OMORI if it was good and didn't suck (OMORI Revisions)

[azontr]

My point is just the fact that she causes some injuries with the nails isn't evidence that she's swinging with such strength that you'd need superhuman durability to withstand them without breaking bones.

"Your point" is based on literally nothing but "She doesn't want to hurt her friends" when I've proven that narratively she couldn't have been holding back and that physically she wouldn't have been holding back in the church where she's in a violent fit of rage. We don't even know the extent of the damage they've taken from her hits, just that they need medical supplies to mend them.

"The point" doesn't work at all because the reason he freaks out at the knife is that Sunny just pulled out a real ass weapon and wielded it with intention to injure, a half kg rubber ball isn't the same thing, given that it is 1) something he was just happened to be carrying and used for self-defense 2) not something you can realistically kill people with.

This is just downright confusing. Insinuating that Aubrey would stop a fight over getting kinda nicked by a knife but not if Kel literally broke her nose is not only asinine it's genuinely idiotic. You can't just wave off any other injuries because you don't want them to exist.

What is there to scale to? There's no evidence the bat is being swung hard enough to break bones to begin with, all context points to her not wishing to cause such extensive damage so why are we saying she's attacking that hard anyways?

Dude, I've posted entire paragraphs of debunking these "context points" that you literally just haven't responded to so I assumed you just conceded on them. If you want to talk about context points, why haven't you addressed this

If Aubrey was holding back to the point Kel and Sunny could seem perfectly okay, then Kel would've noted this— but he doesn't, because for most of the future events he maintains the stance that shes just being a b*tch and a bully, and never once does he say "oh shes clearly holding back she must still care about us!" He only makes up with her when Hero steps in, and she explains her abandonment issues. Aubrey holding back would be a major plot point but it's never made a point.

They aren't friends anymore until the end of the game— she literally goes on a tangent about how she feels they abandoned her. This is literally the most major context point possible that is integral to understanding Aubrey's character beyond "a little baby who wants to seem threatening".

 

[azontr]

To avoid going in circles I will begin calling staff members (instead of just waiting for them to come to me), but I'll still respond to any arguments made.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I know that everyone on the site hates whatabout-ism, but

Nope sorry delete before anyone else sees this. Now!!!!!1!1!1!!1

 

[Dragonite007]

I haven't watched Ben 10, so I can't compare it with Omori. However, I know that not every fiction handles "normal teenagers" the same way. If Ben always gets into fights with super powerful entities, then he probably defied his origins as a mundane human, or maybe mundane humans in Ben 10 are stronger than in real life. Maybe "normal teenager" is just a name we can use for in-setting tiering relative to in-setting scaling, which doesn't necessarily have to mean characters within it are Human level, since different fictions have different evidence for different Tiering System tiers.

It's less they being treated as stronger than real life, and more Ben 10 scale chain being fuck3d up

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the OP

 

[IDK3465]

From what I know, the main counter to real world OMORI being 9-C is that it doesn’t match with the context of the setting and characters, with all of them being treated as regular teens.
But as James mentioned earlier:

Maybe "normal teenager" is just a name we can use for in-setting tiering relative to in-setting scaling, which doesn't necessarily have to mean characters within it are Human level, since different fictions have different evidence for different Tiering System tiers.

Clearly, just because a character in-setting is treated as a normal person doesn’t necessarily discredit any feats they have that would put them above true normal people. Being superhuman can easily be explained as just how everyone is in their verse.

Yes, this case specifically is meant to be more realistic than most within the context of the game, but that doesn’t mean that everything in OMORI’s real world has to perfectly match reality. It’s all still fiction at the end of the day, and if it’s depicted as 9-C, it’s 9-C.

Imo, azontr’s argument has pretty reasonable evidence of nearly everyone being capable of surviving and performing 9-C levels of strength. But there’s also sound evidence of them being 10-B.

The problem is that you can’t exactly disprove anything either side says because so much of how the fight goes is up to interpretation. It’s very hard to prove or disprove that Aubrey was holding back, or how injured Sunny and Kel got, it’s all a matter of perspective.

As such, I have no problem with everyone being given a “10-B, possibly 9-C” rating (OP can list me for voting if you want.)

 

[azontr]

I'd list votes but I forgot to include a vote section in my OP when I posted it and don't feel like adding one, so I'm kinda just mentally tallying votes.

 

[azontr]

Me praying that the manga becomes the primary canon so that it's canon that Aubrey was trying to violently bludgeon Sunny and Kel to death (Manga Aubrey was NOT playing games)

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Yes, this case specifically is meant to be more realistic than most within the context of the game, but that doesn’t mean that everything in OMORI’s real world has to perfectly match reality. It’s all still fiction at the end of the day, and if it’s depicted as 9-C, it’s 9-C.

It seems to me that the discussion is more about whether or not the event was actually depicted as tier 9-C despite the weapon involved that is so strong.

The problem is that you can’t exactly disprove anything either side says because so much of how the fight goes is up to interpretation. It’s very hard to prove or disprove that Aubrey was holding back, or how injured Sunny and Kel got, it’s all a matter of perspective.

As such, I have no problem with everyone being given a “10-B, possibly 9-C” rating (OP can list me for voting if you want.)

Indeed, and this is why I wrote that I'm fine with bringing back the "possibly 9-C" once I remembered the tier was listed like that. Both perspectives are well-thought-out yet merely describe likelihoods rather than confirmations, so it's fair to acknowledge the ambiguity by implementing the word "possibly."

Me praying that the manga becomes the primary canon so that it's canon that Aubrey was trying to violently bludgeon Sunny and Kel to death (Manga Aubrey was NOT playing games)

Maybe you can use it as supporting evidence for Aubrey's intention in the video game. I haven't looked at the manga yet, so I don't know how different it is from the video game.

 

[Axorandom0]

I agree with the CRT other than the 9-C stuff. Idk, it’s just that the 9-C stuff doesn’t feel right.

 

[azontr]

"It doesn't feel right" is not a valid reason to disagree with a statistic

 

[Armorchompy]

It absolutely is when it's a realistic verse with characters that are clearly supposed to be normal people, and the claim is that they have superhuman statistics. Like you don't need hard anti-feats, shit just breaks the setting and is clearly unintended.

 

[azontr]

Saying the same thing 50 times doesn't suddenly make you not incorrect.

 

[Armorchompy]

Stating that I'm wrong 50 times doesn't make it true either, if we're being childish like that

 

[azontr]

I literally have no other response to you because you don't have an argument other than "the verse is realistic". I can't drop a paragraph of debunking to something that lacks the substance necessary for me to form an argument against it, because then I'd just be yapping about the same points over and over. The only thing I can say while being as concise as possible while avoiding writing a useless 20,000,000 word post is that your argument is ass.

If you want to return to the debate, then feel free to scroll back up to the first post of this page and respond to me; you don't have to do this of course, but otherwise you can't expect anything other than what you'd consider "childish" responses, because that's all a post of that kind of quality will receive. Either way, "this doesn't feel right" will never in a million years be a valid argument against anything ever.

 

[Armorchompy]

I have made my argument: These characters which are clearly normal human teenagers should not be scaled to superhuman levels of durability when the primary avenue is as iffy as it is, given that it is scaling to attacks that are not necessarily meant to deal lethal/crippling damage to them in the first place. Your unwillingness to recognize it as legitimate doesn't suddenly render it objectively invalid. Similarly I am under no obligation to respond to every nitpick you make and my not doing so doesn't equal a concession. You have made your point, I have made mine, we'll see who gets more votes.

 

[azontr]

I never once said that your "argument" was incorrect with any level of objectivity, and I'm aware of what your "argument" entails, so there's no need to repeat it as if I suddenly became unaware of your premise. Everyone knows what we both think.

I would just, personally, not liken my "argument" down to scaling on vibes and feelings, the most subjective thing in the world. But that's just me, personally.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, fine, I was trying to just see what conclusion the consensus came to but if you're going to keep acting like my argument is just based on "vibes" when it is simply disagreeing with your assumptions, I am going to respond after all.

"Your point" is based on literally nothing but "She doesn't want to hurt her friends" when I've proven that narratively she couldn't have been holding back and that physically she wouldn't have been holding back in the church where she's in a violent fit of rage. We don't even know the extent of the damage they've taken from her hits, just that they need medical supplies to mend them.

You haven't proved jack shit. You have proved that she is legitimately upset at them, which nobody put into question. That however is not at all evidence of her wanting to kill/maim them.

This is just downright confusing. Insinuating that Aubrey would stop a fight over getting kinda nicked by a knife but not if Kel literally broke her nose is not only asinine it's genuinely idiotic. You can't just wave off any other injuries because you don't want them to exist.

Good thing we don't KNOW she broke her nose, I said that is the absolute most that the ball can do, not that it actually happened.

They aren't friends anymore until the end of the game— she literally goes on a tangent about how she feels they abandoned her. This is literally the most major context point possible that is integral to understanding Aubrey's character beyond "a little baby who wants to seem threatening".

I never claimed they're currently friends but believe it or not, most people aren't going to try to kill or maim their former friends (or just complete strangers really) just because they've had a serious falling out.

 

[azontr]

Alright, fine, I was trying to be the bigger man but if you're going to keep acting like that, sure, let's waste more of our time.

That's crazy.

Is your intention to continue the debate, or...? I can respond to the above or not, I just don't know if you want that to be a closer or if you've got the intention to stick around.

 

[Propellus]

I'm inclined to agree with the OP as they have a more reasonable assessment on the other side of the story.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm going to respond if you respond. I would rather just have more staff members weigh in because clearly we're not going to be going anywhere.

 

[azontr]

That's fine with me. I just don't wish to waste time, or take time out of any other activities you may have to attend to as staff.

I'll leave it up to the others.

 

[Armorchompy]

That's crazy.

For the record I edited the beginning of the post right before Azontr quoted it, not after. I wish it hadn't been seen because while it does express my feeling it comes off as more rude than I had intended it to, but c'est la vie.

 

[azontr]

It's cool. We both said some sh*t that maybe should've been kept to ourselves, but what happened happened, and nobody's harmed.

While the use of my name suggests it wasn't actually directed at me, I just wanted to clarify that things were cool anyways.

 

[azontr]

BUMP

 

[azontr]

BUMP

 

[InfiniteDay]

Not sure why 9-C is so controversial. Powerful kicks/tackles generate enough work to be 9-C. The kids don't really have anti-feats other than "portrayal", but 9-C isn't something that's unachievable by your average joe.

 

[Armorchompy]

Not sure why 9-C is so controversial. Powerful kicks/tackles generate enough work to be 9-C. The kids don't really have anti-feats other than "portrayal", but 9-C isn't something that's unachievable by your average joe.

You can do 9-C with tackles but that doesn't "scale" back to your durability, energy output IRL is way more complex than our durability system so that's not really relevant to one's rating. The claim that someone is 9-C implies that they have the strength of a very elite athlete, not that they're capable of outputting that energy at all. I mean I can't walk rn and I could still do that just by falling over.

Here characters are being stated to be capable of tanking baseball bat strikes so like, that is very much unachievable by your average joe

 

[azontr]

Bump.

I'm going to see if I can get more staff members here, since I don't want to move forward with just a 2 to 1 vote count.

 

[Dereck03]

I'm fine with OP's conclusions.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

DarkDragonMedeus, Propellus and Dereck03 are staff members who have evaluation power, and they voted in favor of the entirety of the original post's proposal, which includes the return of the "possibly Street level" ranking. Does this mean Armorchompy is outvoted, and the return of the "possibly Street level" ranking is accepted?

 

[azontr]

I suppose so.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I suppose so.

In that case, you can probably apply all the revisions now.

 

[azontr]

I'll get to that later tonight. Or tomorrow. Or never. Or now. Who knows.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Wouldn't the things he's done for his weapon mastery give him at least a gifted combatant intelligence rating? The game insinuates that OMORI trained for decades to master the technique.

 

[azontr]

Wouldn't the things he's done for his weapon mastery give him at least a gifted combatant intelligence rating? The game insinuates that OMORI trained for decades to master the technique.

Timeline wise it would make zero sense for them to have spent actual decades practicing.

 

[azontr]

Instead of sleeping, I applied the revisions. Thread can be closed and hopefully my spirit will be released.