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Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
You know I always wondered something. Creative God borns in White void. Then she creates the world 4 gods of juri are born then they create other orders. It's like each reality in the bubble world is born from order of orders. A god giving rise to other gods.
Click to expand...
Every order (except order of destruction) is came first from the order of creation, 4 gods of juri just control order for all thing to "life", not create the other order
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
  • Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality.
  • Type 3 (True General Transduality): A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of binary logic or duality at any level, including the conceptual, standing beyond the scope of all dual systems and concepts regardless of how complex they are. Such characters typically exist as contradictions within the context of their setting, and abide to dialetheic systems of logic, or are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation. As space and time themselves can be considered a duality, as well as the distinction between being within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality’s limitations, this type is reserved for 1-A characters and up.

I think it can be considered as type 2 probably
Click to expand...
Yes, i think so
 
Being unbound by orders should be transdual type 2 tho, but our wiki wanks this ability to hell, like you can't even interact with this kind of character so idk if he can get it or not, since anyone can touch him
 
What we know about Silver Sea until now.

  1. Deeper Layers are inaccessible to shallow layers
  2. Worlds exist in hierarchy of order(reality)
  3. Zero layer is shallowest layer and bubbles are born there. Each Bubble are 4D.
  4. Bubble world can't perceive the outside world even though it's 4D. And Conformist should in born in bubble world to evolve further. Conformist is end of life in bubble world. Bubble world needs to surpass that and able to Perceive outside world to enter layer 1. We know Transcendency is going beyond set limits.
  5. Zero layer worlds are called just called bubble and layer 1 and above are called Silver bubbles.
  6. Each shallow layers bubbles share there laws and concepts of their world to one deeper layers bubbles and you can't concepts of shallow layers in deeper layers. Which indicates Conceptual Transcendency.
  7. Zero layer has endlessly supply of bubbles. As if a bubble gets destroyed another one will replace it eventually. So deeper layers has no problem for getting fire dew.
  8. Belzebeeb compared reality of bubbles in another dimension as in higher dimensional.
  9. You can't even destroy a small 3D objects of deeper layers even if you can destroy a shallow world. You can't even hurt deeper layers skin even if you used haxes like besbed which directly interact with roots. Also even Eges spear which Transcends space time can't keep up with deeper layers
  10. Technically Layers are Hierarchy of realities in the form of difference between dimensions.
 
Delta333 said:
Being unbound by orders should be transdual type 2 tho, but our wiki wanks this ability to hell, like you can't even interact with this kind of character so idk if he can get it or not, since anyone can touch him
Click to expand...
Is there any character in MG that is currently unbound by order?
 
I don't know, maybe you could also argue that Anos being unaffected by every order he has faced because he's a misfit and that order and reason/logic/law can't affect him so technically he could get it.
 
Dereck03 said:
I don't know, maybe you could also argue that Anos being unaffected by every order he has faced because he's a misfit and that order and reason/logic/law can't affect him so technically he could get it.
Click to expand...
Well yeah because Source is main existence in MG so Possibly can be argued
 
I don't know, that's why I said this with doubt.
Dereck03 said:
I don't know, maybe you could also argue that Anos being unaffected by every order he has faced because he's a misfit and that order and reason/logic/law can't affect him so technically he could get it.
Click to expand...
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
problem with this is that order for each layer is different. Transdual type 2 really strictly requires you to be unbound by everything in your verse

so things affecting him should also be transdual type 2 else it is a contradiction
Click to expand...
I mean if we consider Creations and destruction as transcenduality then Anos is unaffected by both.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
problem with this is that order for each layer is different. Transdual type 2 really strictly requires you to be unbound by everything in your verse

so things affecting him should also be transdual type 2 else it is a contradiction
Click to expand...
Well, i get what you say but order is practically what makes everything in the verse, i.e. it is above the verse itself, but apparently there are some anti feats or similar things.
 
Fixxed said:
Yea is just some little explanation about order (but i think it is very important)

秩序と秩序は互いに密接に絡み合っている。
創造がなければ破壊がないように、生誕がなければ堕胎もない。
すべての秩序は言わば、世界を循環させるためのものだ。
Order and order are inextricably intertwined with each other.
　Just as there is no destruction without creation, there is no abortion without birth.
　All order, so to speak, is meant to keep the world in circulation.

「生誕神ウェンゼルが顕現しているとき、堕胎神アンデルクは存在することができない。同様に堕胎神アンデルクが顕現していれば、生誕神ウェンゼルは存在できぬといったところか？」
肯定するように、ウェンゼルはうなずいた。
「わたくしたちは、神々の蒼穹においても、特別な理を持つ神。表裏一体の秩序、決して互いに向き合うことのない、背表背裏はいひょうはいりの姉妹神です」
コインの表と裏のようなものか。
両方が同時に出ることは決してありえぬ。
"When Wenzel, the god of birth, is manifest, Andelk, the god of abortion, cannot exist. Likewise, when Andelk, the God of Abortion, is manifested, Wenzel, the God of Birth, cannot exist?"
　As if in affirmation, Wenzel nodded.
"We are gods with a special reason even in the azure skies of the gods. We are sister deities of two sides of the same order, never facing each other."
　Are they like the two sides of a coin?
　You can never be both at the same time.
.
.
.
「なぜ話さなかった、と訊くのは愚問か。表裏一体の秩序ならば、アンデルクが滅びれば、お前もまた滅びるのだろう。その猶予が一日というわけだ」
"Is it foolish to ask why I did not tell you? If the two orders are inextricably linked, if the Andelk fall, you will fall too. And you have only one day to do so."

So order and order is inextricably interwined and linked, it is for the circulation of the world. It is two side of the same coin, like order of creation-destruction and order of birth-abortion

So order and order is make the duality system, not just duality but conceptual duality because order is concept

I think is character is stated to be unbound by order it also means unbound by duality system (transduality 👀)
Click to expand...
Here it states both creations and destruction also intervened. I am not sure. Anyway Graham true nothingness should get it.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Here it states both creations and destruction also intervened. I am not sure. Anyway Graham true nothingness should get it.
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure you need to be beyond all level of duality not just one kind of dual system to qualify for Transduality. Regarding Graham, he technically already have low level Transduality (transdual nonexistent) and there not enough proof to show he really transdual in all level duality.
 
NIK_FARIS said:
I am pretty sure you need to be beyond all level of duality not just one kind of dual system to qualify for Transduality. Regarding Graham, he technically already have low level Transduality (transdual nonexistent) and there not enough proof to show he really transdual in all level duality.
Click to expand...
  • Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality.

I would say he has probably type 2 Transcenduality.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
problem with this is that order for each layer is different. Transdual type 2 really strictly requires you to be unbound by everything in your verse

so things affecting him should also be transdual type 2 else it is a contradiction
Click to expand...
"Different" means is not totally different. Is just mean order in world 1 is just separate with order in world 2. But the esense/the initial nature of the order is same

Yea i don't think the author explained about order, and then wasted the explanation.
I mean, the author doesn't need to explain it many times. When anos entered silver sea alone there is no longer any explanation about how the order works, because the explanation has already run out and doesn't need to be explained again and again
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
What we know about Silver Sea until now.

  1. Deeper Layers are inaccessible to shallow layers
  2. Worlds exist in hierarchy of order(reality)
  3. Zero layer is shallowest layer and bubbles are born there. Each Bubble are 4D.
  4. Bubble world can't perceive the outside world even though it's 4D. And Conformist should in born in bubble world to evolve further. Conformist is end of life in bubble world. Bubble world needs to surpass that and able to Perceive outside world to enter layer 1. We know Transcendency is going beyond set limits.
  5. Zero layer worlds are called just called bubble and layer 1 and above are called Silver bubbles.
  6. Each shallow layers bubbles share there laws and concepts of their world to one deeper layers bubbles and you can't concepts of shallow layers in deeper layers. Which indicates Conceptual Transcendency.
  7. Zero layer has endlessly supply of bubbles. As if a bubble gets destroyed another one will replace it eventually. So deeper layers has no problem for getting fire dew.
  8. Belzebeeb compared reality of bubbles in another dimension as in higher dimensional.
  9. You can't even destroy a small 3D objects of deeper layers even if you can destroy a shallow world. You can't even hurt deeper layers skin even if you used haxes like besbed which directly interact with roots. Also even Eges spear which Transcends space time can't keep up with deeper layers
  10. Technically Layers are Hierarchy of realities in the form of difference between dimensions.
Click to expand...
Just added one more. I think the evolve of the world is make the world is infinitely superior than before. Like elenesia world evolve to militia world

In another perspective, it also chould mean world in shallow layer is infinitely weaker than depper layer (depper layer infinitely superior)

「銀水聖海にいた前世の俺が、いつ死んだかにもよるだろうがな。エレネシア世界が、ミリティア世界に生まれ変わる前ならば、転生の秩序は限りなく弱い」
'It would depend on when I died, in my previous life in the Silver Water Sacred Sea. If it was before the world of Elenesia was reborn into the world of Militia, then the order of reincarnation is infinitely weaker."
 
Fixxed said:
Just added one more. I think the evolve of the world is make the world is infinitely superior than before. Like elenesia world evolve to militia world

In another perspective, it also chould mean world in shallow layer is infinitely weaker than depper layer (depper layer infinitely superior)

「銀水聖海にいた前世の俺が、いつ死んだかにもよるだろうがな。エレネシア世界が、ミリティア世界に生まれ変わる前ならば、転生の秩序は限りなく弱い」
'It would depend on when I died, in my previous life in the Silver Water Sacred Sea. If it was before the world of Elenesia was reborn into the world of Militia, then the order of reincarnation is infinitely weaker."
Click to expand...
This was brought before, but iirc it was only said that it was the order of reincarnation and would not affect the other orders.
 
Fixxed said:
Just added one more. I think the evolve of the world is make the world is infinitely superior than before. Like elenesia world evolve to militia world

In another perspective, it also chould mean world in shallow layer is infinitely weaker than depper layer (depper layer infinitely superior)

「銀水聖海にいた前世の俺が、いつ死んだかにもよるだろうがな。エレネシア世界が、ミリティア世界に生まれ変わる前ならば、転生の秩序は限りなく弱い」
'It would depend on when I died, in my previous life in the Silver Water Sacred Sea. If it was before the world of Elenesia was reborn into the world of Militia, then the order of reincarnation is infinitely weaker."
Click to expand...
Oh great 👌.
 
After i read again about TD 2, i think "entire level of reality" mean is not entire verse

It is like CM 1, "all of reality" it doesn't mean entire verse, if its mean entire verse anos whould't get above bassline concept

I think "level of reality" mean is inferior and superior nature from thing. Like NEP 2, isn't superior nonexistance, if it just superior nonexist then yogiri whould get it, but it is transdual nonexistance because lack of nonexistance in all level, or lack of concept of nonexistance. So whetever nothingness that is more nothing than nothing, is just participating in concept of nonexistance that shape all form of nothingness in all level of it
  • Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality.
Click to expand...
1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
Click to expand...
 
Fixxed said:
After i read again about TD 2, i think "entire level of reality" mean is not entire verse

It is like CM 1, "all of reality" it doesn't mean entire verse, if its mean entire verse anos whould't get above bassline concept

I think "level of reality" mean is inferior and superior nature from thing. Like NEP 2, isn't superior nonexistance, if it just superior nonexist then yogiri whould get it, but it is transdual nonexistance because lack of nonexistance in all level, or lack of concept of nonexistance. So whetever nothingness that is more nothing than nothing, is just participating in concept of nonexistance that shape all form of nothingness in all level of it
Click to expand...
Knowing Venozdonua can erase Everything in reality and Graham true nothingness didnt affected by it can be used as an argument
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Knowing Venozdonua can erase Everything in reality and Graham true nothingness didnt affected by it can be used as an argument
Click to expand...
Iirc Venuz could erase his nothingness and his true nothingness but not permanently.
We could argue that Anos source can erase his nothingness and his true nothingness as well
We could also argue that MEoCD can erase nothingness too cuz of being basically the same as Venuz reason destruction
 
Dereck03 said:
Iirc Venuz could erase his nothingness and his true nothingness but not permanently.
We could argue that Anos source can erase his nothingness and his true nothingness as well
We could also argue that MEoCD can erase nothingness too cuz of being basically the same as Venuz reason destruction
Click to expand...
Wait isn't Graham true nothingness didnt affected by Venozdonua right? Anos only erased the Nothingness in Graham roots?
 
Dereck03 said:
I don't remember the chapter very well, but I recall that venuzdonoa couldn't destroy it continuously cuz of a time limit or something like that
Click to expand...
I checked the chapter multiple times but couldn't understand it properly. I think i will check it out after offical translation drops
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
I mean it's not mentioned in his profile.
Click to expand...

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Types 2, 3 & Aspect Types 1, 2, 3; Graham remains as nothingness with a nonexistent "source" after his "normal source" (concept) is destroyed, and his true nature is that of a pure nothingness without reason that takes place after his nothingness (and nonexistent "source") has been destroyed, with him being able to reform his existence even from the pure nothingness that remains whenever he wants to. Additionally, not even Venuzdonoa is capable of erasing his nothingness permanently)
Click to expand...

2. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
Click to expand...
 
Dereck03 said:
You can say that his true nothingness as well is being destroyed 24/7 not only his source of nothingness
Click to expand...
Anos said something about Graham nothingness completely destroyed and then only possibility of Graham exist. But even that got destroyed later on.
 
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