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Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

Tatsumi504 said:
well we might just give everything random character in fiction who reads information about others plot manipulation then, or anyone with R>f transcendence as well
Click to expand...
Add faith manipulation to that list and you get plot Manipulation. Umineko, most verse with plot manipulation is basically everything you just listed along with faith manipulation. That his why Yuri tried removing it from the wiki
Tatsumi504 said:
How does calling himself the Almighty god equate to omnipotence?
Click to expand...
It depends on the translation, the Viz translation uses omnipotent God
Tatsumi504 said:
Can you make a CRT to remove that
Click to expand...
Best thing would be to change justification
 
Lormac_CC said:
Add faith manipulation to that list and you get plot Manipulation. Umineko, most verse with plot manipulation is basically everything you just listed along with faith manipulation. That his why Yuri tried removing it from the wiki

It depends on the translation, the Viz translation uses omnipotent God

Best thing would be to change justification
Click to expand...
Confused are you saying is it just fate manipulation not plot manipulation or something else
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Confused are you saying is it just fate manipulation not plot manipulation or something else
Click to expand...
That is not what I am saying. Thank Yuri for dropping verses with plot manipulation and their feats

What feats give a character Plot Manipulation?​

For this one, I just decided to pick 5 verses among the most known with this ability and will explain the reasonning for their characters' Plot Manipulation:

Instant Death: Some characters have an especially strong "fate value", which makes them favored by Fate and its whims. It has been compared to the characters being protagonists of their own movie.

Umineko no Naku Koro Ni: Meta Beings are on the side "that brings about fate", with the Witches who "create fate and play with it" manipulating "the side that gets tossed about by fate"/Human Domain. They see said domain as a mere gameboard.

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou: The users can create worlds outside the main universe, which are fictional because someone created them.

The Unwritten: Everything comes from the world being Leviathan's dream, and that little guy dreams of the stories written by humanity, and whatever he dreams become true.

Homestuck: The concept of "Canon" is an in-verse concept strongly tied to relevance and a specific character's existence. Some characters can create "retcons" which change fate and rewrite causality (being outright compared to a causality-reset device in the latter case). Some other can manipulate/hijack "the narrative", which is mainly a matter of perspective and mind shitz.

Would have liked to include Marvel, SCP or DC, but I either would need to limit myself to one example or expand on the countless ones there is, which would be time-wasting.
 
Lormac_CC said:
That is not what I am saying. Thank Yuri for dropping verses with plot manipulation and their feats

What feats give a character Plot Manipulation?​

For this one, I just decided to pick 5 verses among the most known with this ability and will explain the reasonning for their characters' Plot Manipulation:

Instant Death: Some characters have an especially strong "fate value", which makes them favored by Fate and its whims. It has been compared to the characters being protagonists of their own movie.

Umineko no Naku Koro Ni: Meta Beings are on the side "that brings about fate", with the Witches who "create fate and play with it" manipulating "the side that gets tossed about by fate"/Human Domain. They see said domain as a mere gameboard.

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou: The users can create worlds outside the main universe, which are fictional because someone created them.

The Unwritten: Everything comes from the world being Leviathan's dream, and that little guy dreams of the stories written by humanity, and whatever he dreams become true.

Homestuck: The concept of "Canon" is an in-verse concept strongly tied to relevance and a specific character's existence. Some characters can create "retcons" which change fate and rewrite causality (being outright compared to a causality-reset device in the latter case). Some other can manipulate/hijack "the narrative", which is mainly a matter of perspective and mind shitz.

Would have liked to include Marvel, SCP or DC, but I either would need to limit myself to one example or expand on the countless ones there is, which would be time-wasting.
Click to expand...
If these things are accepted as Plot manipulation and Wiki rejects MGF statements then I don't know what to say. Well I will see what other supporters will say about Getting plot manipulation for MGF gods atleast they should be able to agree by seeing this.
 
Lormac_CC said:
Add faith manipulation to that list and you get plot Manipulation. Umineko, most verse with plot manipulation is basically everything you just listed along with faith manipulation. That his why Yuri tried removing it from the wiki

It depends on the translation, the Viz translation uses omnipotent God

Best thing would be to change justification
Click to expand...
There's literally no justification for plot manipulation in magi at all. You can view the world as a story from the sacred palace but you can't affect the narrative in anyway.

Hold up. Are you saying a combination of R>f transcendence and fate manipulation can give plot manipulation?
 
Tatsumi504 said:
There's literally no justification for plot manipulation in magi at all. You can view the world as a story from the sacred palace but you can't affect the narrative in anyway.

Hold up. Are you saying a combination of R>f transcendence and fate manipulation can give plot manipulation?
Click to expand...
Lormac_CC said:
That is not what I am saying. Thank Yuri for dropping verses with plot manipulation and their feats

What feats give a character Plot Manipulation?​

For this one, I just decided to pick 5 verses among the most known with this ability and will explain the reasonning for their characters' Plot Manipulation:

Instant Death: Some characters have an especially strong "fate value", which makes them favored by Fate and its whims. It has been compared to the characters being protagonists of their own movie.

Umineko no Naku Koro Ni: Meta Beings are on the side "that brings about fate", with the Witches who "create fate and play with it" manipulating "the side that gets tossed about by fate"/Human Domain. They see said domain as a mere gameboard.

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou: The users can create worlds outside the main universe, which are fictional because someone created them.

The Unwritten: Everything comes from the world being Leviathan's dream, and that little guy dreams of the stories written by humanity, and whatever he dreams become true.

Homestuck: The concept of "Canon" is an in-verse concept strongly tied to relevance and a specific character's existence. Some characters can create "retcons" which change fate and rewrite causality (being outright compared to a causality-reset device in the latter case). Some other can manipulate/hijack "the narrative", which is mainly a matter of perspective and mind shitz.

Would have liked to include Marvel, SCP or DC, but I either would need to limit myself to one example or expand on the countless ones there is, which would be time-wasting.
Click to expand...
He/she saying other verses also has same set up
 
再び視線を俺へ向け、 彼は言った。
「人にわかりやすくたとえれば、 私どもは劇場の興行師。 悲劇も喜劇 も、すべては人生という舞台で繰り広げられる演目だ。 観劇すれば、思 考を働かせ、思想を抱き、 哲学することもあろう。されど、自らの嗜好 で、悲劇と喜劇に差をつける興行師は愚鈍なのだ」
「なるほど。上演されてさえいればいいというわけだ」
「然り。演目に貴賤はない。 喜劇も悲劇も等しく素晴らしきかな。 上演 を続けること、すなわち舞台の秩序を維持することが、 神の命題。 その 結果、たまたま悲劇が多数であっただけのこと。 私どもに、 人を害しよ うという目的はない」
当然のことのように深化神は語る。
「舞台じゃない。 人々はこの世界で生きている。 彼らの苦しみは本物」
「彼女のように、 役者に心奪われる興行師も存在するものだ。 あげくの 果てには、自ら舞台に上がる始末。 誠に酔狂なことだ」
ミーシャの言葉を、 ディルフレッドはそう一蹴した。
「されど、苦しみも、 喜びも、 永遠ではない。 人生の幕が下りれば役者 は消え、そして新たな役があてがわれ、 再び舞台に上がるのだ。 そこ に、なんの憂いがあろうか?」
生真面目な顔で、 男は言う。 憂いなどありはしないと、 彼は心の底から信じきっている。

Turning his gaze on me again, he said,
"To put it simply, we are theater performers. Tragedies and comedies are all plays that take place on the stage of life. When we see a play, we may think, we may ponder, we may philosophize. But the showman who makes a difference between tragedy and comedy according to his own taste is a fool."
"I see. As long as it is performed, that is all that matters."
"It's true. There is no high or low ranking in performance. Comedy and tragedy are equally wonderful. God's mission is to maintain the order of the stage, to keep the performances going. The result is that tragedies happen to be the most common. We have no intention of harming anyone."
God the Deepening speaks as if it were a matter of course.
"This is not a stage. People live in this world. Their suffering is real."
"There are entertainers like her who are captivated by actors. She even went on stage herself. She is truly a madwoman."
Misha's words were dismissed by Dilfred.
"Yet neither suffering nor joy is eternal. At the end of life, the actor disappears, and a new role is assigned, and the actor is back on stage. What is there to be sad about?"
Says the man with a serious face. He is convinced from the bottom of his heart that there is no such thing as sorrow.

「深化神曰く、神にとって世界は劇場の舞台らしいが、さしずめお前は興行主が依怙贔屓えこひいきで割り振った主役といったところか。役柄は大層立派だが、当の役者が大根ではな」

"According to the god of deepening, the world is a theater stage for the gods, and you, in other words, are a leading role assigned to you by an entertainer with prejudice and favoritism. The role is splendid, but the actor is a raddest of the radishes."

After seeing above Plot manipulation scenarios MGF should get plot manipulation based on these explanations.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
再び視線を俺へ向け、 彼は言った。
「人にわかりやすくたとえれば、 私どもは劇場の興行師。 悲劇も喜劇 も、すべては人生という舞台で繰り広げられる演目だ。 観劇すれば、思 考を働かせ、思想を抱き、 哲学することもあろう。されど、自らの嗜好 で、悲劇と喜劇に差をつける興行師は愚鈍なのだ」
「なるほど。上演されてさえいればいいというわけだ」
「然り。演目に貴賤はない。 喜劇も悲劇も等しく素晴らしきかな。 上演 を続けること、すなわち舞台の秩序を維持することが、 神の命題。 その 結果、たまたま悲劇が多数であっただけのこと。 私どもに、 人を害しよ うという目的はない」
当然のことのように深化神は語る。
「舞台じゃない。 人々はこの世界で生きている。 彼らの苦しみは本物」
「彼女のように、 役者に心奪われる興行師も存在するものだ。 あげくの 果てには、自ら舞台に上がる始末。 誠に酔狂なことだ」
ミーシャの言葉を、 ディルフレッドはそう一蹴した。
「されど、苦しみも、 喜びも、 永遠ではない。 人生の幕が下りれば役者 は消え、そして新たな役があてがわれ、 再び舞台に上がるのだ。 そこ に、なんの憂いがあろうか?」
生真面目な顔で、 男は言う。 憂いなどありはしないと、 彼は心の底から信じきっている。

Turning his gaze on me again, he said,
"To put it simply, we are theater performers. Tragedies and comedies are all plays that take place on the stage of life. When we see a play, we may think, we may ponder, we may philosophize. But the showman who makes a difference between tragedy and comedy according to his own taste is a fool."
"I see. As long as it is performed, that is all that matters."
"It's true. There is no high or low ranking in performance. Comedy and tragedy are equally wonderful. God's mission is to maintain the order of the stage, to keep the performances going. The result is that tragedies happen to be the most common. We have no intention of harming anyone."
God the Deepening speaks as if it were a matter of course.
"This is not a stage. People live in this world. Their suffering is real."
"There are entertainers like her who are captivated by actors. She even went on stage herself. She is truly a madwoman."
Misha's words were dismissed by Dilfred.
"Yet neither suffering nor joy is eternal. At the end of life, the actor disappears, and a new role is assigned, and the actor is back on stage. What is there to be sad about?"
Says the man with a serious face. He is convinced from the bottom of his heart that there is no such thing as sorrow.

「深化神曰く、神にとって世界は劇場の舞台らしいが、さしずめお前は興行主が依怙贔屓えこひいきで割り振った主役といったところか。役柄は大層立派だが、当の役者が大根ではな」

"According to the god of deepening, the world is a theater stage for the gods, and you, in other words, are a leading role assigned to you by an entertainer with prejudice and favoritism. The role is splendid, but the actor is a raddest of the radishes."

After seeing above Plot manipulation scenarios MGF should get plot manipulation based on these explanations.
Click to expand...
That was just an analogy used to say that the gods maintain reality/order at all costs without caring about what happens to the people, as they are beings that arent supposed to have emotions and just be impartial toward Order instead. It shouldn't be taken literally. And they don't transcend people either.
 
Last edited:
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
That was just an analogy used to say that the gods maintain reality/order at all costs without caring about what happens to the people, as they are beings that arent supposed to have emotions and just be impartial toward Order instead. It shouldn't be taken literally. And they don't transcend people either.
Click to expand...
Eques Transcends the world though.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
That was just an analogy used to say that the gods maintain reality/order at all costs without caring about what happens to the people, as they are beings that arent supposed to have emotions and just be impartial toward Order instead. It shouldn't be taken literally. And they don't transcend people either.
Click to expand...
I think is not only analogy for "without caring about what happens to the people"

Tragedies and comedies in here is phenomenon/event that happen in the world. And all of it is play in the stage it will make a causality and storyline

And order is govern and maintaining the world, order also determining and ordering the world. So i think order can be plot because it was sequence of the world
en.m.wikipedia.org

Plot (narrative) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Sasha asked Dilfred if gods dont care about people

Dilfred proceeds to answer "Let me say in another way you'll understand", and then says the above quotes

I.e an analogy to get his point across.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
You dont gain plothax just by transcending something, is my point.
Click to expand...
No i wasn't claiming Transcending is plot. But isn't Eques maintained complete order of the world.
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Send the quote
Click to expand...
「深化神曰く、神にとって世界は劇場の舞台らしいが、さしずめお前は興行主が依怙贔屓えこひいきで割り振った主役といったところか。役柄は大層立派だが、当の役者が大根ではな」

"According to the god of deepening, the world is a theater stage for the gods, and you, in other words, are a leading role assigned to you by an entertainer with prejudice and favoritism. The role is splendid, but the actor is a raddest of the radishes."
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
No i wasn't claiming Transcending is plot. But isn't Eques maintained complete order of the world.

「深化神曰く、神にとって世界は劇場の舞台らしいが、さしずめお前は興行主が依怙贔屓えこひいきで割り振った主役といったところか。役柄は大層立派だが、当の役者が大根ではな」

"According to the god of deepening, the world is a theater stage for the gods, and you, in other words, are a leading role assigned to you by an entertainer with prejudice and favoritism. The role is splendid, but the actor is a raddest of the radishes."
Click to expand...
That is just going back to Dilfred's analogy. I dont see how its any different.

The world cannot live without Eques, as he embodies several essential orders/concepts that maintains the existence of the Militia World. At best I can see this being Higher-Dimensional Existence, which makes sense now that I think about.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
That is just going back to Dilfred's analogy. I dont see how its any different.

The world cannot live without Eques, as he embodies several essential orders/concepts that maintains the existence of the Militia World. At best I can see this being Higher-Dimensional Existence, which makes sense now that I think about.
Click to expand...
「奴は長きにわたり、この世界を支配していた。＜運命の歯車＞を回し、秩序を司り、俺たちに争いと絶望を強制した。世界の理は、滅びへと傾いていた。すべてとは言わぬ。だが、多くの理不尽が奴の手によるものだった。今回の戦いも、二千年前の大戦も、数多の争いが、秩序という名の歯車が遠因だ」

"He has ruled this world for a long time. He turned the wheels of fate, presided over order, and forced us to struggle and despair. The world's reason was bent on destruction. Not all. But many of them were his handiwork. This battle, the war of 2,000 years ago, and many other conflicts are the result of a cog in the wheel of order."

Order & fate are different things. Gods sees order of the world as play but fate is different thing but is stated Eques manipulated both
 
「神は秩序だ。代行者もまた同じ存在だろう。 未来神ナフ タが見る数多の未来は、その秩序によって構成されてい る。 どれだけの力を持とうと秩序たる神には、秩序だった 未来を覆すことはできまい」

"God is order. The Agent would be the same being. The many futures that Nafta, the god of the future, sees are structured by that order. No matter how much power he may have, the ordered God cannot overturn the ordered future."

「わたくしたち神は、この世界の秩序は、 流れゆく川のよ うなもの。 その水を途中で分水することはできても、本流 が変わることはなく、ましてそれは堰き止められるほど穏 やかな流れでもありません」

"We God, the order of this world is like a flowing river. We can divert its waters in the middle, but the main current never changes, much less is it a gentle stream that can be dammed."

Pretty much order is not something like just fate manipulation. It's pretty much different from that
 
I never said Order is fate, although it can be (God of Fate). Eques manipulates the world and Order through fatehax, as the scan says (yes he can manipulate Order of Fate through fatehax). It doesn't really imply plothax.

I think Magi gods have plothax because "protagonist of a story" and "author" are directly used as a comparison between gods and humans, which implies some degree of metafiction.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
I never said Order is fate, although it can be (God of Fate). Eques manipulates the world and Order through fatehax, as the scan says (yes he can manipulate Order of Fate through fatehax). It doesn't really imply plothax.

I think Magi gods have plothax because "protagonist of a story" and "author" are directly used as a comparison between gods and humans, which implies some degree of metafiction.
Click to expand...
As @Fixxed pointed out order encompasses all phenomenon also when Misha recreates the world she completely changed the set of order. Well it kinda seems plot manipulation (low end)
 
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