-argument I brought up for the Rosalina thing? Well if you don't:
In 3D World, Rosalina can get hurt by Goombas! So what, are GOOMBAS universal now?
Well, yeah, actually you could argue that.
We already used this logic for the Piranha Plant page, I'm aware. After all, the enemies are still capable of damaging the Mario crew in general gameplay, though this could be chocked up to gameplay mechanics. What couldn't though is the fact that, in the Mario & Luigi 3DS remakes, there are side modes added in that involve armies of mooks being able to take on the same opponents as the Mario Bros., perhaps most notably being the Superstar Saga remake with the Bowser's Minions side story. It's also been stated that, canonically, while the Mario peeps tend to go down rather easily, they don't actually die from their attacks, meaning they're able to survive them to some extent.
And furthermore, there are also plenty of examples of common Mario enemies competing against the Mario cast aside from direct combat. Enemies like Shy Guys, Hammer Bros., Boos, and Fishy Boop-I mean, Spikes have been playable in numerous spin-off titles, and we even got a playable Goomba in Super Mario Party. And before anyone says that shouldn't count, I again must refer you to my last point while covering Mario Party about how there are minigames that involve the characters physically fighting against each other.
Again, this is something that would kinda make sense when you think about it considering these feats. Funny how one of the most prevalent arguments against Mario being powerful is now being used for the exact opposite effect.
But who DOESN'T scale?
Obviously, I know a lot of what I said may sound like a stretch, since by this logic, that would mean Pauline is also up there in the ranks because she just got added to Mario Tennis. You can probably see how someone wouldn't really buy that. So as much as I would love to say Jimmy T. from WarioWare is universal for the reasons listed above, I think we should also put down a few standards for this scaling, so that way things don't get too out of hand. Basically, I suggest that there be two questions we must answer before determining if a character scales or not:
- Does the character show combat capabilities or abilities that can be used in a fight? - Like how Rosalina scaling also comes from her being playable in 3D World. To use the example of Pauline again, outside of Mario Tennis, the only things we've really seen her do in other games are get kidnapped, sing, and be a mayor. So that would be a point against her scaling.
- Does the character consistently compete against anyone who does scale? - I.E., how recurring bosses such as the Koopalings and Boom Boom are able to fight against Mario and the crew, leading to Toadette's playable role in New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe meaning she can compete with them and alongside the Mario Bros. Therefor, that would be a point for Toadette scaling. (Though reminder, even combat-focused Mario Party minigames would count here) If we haven't seen the character take on even a Goomba or any other mooks, that would be a point against it.
Conclusion
So tl;dr:
- At least Multi-Galaxy to Universal or higher Mario peeps is legit, consistent, and explainable.
- Pretty much anyone who's consistent or has shown to be comparable to the major characters can scale.
A note from Zephyr: Megabug was supposedly warping the fabric of the Mario Universe, if that helps to provide consistency, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UojUuclKao&feature=youtu.be&t=382. Personally, I think this is untrue, but maybe I'm wrong. Zephyr's Personal Thoughts: Rosalina scaling is super wierd, but I think a 3-A rating based on Sammer's Kingdom is more accurate.
