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I feel like it's due time for some Godzillas to be upgraded.

1). Attack potency and durability upgrade for Heisei Godzilla, SpaceGodzilla, MOGUERA and Destroyah (as well as probably other Heisei Kaiju) to solar system level.

In Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla it was stated that Godzilla's cells get trapped in a black hole, emerged from a white hole and were bombarded with supernova energies. It was stated as a theory in a movie and is largely unquantifieble, but in in the official kaiju guide to the PS3 Godzilla video game we are given the bio of SpaceGodzilla. And it says following: "A mutated organism created from Godzilla's DNA that had been scattered in outer space during a fight with a rival, which subsequently crystallized and synthesized inside a black hole before absorbing the energy of a fixed star".

It means that the genetic material of Godzilla escaped the black hole somehow. Since this was implied to be a natural stellar black hole, there could be only two ways to escape it for Godzilla's cells: either getting converted into a Hawking Radiation (which would imply that Godzilla can regenerate from being transformed into pure energy, which is highly unlikely) or via the collapse of said black hole. We can't measure the energy needed to survive being inside the black hole, so screw that. However, we can calculate the energy needed to survive a black hole collapse. To quote this very wiki: "
Black holes do decay over time due to Hawking Radiation, so if you leave a black hole alone and don't feed it anything, it will eventually grow smaller and explode (this type of detonation is a 100% efficient mass-to-energy conversion, with more potential power than a nuke or antimatter explosive). Tiny black holes with masses less than a few trillion tons would evaporate nearly instantly." The smallest stellar black hole discovered has a mass of 3.8 suns. The detonation of such a black hole would give us 6.7933e+47 joules. And the cells would have to survive this energies to later absorb the star energy and to form SpaceGodzilla.

And yes, it should mean that MOGUERA, Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla have similar attack potency (applies to all three of them, because Godzilla and MOGUERA managed to hurt SG and vice a verca) and durability (may or may not apply to MOGUERA). It makes sense because:

a) Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla are made from basically the same genetic material (though SpaceGodzilla's cells were amped by the energy of a star after the blck hole diving).

b). MOGUERA was specifically build to be an anti-Godzilla weapon, and was build on a base of two previous anti-Godzilla mechs with the help of future technologies.

And no, such an attack doesn't have to be capable of destroying the Earth. Quote from this very wiki: "A character with a certain degree of attack potency can not necessarily cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

This also should definitely scale to Destroyah (who tanked the more powerful Soiral Beam than the one that killed SpaceGodzilla) and probably the rest of the Heisei cast.

2). Reaction/combat speed upgrade for Heisei monsters to MFTL-MFTL+.

In Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla Godzilla was able too shoot down SpaceGodzilla's crystals. Why is this important? Because these crystals were moving much faster than SpaceGodzilla in space. And SpaceGodzilla travelled from the closest black hole to Earth in several years. Now for some logic. The closest black hole to us is V4641 Sagittarii. 1600 light years from Earth. Now, Godzilla cells were brought into space by either Biollante or Mothra. Godzilla vs Biollante events happened in 1989, events of Godzilla vs Mothra - in 1992, events of Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla - in 1994. If it was Biollante that brought the cells to Space and we assume that she travelled to the black hole iin half the time gap between the movies, it would have taken 2.5 years for SpaceGodzilla to reach the Earth. Simple math gives us the speed for such a feat as 640 times the light speed. That's the absolute lowest end of it btw, because IIRC SpaceGodzilla was born during the events of the movie, and I disregarded the fact that it should have taken time for Godzilla's cells to mutate and that SpaceGodzilla's body couldn't have formed instantly. And if it was Mothra who brought the cells... Well, the speed would increase to 1200 times the light speed. And that's only SG's speed. His crystals moved so fast the left him in dust. And Godzilla was able to shoot them down.

If that still seems iffy, I should say that SpaceGodzilla launched the crystals telekinetically. Meaning their speed should be comparable to his reaction/combat speed. And from SG it scales to Godzilla and others.


3). Godzilla vs Megaguirus Goji atack potency and durability upgrade to large planet+ level/solar system level.

This calc basically. It's explained there why it's a legit black hole, not a wormhole or a portal device. And it doesn't contradict the "black holes in fiction" article since the calcer used the kinetic energy based on it's mass, not the fact that Godzilla survived inside of it. Godzilla was able to slow down it's fall with his Atomic Breath, survive the collision and it's evaporation. The kinetic energy puts Godzilla's durability to large planet+ level. The evaporation of the black hole (calced by me outside of this calc) gives us 6.0782e+43 joules, or solar system level.

May or may not scale to Megaguirus.

4). HCW Godzilla durability and ap - solar system level.

Second calc from here. Basically the same thing as the later one. Since the HCW Godzilla profile does not exist (yet), I want to make one. Ap on the same level cause he was able to hurt guys strong enough to hurt him.

5). RoE Godzilla reaction/combat speed upgrade to MFTL+.

Context:

P12 7 copy

P12 6 copy


P12 8 copy
The thing is, during the 30 seconds of dialogue or so SpaceGodzilla travels from the boundaries of the Solar System to Moon (near which the Cryog ship is sitiuated). The solar system's radius is aproximately 2 light years. The sistance from Sun to Moon is 149597870700+384400000=149982270700 metres or 1,5853138521881e-5 light years. The distance from the edge of the solar system to the Moon is 1,99998415 light years. Using this speed calculator, I get 630721348729698.1 m/s or 2103859.96 times the light speed. Why the travel speed should also count as a reaction speed? Because, as seen in the last scan, SpaceGodzilla was able to transform and blitz Mechagodzilla on that speed. He then fights Gigan, during the fight with whom routinely dodges and deflects lasers. This should scale to RoE SpaceGodzilla, Gigan (managed to keep up with SpaceGodzilla), Jet Jaguar (owned Gigan), Godzilla (fought both SG and Gigan on different ocasions), SpaceGodzillaPod (fought Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla at the same time) MegaguirusPod (blitzed SpaceGodzilla, should also scale to Megaguirus 'cause it's genetic material was used to create MegaguirusPod). But since there is only RoE Godzilla's profile on the wiki, I only suggest updating his speed. For now, until other profiles are created.
Also, potentially the kinetic energy of SpaceGodzilla ramming into Cryog Ship can be calculated and scaled to anyone who was able to damage that ship, but I am too lazy for that right now.
 
Number 1: No evidence black hole acted like a black hole, quite the opposite in fact, hence unquantifiable due to "black hole in fiction".

Number 5: Travel Speed (Space Godzilla blitzing ABC doesn't change this), no evidence lasers are real lasers.

Others seem fine.
 
"Black holes is fiction" article doesn't mention the black hole's collapse as the banned thing here. On contrary, the page about black holes states that the bh collapse can be calculated as mass-energy conversion. As for it's not being legit black hole - on contrary, there is no implication it acted unnaturaly for the black hole. And it wasn't an artifical black hole so people can claim that it's not real bh, it was said to be a natural stellar black hole.

Why is that? SpaceGodzilla managed to transform, telekinetically launch his crystals, fire the beams from the shoulder crystals and hit Mechagodzilla while still in the process of flying at MFTL speeds. This just screams combat speed.
 
I'm not referring exclusively to the article, but in general. Black holes in fiction, whether artificial or not, do not act like black holes in real life and just for any feat you have to prove it's an actual black hole, something that hasn't been done unlike in the others you posted.


I'm unsure. What evidence was there that he was moving at that speed? I'll probably just wait for more feedback.
 
Does the whole "black hole being legit or not" stuff really matter here? The article does not list a black hole collapse as something that needs a proof of the bh being legit. It's not like I am trying to state that his cells have infinite durability due to surviving the black hole or that they were able to escape it.

The dialogue of Cryog is the evidence of his speed. When first mentioned, SG was said to be near the border of our solar system, but after two lines it's said that the distance is closing fast. Some seconds after that it's said that SG shoot projectiles (crystals) even before he got close to the ship and transformed.
 
If it's not a legit black hole then it's not a legit black hole collapse so I would think it's very important. Considering the fact that the black hole collapsing at all is an assumption, I would think I'm not being unreasonable to ask for some sort of proof.

If he shot the lasers before he even got close to the ship, then it can't be combat speed which involves the speed a character can fight at, as in close combat but I'm not sure about this point so again, I'll wait to see what everyone else has to say.
 
It was implied to be a stellar black hole and Godzillaverse astronomy is similar to the real world's one. And yeah, there was no indication that the black hole behaved unnaturally. Everything that was discussed in the movie or in game manual works perfectly with the black hole being legit.

He didn't shoot lasers, he telekinetically threw his crystals before he got to the ship. So yeah, combat speed.

Also, I ****** up a little with the second point. In fact, the closest black hole to Earth is situated 15 times further according to the recent research. That makes SpaceGodzilla's speed 12000 and 24000 times the speed of light depending on whether it was Biollante or Mothra who brought the DNA to space. And that speed was inferior to the crystal's speed. Nice.
 
It being implied is not evidence, and the fact that a mere DNA material managed to escape a black hole sounds like it's behaving quite unnaturally, wouldn't you say?

I'll hold my peace on your second point as I'm not entirely certain about it.
 
The fact that DNA managed to escape is explained by my theory (which is kinda logical, you know). In movie itself the escape part in the in-universe theory is attributed to the white hole. So yeah, there are plenty of ways for the DNA to escape from a black hole without violating any physical and logical laws.
 
Ok. But doesn't your theory contradict the movie's actual happenings? If we know the DNA escaped via a white hole, then why are we assuming it collapsed?
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
Ok. But doesn't your theory contradict the movie's actual happenings? If we know the DNA escaped via a white hole, then why are we assuming it collapsed?
Because what was said in the movie was explicutly said to be a theort. In-universe theory that wasn't confirmed by the authors anywhere. The info from game manual however was approved by Toho (because if it wasn't, it wouldn't be in the game) and does not mention white holes at all. That's where my theory about collapse comes into play.
 
Okay, so you tried some of this stuff a week or so ago and Antvasima closed the thread you participated in, stating that "I would appreciate if you would immediately permanently drop this matter" https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/217538

Have you talked to Ant about that? If so, this thread is fine, but if not, you are being really rude.

To paraphase what I said last time about claims 3) and 4),

3) You cannot treat a black hole collapsing as a planet or star collapsing. 3-dimensional beings cannot survive in black holes and if they do it is considered a form of hax at best not AP or durability. Yes, this extends to "tanking" the energy and mass of a black hole.

4) Never stated that hell is 60x hotter per level within the confines of the story. That's a biblical reference and thus is not canon to what you are describing. It has to be explictly said.

Onto the new stuff:

1) Same thing as above, black holes can't be treated that way, especially not on this site.

2) Looks fine, I'd imagine even a travel speed=combat speed thing is fine if you actually show a picture of Godzilla shooting those crystals down. Also, if you need to do calculations, it's better to make them in independent blog posts. It makes referencing those calcs in the future a lot easier.

5) Looks fine, but from the scans I see, it states that they tracked it past the solar system. What's to say that in the two weeks time skip that had been specified on the top of the scan, that it hadn't been hiding nearby? You also seem to have two of the same scans.
 
I actually dropped trying to upgrade Godzilla in Hell Goji. I didn't mention it here. The thread was closed because of the Hell feat being regarded as questionable, not because of the black hole one.

Why can't I treat the black hole collapse like how I did? The wikia specifically lists that on Black Hole page.

1). It's not what was said in "bh in fiction" article. The bh collapsing is not mentioned in there but is mentioned on page about black hole as being a legit thing.

2). Working on it

5). The "tracking past solar system" part was not about SpaceGodzilla but about Mecha-King Ghidorah, who broke from the Cryog control in past issues. SG however is first mentioned here and appears shortly after that.

Wait, what scans are the same? They are all different.
 
I assumed Ant meant both things, both the hell temperature and black hole stuff.

A black hole can collapse like that and have mass as large as a black hole normally does, but in the end it has to be an actual black hole to have those properties. You can't just ignore the very clear part that there's no way to survive in a black hole w/o hax, collapse or not.

5) Two of the scans looked very similar to me, sorry. But where is it mentioned that Ghidorah was at the edge of the solar system? I thought that those scans were supposed to be shown there.
 
The "surviving the black by itself" stuff, meaning surviving the singularity, is always gonna count as an outlier due to all the infinite density/gravity thing. The black hole collapse though is totally quantifiable and totally survivable. And all the black holes shown in there have the properties of a real ones (the first one being a natural stellar black hole, and since the astronomy of Godzillaverse is similar to our world, if has to be a legit BH, and HCW and GvM black holes are explained to be the real BHs in the blogs I linked).

5). First scan. They talk about Ghidorah escaping and say that they tracked it past the solar system, where it vanished in the gateway of some sorts. Then they mention that they just got another sighting in the same area. Because I don't know how far past the solar system Ghidorah travelled, I took the lowest possible option and assumed it happened on the edge of our solar system.
 
The black hole collapse implies it was a black hole. If it was a black hole, the feat is hax. You can't seperate it out. If it wasn't a black hole, you can't even really calculate it.

So again, collapse energy or not, it is hax or it isn't. If it isn't hax, it isn't a black hole.

5) It appears that I was right in my first post. If it says "tracking," this implies they lost it's signal and are looking for it. It could have been right on the other side of the moon. If your only evidence that it was beyond the solar system in that panel was that it was tracked there an indeterminate time ago, that's not evidence at all.
 
Ugh, why do people on this site have hate boners against black holes? It was a real black hole. The collapse is totally quantifiable, which is supported by the Wiki article. It doesn't matter if he survived the singularity or something, hell, in one of these feats he survived the collapse while not being inside of the black hole. Why are you trying to link the collapse with one of those things that are not allowed according to the "bh in fiction articles"? Regardless, there are profiles that utilize the black holes for physical stats anyway.

5). Did you read the scans or what I said? The tracking bit is about King Ghidorah. Everything else is about SpaceGodzilla. Also, if they lost the signal past the solar system, its logical that it won't be on the other side of the Moon.
 
Link me a profile which uses a black hole for physical stats AND is a 3-dimensional being. I will start a thread in the content revision section about it. You cannot quantify it. Please stop trying to. Quantifiying only parts of a black hole is inconsistent.

5) The scans say that it was "in the area." The tracking bit is from an unquantifiable timespan away. What's to say they didn't pick up the signals from a day ago? A week ago? It doesn't matter about which creature it is nor did I ever mention which one I was referring to in my post.

In fact, it almost seems to imply that the timespan was two weeks based on the top of the first scan. What exactly was occuring before that scan?
 
Just a quick question but... why include the feats from the comic books? It clearly takes place in an alternate timeline/universe to the Heisei films and so they shouldn't be used to reinforce the movie feats.

EDIT: nvm. ^Ignore that.

I'm still on the fence about the Heisei feats though, unless we're applying DBZ logic to explain away why certain feats appear inconsistent.
 
Regarding MOGUERA's drill piercing SpaceGodzilla's hide, wouldn't that imply that MOGUERA's drill has to be denser than a black hole? That would require the drill to itself be a black hole, right? Wouldn't that mean the black hole feat is inconsistent?

Also, is there any evidence that SpaceGodzilla's crystals really traveled at faster than light speed during the fight against Godzilla? IIRC, King Ghidorah is faster than light during space travel but flies at only Mach 3 in Earth's atmosphere.
 
I explicitly told you not to bring up the within the story context completely unfounded speculation Hell feat again. Doing so anyway is technically a block-worthy offense.

As for the black hole feat, I largely agree with Alakabamm that quantifying only part of a black hole seems inconsistent. However, I will ask DontTalk to weigh in to be on the safe side.
 
Well, the link to that calculation was there, but I may have misunderstood. Sorry. Anyway, let's wait for DontTalk.
 
ZillaJrKaijuKing said:
Regarding MOGUERA's drill piercing SpaceGodzilla's hide, wouldn't that imply that MOGUERA's drill has to be denser than a black hole? That would require the drill to itself be a black hole, right? Wouldn't that mean the black hole feat is inconsistent?

Also, is there any evidence that SpaceGodzilla's crystals really traveled at faster than light speed during the fight against Godzilla? IIRC, King Ghidorah is faster than light during space travel but flies at only Mach 3 in Earth's atmosphere.
Ugh. It doesn't have to be as dense as black hole to damage smth that can take a silar system level energies. So no. Also, once again, I am not using the fact that cells survived a singularity, but the fact they survived the collapse. Big difference. And yeah, I specifically mentioned that MOGUERA should be upgraded as well and whu it makes sense.

Showa Ghidorah example doesn't really work here though. The crystals don't have official stats, and the friction of the atmosphere can't massively reduce their speeds for them to not be in MFTL range. Also, SpaceGodzilla was able to launch them at these speeds in space, so he should logically be able to do so on Earth. Also, KG has FTL reqction speed based on his FTL dogfight with Zone Fighter, which should also scale to everyone in Heisei.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the link to that calculation was there, but I may have misunderstood. Sorry. Anyway, let's wait for DontTalk.
The link featured two calc related to Godzilla, the black hole one and the Hell one. In OP I specifically mentioned the black hole one.

Alright it then. Let us wait.
 
OK, so black hole collapse?

I know the OBD likes to arbitarily assume those for black hole destruction at times, but for us that doesn't fly.

A black hole collapse of a black hole of 3.5 solar masses like you mentioned would take a Duovigintillion years (yes thats a number and the specific time it would take).

So without a really good reason that the hawking radiation should be sped up by a lot this doesn't go anywhere.

BTW. even if it was that would be no durability feat. A being inside the black hole would tank non of the energy. Hawking radiation creates the energy on the border of the black hole and sends it outwards. inside the black hole the energy doesn't effect you.
 
Okay. Thank you very much to DontTalk for the explanation.

So, I would appreciate if that part of the discussion about proposed changes is immediately dropped.
 
Okay. Thanks again. I am very glad that we have you around.
 
You can summarise anything not related to any black hole feats within your next post if you wish.
 
2). Reaction/combat speed upgrade for Heisei monsters to MFTL-MFTL+.

In Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla Godzilla was able too shoot down SpaceGodzilla's crystals. Why is this important? Because these crystals were moving much faster than SpaceGodzilla in space. And SpaceGodzilla travelled from the closest black hole to Earth in several years. Now for some logic. The closest black hole to us is V4641 Sagittarii. 1600 light years from Earth. Now, Godzilla cells were brought into space by either Biollante or Mothra. Godzilla vs Biollante events happened in 1989, events of Godzilla vs Mothra - in 1992, events of Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla - in 1994. If it was Biollante that brought the cells to Space and we assume that she travelled to the black hole iin half the time gap between the movies, it would have taken 2.5 years for SpaceGodzilla to reach the Earth. Simple math gives us the speed for such a feat as 640 times the light speed. That's the absolute lowest end of it btw, because IIRC SpaceGodzilla was born during the events of the movie, and I disregarded the fact that it should have taken time for Godzilla's cells to mutate and that SpaceGodzilla's body couldn't have formed instantly. And if it was Mothra who brought the cells... Well, the speed would increase to 1200 times the light speed. And that's only SG's speed. His crystals moved so fast the left him in dust. And Godzilla was able to shoot them down.

If that still seems iffy, I should say that SpaceGodzilla launched the crystals telekinetically. Meaning their speed should be comparable to his reaction/combat speed. And from SG it scales to Godzilla and others.

5). RoE Godzilla reaction/combat speed upgrade to MFTL+.

Context:


[1][
P12_7_copy.jpg
] [2][
P12_6_copy.jpg
] [3]The thing is, during the 30 seconds of dialogue or so SpaceGodzilla travels from the boundaries of the Solar System to Moon (near which the Cryog ship is sitiuated). The solar system's radius is aproximately 2 light years. The sistance from Sun to Moon is 149597870700+384400000=149982270700 metres or 1,5853138521881e-5 light years. The distance from the edge of the solar system to the Moon is 1,99998415 light years. Using this speed calculator, I get 630721348729698.1 m/s or 2103859.96 times the light speed. Why the travel speed should also count as a reaction speed? Because, as seen in the last scan, SpaceGodzilla was able to transform and blitz Mechagodzilla on that speed. He then fights Gigan, during the fight with whom routinely dodges and deflects lasers. This should scale to RoE SpaceGodzilla, Gigan (managed to keep up with SpaceGodzilla), Jet Jaguar (owned Gigan), Godzilla (fought both SG and Gigan on different ocasions), SpaceGodzillaPod (fought Godzilla and SpaceGodzilla at the same time) MegaguirusPod (blitzed SpaceGodzilla, should also scale to Megaguirus 'cause it's genetic material was used to create MegaguirusPod). But since there is only RoE Godzilla's profile on the wiki, I only suggest updating his speed. For now, until other profiles are created.

Also, potentially the kinetic energy of SpaceGodzilla ramming into Cryog Ship can be calculated and scaled to anyone who was able to damage that ship, but I am too lazy for that right now.
 
Personally, I'm actually in favor of a downgrade for the Heisei kaiju, with my reasons being those provided in the linked thread. The kaiju from the other film timelines should be fine where they are at. The comic ones I can't really say, having never read any of IDW's published works.
 
Skeleturtle said:
Prrtty sure the downgrade stuff was already adressed in that topic.
It was to a degree, however I feel that both options should receive equal consideration, and up to this point it has just been me defending my position against four other people, which is why I conceded defeat as I could tell that it was getting nowhere fast. What I'm looking for is an unbiased opinion, one that isn't in favor of either option, and to see what that prospective person might have to say on the matter.
 
All of this seems too sketchy, speculative, and disorganised for my tastes. Maybe you can get Gallavant to create more coherent calculation blogs that we can use as references instead.
 
About 2) Can you actually show the feats?

About 5) Why do you conclude that it came from outside the solar system all the way to the point in the time they talked? (For talking I would btw. use a longer timeframe if we have no proper time given, safe low guess like always)

"Also, potentially the kinetic energy of SpaceGodzilla ramming into Cryog Ship can be calculated and scaled to anyone who was able to damage that ship, but I am too lazy for that right now."

No KE for FTL stuff
 
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