MAJOR Kirby revisions

[The_real_cal_howard]

Other than the rescue (which means it survived not only yet another encounter with Landia, but with Kirby), the Warpstar takes you everywhere else in Halcandra. Besides. The point is that it survived encounters with beings empowered by the Master Crown and Kirby (who'd be universal).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That is using one outlier to support another. It doesn't work like that.

Lor Starcutter is an object that is important to the plot. Its the focus of most of the game, its used to travel to the final destination, and it's eventually used to save Kirby.

Using the fact that it wasn't completely annihilated during the course of the game is not nearly enough to justify it having tier 3 durability. Maybe if it took full power attacks from Magolor in a non-plot essential moment, but nothing of the sort happens.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm using that feat to support NOVAs (and by extension, Marx and Star Dream) being that level, as canonically NOVA=Lor in power, and just because it's important to the plot doesn't make it unquantifiable. I could just as easily say that Frisk resisted Asriel and refused to die because "plot." It took full power attacks from Landia, who should logically have the same, if not greater power than Magolor.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

On a side note, I'm aware that debating against a bureau is futile lol.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, NOVA equals Lor in power. You would have a case if Lor was the one with the tier 3 feats, but it isn't. That's Master Crown Magolor, who was consumed with the Crown's power after putting it on. If Lor had similar power to NOVA, Magolor would not have wanted the Crown so badly. Every single piece of evidence points to the Crown being significantly above everything else, and Magolor was the only one who demonstrated full use of its power, being fully consumed by it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You said it yourself. The Lor isn't designated for power. Doesn't stop it from being an incredibly durable ship with cross dimensional abilities and a handful of offensive abilities. Magolor stole it for a reason. He was confident enough in its abilities to challenge Landia the first time. It just doesn't have the raw power and reality warping that the Master Crown had, coupled with Landia's experience advantage. And remember how I said that Magolor knew Marx? Why would he go after NOVA if he already knew Kirby defeated it before. He tried something else, and got beaten with the same power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, it's not designed for power, which is why NOVA being = Lor isn't impressive compared to the Master Crown.

Yeah, he was confident in it, and was completelly wasted. Stark contrast to the Master Crown, which made him absurdly powerful.

This completely ignores that Marx very explicitly stated himself that he wanted to rule over and control Popstar. Magolor wanted to do the same to the whole universe. Again, there is literally zero proof NOVA is comparable to the Master Crown; only speculation. For such a massive outlier, there is no way that is enough to upgrade the majority of an entire franchise.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, Galacta Knight was referred to as the most powerful even after possessed Magolor was in the picture. Only EX and Soul trump him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, Galacta Knight was referred to as the most powerful even after possessed Magolor was in the picture. Only EX and Soul trump him.

Again, Magolor himself isn't that powerful.

Magolor Soul, his most powerful form, isn't even really Magolor. It's the Crown.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Which is why I specified that even crowned Magolor and the semi Soul form of Magolor (who are both still 3-B) are considered under Galacta Knight. And the only being stronger than him in that game is Magolor Soul (and debatably EX)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No, they are not. Crowned Magolor's power came from the Master Crown, and he only existed for a very limited period of time. He is not a permanent character who exists that Galacta Knight can be measured against, especially when Meta Knight on his own beat down Galacta Knight, and Magolor required Kirby with Super Abilities, Meta Knight, Dedede, Bandana Dee, and Landia to take down, and then barely escape after his defeat caused the realm they were fighting in to collapse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Remember that I'm trying to get most of those characters you mentioned as Universal. Besides, it's not like it was stated by an in game character. It was a WoG statement, which would include everyone they created.

Also, Galacta did take out Star Dream in one attack. Who's also get upgraded due to NOVA.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, based on a single instance drastically above everything else in the series. It also wouldn't make sense, as I said before, for Magolor to be able to take on powered up Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, Bandana Dee, and Landia while still being a legitimate threat, while Meta Knight mopped the floor with Galacta Knight.

I cannot allow an upgrade based on the logic of Meta Knight < Magolor < Galacta Knight < Meta Knight.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Here's another example. If Toby said that Gaster was stronger than everyone else in Undertale, would that not put him above Asriel, who existed for an incredibly short time, or even God Flowey, who's the same case?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes.

But if Gaster was then curbstomped by Frisk, Toby would be full of crap.

It's the same, here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm just gonna drop that one. It's going nowhere. Like I said, futile. Sorry for wasting your time...

Besides, still didn't get a chance to rebut the Lor thing.

Magolor was wasted because the crown is stronger. Never claimed it wasn't. The fact of the matter is that 1, it survived the attack, 2, probably lost due to more reasons than brute strength, like overconfidence for Magolor, and experience on Landia's part, 3, Landia was protecting it, and it got stolen for a reason, and 4 that would scale to NOVA. I couldn't care less what AP the ship got. The durability is what matters, which would be comparable to Master Crown Landia.

Follow up, do we even have a tiering for Landia w/ crown?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, the Crown is stronger, and Magolor did not inflict any damage to Landia whatsoever when using Lor Starcutter. Instead, he escaped, but the ship was still wrecked.

I don't know what the proper tiering would be for Master Crown Landia, but it would be significantly less than Magolor. Landia clearly refused to draw on the Crown's full power (for good reason, Magolor doing so basically turned his body into a shell and warped him into a total monstrosity), and never demonstrated any of the most potent reality warping granted by the Crown, as well. That is why the team taking on Master Crown Landia was much less of a big deal than taking on Magolor.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree that it would be a whole lot less, but not billions upon billions. I'd be fine with 3-B due to the fact that it's the same artifact. However, we don't know how long the first battle lasted. All we know is that Magolor lost. I mean, we upgraded MONAKA for a long while despite not knowing how the battle went. And I don't see this being like Monaka and being hilariously weak. Finally, Magolor explicitly said that it was created with an incredible power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The problem is we have no way of knowing exactly how much of the Crown's power Landia drew upon. We can tell with Magolor because in his quest for power, he tried to draw on all of it and the power consumed him. Landia just seemed to gain a notable boost in raw power, but did not display many of the crazy powers Magolor did, and since its job was to make sure others couldn't use the Crown, it likely would have if it could.

The problem is scaling from Landia would not work, as it is essentially working off the same outlier, which comes from the Crown itself.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I feel like this is gonna finally come to a close soon. So regardless of how this turns out, nice debating with ya, bro.

I don't see how this would still be an outlier if it is canon that at least 3 other people possess the same power (as Lor) 4 if you would say that the star rods are approximately equal to NOVA due to forming the starship. I mean, it's not likely that Landia didn't even use 1/100th of his power. Let alone a number exponentially decayed from that. I understand that it's an unknown number, but any power driven would still be well into the 3-B range. And it's very unlikely he wouldn't have drawn any power at all. Same guy permanently split himself into four to attempt to beat Kirby. Besides, all those crazy powers Magolor had were due to him already being a dark wizard who could escape from being sealed beyond time and space in base (see his flavor text and his race in Dream Collection). The Master Crown amped that up to 100000000

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No other people possess the same power, though. Only the Master Crown has shown such power. That's the problem. If there were more feats on a similar level to that of the Master Crown, it would not be an outlier, but there aren't, which is why it is considered as such.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm aware that no one possesses the same amount of power. That ship has sailed. I'm arguing for comparable power now.

Alright. I just thought of a really good (yet fake) analogy. Let's say Seiya fought some guy with a crazy power source. He fights another guy with the same power source with even more powers and feats on display. The first guy fought a gold saint, and the gold Saint lost, but lived to tell the tale. And Seiya fought other gold saints along with that losing gold saint. So Seiya is scaled to that guy with the power source.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, another analogy. There's only one Universal feat (not statement. Feat) in dragon ball, but there's about 10+ tier 3 beings in that series.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Basically, here's how I see it...

Magolor w/crown = Landia w/crown X give or take 100

Landia w/crown > Lor Starcutter by a factor of give or take 2

Lor Starcutter = NOVA

NOVA = Star Dream

Marx and Marx Soul > NOVA

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

I have a better idea Cal, look at Magolor Soul's mouth. It looks like Zero. Now if one of us could prove a connection between the two, we may be on to something. Otherwise, i don't think this is gonna get very far...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I remember finding something, but I can't find it, and it would be even more speculation. We'd have the best chance to convince Azzy that the Lor can take hits from a 3-B entity without PIS

 

[Cropfist]

Also, another analogy. There's only one Universal feat (not statement. Feat) in dragon ball, but there's about 10+ tier 3 beings in that series.

That's because said feat isn't an outlier.

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah and the narrator confirmed as well as other people

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Never claimed it was an outlier. And several other people confirmed that there were comparable Ancient items.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

It kinda is.

 

[Cropfist]

I'm saying scaling to DBS's universal feat works because the feat isn't upsurged by figthing weaker characters, while Kirby's feat is.

 

[Huesito88]

Wait what Bruce

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm saying scaling to DBS's universal feat works because the feat isn't upsurged by figthing weaker characters, while Kirby's feat is.

Universe 6.

 

[Huesito88]

Goku and vegeta were holding back their God forms/God ki they have already talked about that topic

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If you're talking about us, I'm aware. I was in that conversation. And I'm not trying to change that. I'm just comparing that we could find logic in that, so why not this.

If you're talking about the show, then I don't recall that, but then again, I'm far behind.

Regardless, topic has dropped off...

 

[Huesito88]

So Kirby has been holding back by the sextillions what logic can we apply from that to this

 

[Cumberjung]

I completely agree with you cal and one thing that I think should be brought up is the text that states Kirby has infinite power most say that this is hyperbole but personally I don't think it is because if it was then it wouldn't be highlighted but also there was a similar text for Star dream it stated that he had near infinite power (so near the master crown's limitless power) and it said this while in a weakened state being held back by Haltman and also technically not being a perfect recreation in the first place then later when it is no longer restricted Kirby still defeats it not only that but he also defeats master crown Landia in this game as well as his DX form afterwards. Also the reason Kirby might get knocked around a lot by less powerful beings might be because he might have trouble using his full potential think of it sort of like man of steal superman which would make sense considering he is just barely at a mature age and is still learning things although that part is just speculation. One more thing if nightmare created Kirby wouldn't he also have to create his stomach dimension (once again speculation).

 

[Huesito88]

Trouble like why any evidence besides speculation to comfirm him having trouble using his full power second why would that hold him back by the sextillions

 

[Cumberjung]

Well that part of wat I said was more ment to be a add on anyways but like said up above in this forum you can compare this to the chaos emeralds infinite power but your controll over it comes from the ground up if that makes sense. Also if I were to say I would think that the tear should be at least changed to 4-A possibly 3-A. By the way what do you think of the other 3 things I said in that comment?