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Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

Btw gods should be considered higher dimensional existence right?

They are the one who forms the reality of the mortal world. Doesn't that make sense.
 
Dereck03 said:
It seems that they are not physically HDE.
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They are actually. They are forming the reality of the world. Even heavenly Father explained gods are higher existence and they maintain the reality what it is. Also they literally maintanence the fate and other things in the world.
 
It may be, but so far I have not seen anything to imply that gods cannot be affected normally by other people because they are a higher existence.
 
Dereck03 said:
It may be, but so far I have not seen anything to imply that gods cannot be affected normally by other people because they are a higher existence.
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Only people affected them were MC gang. I mean even Sasha couldn't do anything to God of time Eugola Raviaz.
 
Dereck03 said:
Couldn't do anything =/= Can't affect him. Eugo was superior to Sasha

That doesn't mean that they are Higher Existences (4-D)
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They control the fate of the world. Even Eugola literally states that. They are superior because of their existence. Azure sky of gods is inaccessible to Mortals
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
They control the fate of the world. Even Eugola literally states that. They are superior because of their existence. Azure sky of gods is inaccessible to Mortals
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Anos a simply mortal (demon) is FAR superior to ALL his verse and he's not a higher existence nor superior existence.
 
Dereck03 said:
Yeah we know, but gods haven't proof to be Higher Dimensionals existences... That's all.
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Mortals are the reality that gods made. And they controls the fate of everyone standing outside of Mortal Realm. We know Azure sky of gods is inaccessible to mortals.
 
Sorry this is just a normal draft no scans. I was really busy IRL so took some free time to make it. So if any grammatical mistakes in there just ignore i am not fluent in English. Also if there is any mistakes in my explanations please do state it.

Bubble world:

Order and Gods:
  1. Order refers to laws and concepts which makes up the reality of the world as per both keywords and Novels.
  2. Bubble world is already stated to be infinite in size.
  3. Gods make up the reality of the bubble world and they are stated to be higher beings. Even heavenly Father God explains clearly that everything in the world depends on order and those are embodied in different Gods. I would say Gods are a 4D existence because they control the laws and concepts of the whole universe and they are the one who controls the fate of mortals. They already showed enough superiority over mortals to consider them as higher dimensional existence. Also Gods exist in a separate dimension which is inaccessible by Mortals and that's called Azure sky of gods.
  4. Also I know some people would bring up an almost infinite sky thing. But Gods exist in a different realm in the Azure sky of gods and that almost infinite sky from the mortal world connects to black sky and it stretches onto infinity.
Azure sky of gods:
  1. We know the Future world and the Past world both had different space time and timeline from the Militia world. Also time God realm also stated to be isolated from mortal world but we even saw time god using time manipulation in his realm. It's safe to assume all Gods has different space time in their realms. NAFTA is called the future world as it's another world in the form of the real world. Also the realms are stated to be infinite in size. Hence we should consider those realms are universal in size.
  2. Azure sky has countless realms. Also the azure sky is stated to be stretching to infinity. Hence we can safely assume there are infinite realms or you can say the azure sky can contain infinite realms.
Silver Sea:
  1. Silver Sea is inaccessible to Bubble world
  2. Silver Sea has two different bubbles. Normal bubbles and Silver bubbles.
  3. Silver bubbles are evolved Bubbles and able to perceive the silver sea where Normal bubbles aren't evolved enough to perceive the existence of the outside world.
  4. I will call the existence of the outside world as Transcendency.
Why perceiving the outside world/silver sea is Transcendency.
  1. To perceive the outside world, the bubble world needs to give birth to Conformists. He is called as the pure consciousness of the world and he is also stated to be the end of life. I know I don't have to explain what Transcendency means and still I am gonna explain here that Transcend means breaking through limits. So technically Conformist reaches the end and transcends it in the form of the Evolution process.
  2. Also in the LN volume 11 keywords it's stated to be in Silver Sea worlds exist in an Hierarchy. From WN we know they exist in layered Hierarchy. Also LN keywords states the deeper the world the stronger the order.
  3. So how much is stronger? Let's see what we got in WN. We can clearly say the difference between layers realities are dimensional differences. As even breathing air would be problematic for shallow layer inhabitants. Also 3D objects can't be destroyed by 4D structure destroying power.
  4. Also as i already explained we should consider evolution as Transcendency. Bubble worlds exist in zero layer and when they evolve(Transcends) they would enter layer 1 and be able to Perceive outside world.
  5. So technically layer zero and layer 1 should have dimensional differences by the evolutionary process and for LN statements for worlds existing in Hierarchy can be considered as each layer difference is the same.
Power difference ( i am kinda tired i will try to look for scans later)

Anos and others from the militia world needed to adjust to deeper layers to harm deeper layers inhabitants on every occasion.
  1. Balszbed statement and feats for dimensions difference
  2. Anos vs Roncruz
  3. Shin couldn't harm balandis world people ( I mean in the beginning before adjusting)
  4. Anos couldn't damage Yzark root before adjusting
  5. Anos couldn't harm Gege before adjusting
  6. Many more for now i am stopping here.
Laws and Concepts of deeper layers can't be used by shallow layers unless they use reverse formulas but shallow layer laws and Concepts can't be affected in deeper layers.

Each world is inaccessible and anyone who wants to get out of the world needs Ship made by Cheap God.

Reality fiction difference:
  1. Head states can use universes as shogi pieces ( it's clearly mentioned anos existence itself can destroy the bubble world)
  2. Magic bullet world uses worlds as magic bullets and it even collected many worlds and did experiments on it.
Some other stuff;
  1. Unlike other worlds, the militia world evolved in a different manner and its order is too different from others.
  2. Also Militia world characters are able to use their powers in deeper layers because they can adapt to deeper layers.
  3. There is similarities in birth of cheap god and evolution of bubbles
Conformist is created by All gods of the world and he surpasses the power of all Gods. Likewise Deeper layers bubbles has higher realities than shallow layers and Shallow layer all bubbles influence the every deeper layers bubbles. It can be argued that the deeper layers world is infinitely above shallow layer bubbles.

Per wiki explanation page. Being infinitely stronger than others also can be scaled to higher dimensions. Unless bs arguments pops up
 
Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Explaination is from wiki page only so we can argue for layers being infinitely stronger than one another to prove dimensionality
 
Allow me to correct... We "can assume" that MEoCD can destroy Graham's nothingness based on Venuzonoa's feat, which destroyed the reason that nothingness could not be destroyed, since Venuz is practically the same in feats and abilities as MEoCD, even more when both can destroy the reason. But it is not accepted that MEoCD can destroy nothigness, although it should based on the fact that it is practically Venuz, Anos' source in theory is capable of destroying Graham's nothingness as much as his true nature since it is being destroyed 24/7 and we can say that both nothingnesses are being destroyed., we know that Anos' source of perdition/destruction is something that makes no sense and could be even more devastating and dangerous than Venuz and MEoCD.
 
Dereck03 said:
Allow me to correct... We can assume that MEoCD can destroy Graham's nothingness based on Venuzonoa's feat, which destroyed the reason that nothingness could not be destroyed, since Venuz is practically the same in feats and abilities as MEoCD, even more when both can destroy the reason. But it is not accepted that MEoCD can destroy nothigness, although it should based on the fact that it is practically Venuz, Anos' source in theory is capable of destroying Graham's nothingness as much as his true nature since it is being destroyed 24/7 and we can say that both nothingnesses are being destroyed., we know that Anos' source of perdition/destruction is something that makes no sense and could be even more devastating and dangerous than Venuz and MEoCD.
Click to expand...
You can make an argument that Sasha had anos eye in previous life before transforming into venozdonua so that gave the sword the current Reason destruction ability. Also Anos destroyed votex which has similar properties like Nothingness. Besbed didn't worked to catch the vertex of Elmid but MEOCD destroyed that Reason.
 
Dereck03 said:
Feel free to post it here so we could evaluate it
Click to expand...
Actually its just simple topic.

Normal being who are mortals has body, soul and memories (mind).

But spirits are born from rumours and traditions. Spirits also has same kinda of things. But they has Rumours or transitions for their mid godly regeneration.

Source explanation states. Source exist even deeper than soul and spirits.

Spirits already has mid godly regeneration because of traditional thing but source existing in deeper Abyss should point out it's even deeper than mid godly regeneration.

Actually this is what I think.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Actually its just simple topic.

Normal being who are mortals has body, soul and memories (mind).

But spirits are born from rumours and traditions. Spirits also has same kinda of things. But they has Rumours or transitions for their mid godly regeneration.

Source explanation states. Source exist even deeper than soul and spirits.

Spirits already has mid godly regeneration because of traditional thing but source existing in deeper Abyss should point out it's even deeper than mid godly regeneration.

Actually this is what I think.
Click to expand...
Nah sorry, that doesn't count or prove anything for high-godly, moreover if there are no feats or clear statment that a person can regenerate from source destruction then no. Like the statment we have in Anos profile Anos can regenerate after his source (concept) is destroyed by overcoming his own destruction,[9] having a similar nature to Graham, who can regenerate from nonexistence after his source (concept) is destroyed and feats with Agronemut Can regenerate his source (concept) via <Agronemut>. Additionally, Anos can activate <Agronemut> in the moment his source (concept) is destroyed
 
Also i was re watching the anime. I found something interesting. Eugola Raviaz time stop was on conceptual level. So normal magic eyes also should get CM type 1 destruction. Because anos only used his eyes in Eugola Raviaz timestop. But he didn't used his eyes in melihem timestop.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Also i was re watching the anime. I found something interesting. Eugola Raviaz time stop was on conceptual level. So normal magic eyes also should get CM type 1 destruction. Because anos only used his eyes in Eugola Raviaz timestop. But he didn't used his eyes in melihem timestop.
Click to expand...
Why did you say that Eugo's time stop was at conceptual level? Where is the proof of that? Furthermore, what is a conceptual level time stop? Anos was destroying the ability (time stop).
 
Dereck03 said:
Nah sorry, that doesn't count or prove anything for high-godly, moreover if there are no feats or clear statment that a person can regenerate from source destruction then no.
Click to expand...
Spirits are the living embodiments of traditions, legends, rumors, desires, fears, and hopes.
When these beliefs become more widespread, a spirit based on them is born. Sometimes people's fear of fire leads to the creation of a fire spirit, and other times their faith in water leads to the creation of a water spirit. People's beliefs is what forms the source of a spirit; and as a result, spirits will cease to exist when their birthing stories are forgotten. Neither resurrection or time magic will be able to bring them back. They can also die when contradictions in their legends and rumors arise. Unlike demons and humans, spirits have no concept of reincarnation,

  1. Spirits are living embodiment of traditions.( AE type 2)
  2. People belief makes up the concept for spirits.
  3. But spirits don't have roots like mortals atleast like anos and others who can Resurrect and reincarnate.
  4. Source exist in deeper than spirits.
Well i am not planning on any CRT for now i will get some more information from everyone regarding this.

The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

Atleast one fundamental aspects getting destroyed is enough to get high godly regeneration btw
 
Dereck03 said:
Why did you say that Eugo's time stop was at conceptual level? Where is the proof of that? Furthermore, what is a conceptual level time stop? Anos was destroying the ability (time stop).
Click to expand...
Because anos don't have any reason to destroy normal timestop. As he is immune to timestop. He literally has Immeasurable speed why would he need to destroy timestop that doesn't make sense.

Each gods are considered as CM type 1 in wiki if i am correct Eugola Raviaz is also a god who controls order. In this case it's order of time just like creations and destruction.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Because anos don't have any reason to destroy normal timestop. As he is immune to timestop. He literally has Immeasurable speed why would he need to destroy timestop that doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
He isn't inmune to time stop, yeah he is immeasurable but he didn't need to use it againt's eugo as his Eyes of destruction where destroying the time stop and what you are saying would go against the novel and the feat in question. Destroyed Eugo La Raviaz's time stop when it attempted to affect Anos
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Each gods are considered as CM type 1 in wiki if i am correct Eugola Raviaz is also a god who controls order. In this case it's order of time just like creations and destruction.
Click to expand...
No. Only HFG order and Creation & Destruction are considered Type 1, rest seems to be only type 2... The Chief God's order may be considered type 1 as well, but we don't have enough proof for that.
 
Dereck03 said:
He isn't inmune to time stop, yeah he is immeasurable but he didn't need to use it againt's eugo as his Eyes of destruction where destroying the time stop and what you are saying would go against the novel and the feat in question. Destroyed Eugo La Raviaz's time stop when it attempted to affect Anos

No. Only HFG order and Creation & Destruction are considered Type 1, rest seems to be only type 2... The Chief God's order may be considered type 1 as well, but we don't have enough proof for that.
Click to expand...
Keywords literally states there are different order like time, creation and Destruction. Let me the check the fight in WN.
 
Dereck03 said:
Yeah, but the orders accepted as type 1 are only HFG, Creation & Destruction. Check here.
Click to expand...
Btw do you have any idea why time is not considered as CM type 1. That thread is 5 page long. I am not even sure if they argued for time. Anyway i will try to gather scans first. Pretty sure WN Rimuru got Conceptual manipulation for time. I don't see why they wouldn't give Conceptual manipulation of time for Eugola if there is literally statement and feats.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
Btw do you have any idea why time is not considered as CM type 1. That thread is 5 page long. I am not even sure if they argued for time. Anyway i will try to gather scans first. Pretty sure WN Rimuru got Conceptual manipulation for time. I don't see why they wouldn't give Conceptual manipulation of time for Eugola if there is literally statement and feats.
Click to expand...
For that thread and the requirements for Cm Type 1 was that the order should be unbound from the reality it governs, the only ones that met those requirements were the 3 I mentioned above. Never argue about time.
 
Dereck03 said:
For that thread and the requirements for Cm Type 1 was that the order should be unbound from the reality it governs, the only ones that met those requirements were the 3 I mentioned above. Never argue about time.
Click to expand...
A magic circle forms at his feet and a world of silver white spreads out from there.
It’s a grand magic that stops the time of all things.
A silvery-white barrier extends spherically. If you step foot inside it everything stops, not temporarily but forever.
“Fumu. As expected, this is mythical magic.”
Into the world of stopped time I step forward slowly.
“Your body which houses the power of Eugo Ra Raviaz is timeless, permanent, immutable and immortal.”
Aivis pours all of his power into the silvery white world.
In the space where everything is stopped I step forward.
Sasha’s mouth moved slightly in this world where time had stopped.
These are some scans from the chapter.

Btw does universal timestop scales anywhere?
 
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