• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Major Dark Souls 3 Scaling Changes.

Status
Not open for further replies.
XSOULOFCINDERX

XSOULOFCINDERX

They/Them
21,313
8,986
Alright, I think it's about time we addressed the Elephant in the room. Dark Souls 3's Scaling is a complete and utter disaster in every conceivable way. First of all, the Ashen One's Scaling is terrible since they literally kill the Abyss Watchers, a Lord of Cinder, as the 5th Boss in the game, 6th if you also killed the Greatwood beforehand, 3rd or 4th if you didn't fight the Crystal Sage and Deacons before killing the Abyss Watchers and had to go back for them. The Mid-Game Key is literally impossible to Scale to the Nameless King because you have to have already killed 3 LoCs to even get there unless you killed Emma, the Dancer and Oceiros early but the Ashen One has literally no way to know that unless they're a murderous Psychopath who kills every NPC they meet, even their Allies, and considering the made an entire cutscene for Emma teleporting you to the Dancer I'm going to assume that's the Canon way of getting inside the Castle. That means the Nameless King is a Late-Game Boss, meaning the Ashen One would have to be in their End-Game Key to even get to him in the first place. So my suggestion is to do this.

Early-Game can stay as is it is, if you really can't find a better solution for that, but Mid-Game has to be Star Level since they fight 3 Lords of Cinder in incredibly short increments in-between each of them and the Nameless King Feat is impossible to Scale to Mid-Game Ashen One since they couldn't have been Mid-Game Ashen One who did it unless they killed Emma early which doesn't make any damn sense for them to do either.
 
Technically, killing Emma isn't too OOC since every player's Ashen One and their actions are equally valid, plus each Lord of Cinder in the game has their own Unkindled whose goal is to kill them (Siegward and Yhorm, Anri and Aldrich, etc.), meaning the Ashen One by process of elimination is meant to go straight for Lothric. But, the rest is correct, Nameless King is in no way a mid-game boss, not even lore-wise, and both in gameplay and lore mid-game Ashen One scales to Lords of Cinder.
 
Indeed, the only snag I can see this creating is that now the Nameless King probably scales to the Ashen One since they literally fight each other twice in a row with the Nameless King getting a huge amp in the second fight.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Indeed, the only snag I can see this creating is that now the Nameless King probably scales to the Ashen One since they literally fight each other twice in a row with the Nameless King getting a huge amp in the second fight.
Click to expand...
Well Nameless King is implied fairly significantly to be the disowned son of Gwyn, to the point that it's largely just accepted as canon by the wider community. Gwyn's children got significant portions of his soul, so they should scale in part.
 
So that's one Staff Member agreeing with this. Which of the other bosses are gonna be affected by this? Is it everyone Irithyll and beyond or what?
 
At the very least Pontiff should be star level for fighting with Aldritch. Also soul of Cinder should 100% be High 4-C because he is the amalgamation of at least 8 star level beings, everyone after should also scale as well.
 
yeah the scaling is ****** all over to be honest with you

like everlasting dragons should still be around low 6-B but gods such as the nameless king should be around star level due to inheriting a good bit of gwyn's power as his first born and fighting the ashen one near end game, its the whole 4 lords situation again where every lord other than gwyn where low 6-B for some reason even though their souls where of the same kind as gwyn
 
Sir_sun_man said:
yeah the scaling is ****** all over to be honest with you

like everlasting dragons should still be around low 6-B but gods such as the nameless king should be around star level due to inheriting a good bit of gwyn's power as his first born and fighting the ashen one near end game, its the whole 4 lords situation again where every lord other than gwyn where low 6-B for some reason even though their souls where of the same kind as gwyn
Click to expand...
Also Dark Eater is Low 6-B for god knows what reason. And I've never seen a verse with such extensive lightning spells be labeled as supersonic. The verse really needs an overhaul.
 
Speaking of Midir, there's literally no excuse at this point for him to remain Low 6-B and for that matter Kalameet as well. We literally have a statement for Kalameet being so powerful that Anor Londo didn't even wanna **** with him and Midir should be even stronger than him for feeding on the Abyss for Countless Millenia and then super charging himself with it in the second phase of his fight. (We all saw what just getting corrupted by it could do for Artorias considering he uses it like it's the Kaioken or some shit.) I say we straight up scale him to 4-C at a minimum since he's undeniably stronger than anyone else in the game barring the Soul of Cinder, the Ashen One and Dark Soul Amped Slave Knight Gael. He also still has that feat of surviving the first beat down the Ashen One gave him.
 
I dont know much

But something tells me something is wrong with the Bearer of the Curse as well

It just feels weird that he only has an early game key and end game key, yet no middle game / late game key?
 
Dark Souls 2 is beyond repair, we kinda just need to completely throw it out and restart since they have no feats or statements that suggest they scale to the previous game or DS3.
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Also Dark Eater is Low 6-B for god knows what reason. And I've never seen a verse with such extensive lightning spells be labeled as supersonic. The verse really needs an overhaul.
Click to expand...
well the lighting is seen as un-natural as such we can't scale it to regular lightning we did before hand and everyone and their grandmother was massively hypersonic+ for a good 4 or so years

and as for the low 6-B scaling for mid tiers is due to the storm drake being able to preform a low 6-B feat prior to the fight with the nameless king creating that huge storm which was calc'd at around low 6-B so it should still scale to regular everlasting dragons and the such its just gets slaped onto characters without much thought though
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Dark Souls 2 is beyond repair, we kinda just need to completely throw it out and restart since they have no feats or statements that suggest they scale to the previous game or DS3.
Click to expand...
well actually we know for a fact that the kings (aka vendrick, the iron king(yes even in his demon form) and ivory king) where considered monarchs that could sit upon the throne of want and link the flame so they should scale to around lord of cinder level if not a bit above. We also have the bearer of the curse being able to kill 2 separate everlasting dragons one being a recreation of the huge one in the brightstone cove and the other being a true everlasting dragon in the sunken city. Still though we have barely even touched DS2 as most of the profiles are empty and it'll require quite a bit of work to make'em all work proper in the scaling chain as most of them make no sense at all, like for example ivory king being low 6-B when we know that he was considered a monarch mighty enough to even scare vandrick who we know for a fact could link the flame as everyone and their grandma keeps telling us in DS2 and he was than even further boosted by chaos flame when we fight him so he should at least be 4-C by lore and statements honestly though I'm thinking about making a CRT for DS2 to get all that shit sorted as it is fresh in my mind as I just did beat DS2 again and all the lore is now refreshed for me (as nonsensical as it is(other than aldia he was pretty straight forward and interesting and also he is an easy 4-C and has the best outright immortality of the whole franchise due to being outside the cycle of light and dark))
 
I think you can argue that Pontiff is tier 6 via defeating Gwyndolin, who shouldn't be that far in comparison to the Nameless King (in fact that's how it's made rn). Nameless King is clearly not mid-game, but he isn´t late-game too, neither he is in within the general scaling chain of the characters. However, his feat could be extrapolated to the mid-game characters, like, again, Pontiff.

Abyss Watchers' fight could be likely an outlier considering the moment you met them (around early/late-game), and the fight with the other Lords could be mostly late-game, I think.

But yeah, the explanation for mid-game is really bad. I suggest for that to change it with something like this:
(Fought Pontiff Sulyvahn, who overpowered Gwyndolin and Yorshka after taking control of Anor Londo).

Dunno if that could be a solid solution, but I'll leave it anyway.
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
I think you can argue that Pontiff is tier 6 via defeating Gwyndolin, who shouldn't be that far in comparison to the Nameless King (in fact that's how it's made rn). Nameless King is clearly not mid-game, but he isn´t late-game too, neither he is in within the general scaling chain of the characters. However, his feat could be extrapolated to the mid-game characters, like, again, Pontiff.

Abyss Watchers' fight could be likely an outlier considering the moment you met them (around early/late-game), and the fight with the other Lords could be mostly late-game, I think.

But yeah, the explanation for mid-game is really bad. I suggest for that to change it with something like this:
(Fought Pontiff Sulyvahn, who overpowered Gwyndolin and Yorshka after taking control of Anor Londo).

Dunno if that could be a solid solution, but I'll leave it anyway.
Click to expand...
Dude, there's literally only two bosses inbetween the Abyss Watchers and the other two Lords of Cinder, they have to be Mid-Game as Late-Game Starts when you get to Lothric Castle.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
well the lighting is seen as un-natural as such we can't scale it to regular lightning we did before hand and everyone and their grandmother was massively hypersonic+ for a good 4 or so years

and as for the low 6-B scaling for mid tiers is due to the storm drake being able to preform a low 6-B feat prior to the fight with the nameless king creating that huge storm which was calc'd at around low 6-B so it should still scale to regular everlasting dragons and the such its just gets slaped onto characters without much thought though
Click to expand...
Tbh Everlasting Dragons should upscale from the feat cuz they're largely shown in-game and considered in-lore to be superior to their descendants such as drakes and wyverns
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
Yeah, they should have at least a key with the High 4-C rating, and clearly Midir needs to scale from this.
Click to expand...
I don't think the Everlasting Dragons as a whole would be 4-C, let alone High 4-C. I just think two specific individuals would be 4-C, specifically Kalameet and Midir.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I don't think the Everlasting Dragons as a whole would be 4-C, let alone High 4-C. I just think two specific individuals would be 4-C, specifically Kalameet and Midir.
Click to expand...
Gwyn needed to call upon all the Great Lords to face the Dragons at the beginning. Not everyone should be High 4C yes, but there are several who could be. Also Midir and Kalameet are just descendants, so there could be other ones with more power than them.




















And that's the moment I remember there's no profile for the Everlasting Dragons as a whole.

Soooo ehhhmmm... uuhhh... forget about what I've said 🗿.
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
Gwyn needed to call upon all the Great Lords to face the Dragons at the beginning. Not everyone should be High 4C yes, but there are several who could be. Also Midir and Kalameet are just descendants, so there could be other ones with more power than them.




















And that's the moment I remember there's no profile for the Everlasting Dragons as a whole.

Soooo ehhhmmm... uuhhh... forget about what I've said 🗿.
Click to expand...
Tbh Kalameet and Midir are something like second generation dragons, so they're barely a step down from true Everlasting Dragons, and Kalameet had Dark powers and the ability to cast curses which likely made him even more dangerous to Anor Londo specifically than any single Everlasting Dragon. And with Midir spending millennia consuming an Abyss even larger and more powerful than the one in Oolacile, he's most likely more powerful than any other dragon before.

I definitely think there should be some Tier 4 Everlasting Dragons tho, and there is precedent as afaik the Everlasting Dragons you fight in Dark Souls 2 are very late game, when the Bearer is on the level of a Lord of Cinder. And as I said earlier, Everlasting Dragons > (maybe >>>>>?) drakes, wyverns, etc. so at very least the whole species should upscale from Stormdrake.
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
Gwyn needed to call upon all the Great Lords to face the Dragons at the beginning. Not everyone should be High 4C yes, but there are several who could be. Also Midir and Kalameet are just descendants, so there could be other ones with more power than them.




















And that's the moment I remember there's no profile for the Everlasting Dragons as a whole.

Soooo ehhhmmm... uuhhh... forget about what I've said 🗿.
Click to expand...
kalameet is not a descendant its an actual everlasting dragon as gough refers to him as an "ancient dragon" which is another way to call everlasting dragons (as per DS2)
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
I think you can argue that Pontiff is tier 6 via defeating Gwyndolin, who shouldn't be that far in comparison to the Nameless King (in fact that's how it's made rn). Nameless King is clearly not mid-game, but he isn´t late-game too, neither he is in within the general scaling chain of the characters. However, his feat could be extrapolated to the mid-game characters, like, again, Pontiff.

Abyss Watchers' fight could be likely an outlier considering the moment you met them (around early/late-game), and the fight with the other Lords could be mostly late-game, I think.

But yeah, the explanation for mid-game is really bad. I suggest for that to change it with something like this:
(Fought Pontiff Sulyvahn, who overpowered Gwyndolin and Yorshka after taking control of Anor Londo).

Dunno if that could be a solid solution, but I'll leave it anyway.
Click to expand...
Pontiff should be star level as well considering he fought and held off Alderitch for a time. Also Midir should 100% be at least star level for being a post endgame boss. Also Souls of Cinder should definitely be High 4-C being the amalgamation of at least 8 star level beings, everyone who scales should also get this rating.
 
I just realized, this would effect Anri too because we currently scale Pontiff Sullyvan to Mid-Game Ashen One and Anri fought him too. Also, Anri's Page is missing the section that explains which Key is which.

Siegward would be effected by this too, albeit not very much since his Page is alright I guess. I find it annoying though that it says that he scales to Late-Game Ashen One because they Tag-Teamed Yhorm though when that was Mid-Game Ashen One.
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Pontiff should be star level as well considering he fought and held off Alderitch for a time. Also Midir should 100% be at least star level for being a post endgame boss. Also Souls of Cinder should definitely be High 4-C being the amalgamation of at least 8 star level beings, everyone who scales should also get this rating.
Click to expand...
I don't remember any statement about Pontiff facing Aldritch. Afaik, he only made an alliance with him and that's all.
 
Hecatia_Gaming said:
I don't remember any statement about Pontiff facing Aldritch. Afaik, he only made an alliance with him and that's all.
Click to expand...
darksouls.fandom.com

Pontiff Sulyvahn

Pontiff Sulyvahn is a character and a mandatory boss in Dark Souls III. Sulyvahn is a tall humanoid clothed in torn ceremonial robes but has nothing on his feet. He wears a crown and is adorned with a necklace of his eye rings. His skin is pale and seems to be decayed and covered in large...
darksouls.fandom.com darksouls.fandom.com
Aldrich fought Pontiffs army and killed all his servants, he then fought Pontiff for a time before Pontiff had to give up and allow him to pass. This is also the reason both his army looks hollow and Pontiffs clothes are tattered when you fight him, he resurected his army in an attempt to regain his dignity.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I just realized, this would effect Anri too because we currently scale Pontiff Sullyvan to Mid-Game Ashen One and Anri fought him too. Also, Anri's Page is missing the section that explains which Key is which.

Siegward would be effected by this too, albeit not very much since his Page is alright I guess. I find it annoying though that it says that he scales to Late-Game Ashen One because they Tag-Teamed Yhorm though when that was Mid-Game Ashen One.
Click to expand...
Tbh Mid game ashen one should probably be star level as well based on him fighting the abyss watchers. Late game should be upped to large star level definitively.
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
darksouls.fandom.com

Pontiff Sulyvahn

Pontiff Sulyvahn is a character and a mandatory boss in Dark Souls III. Sulyvahn is a tall humanoid clothed in torn ceremonial robes but has nothing on his feet. He wears a crown and is adorned with a necklace of his eye rings. His skin is pale and seems to be decayed and covered in large...
darksouls.fandom.com darksouls.fandom.com
Aldrich fought Pontiffs army and killed all his servants, he then fought Pontiff for a time before Pontiff had to give up and allow him to pass. This is also the reason both his army looks hollow and Pontiffs clothes are tattered when you fight him, he resurected his army in an attempt to regain his dignity.
Click to expand...
The wiki has no citation for that ever happening and i can’t think of anything ingame saying that happened
 
Sir_sun_man said:
well the lighting is seen as un-natural as such we can't scale it to regular lightning we did before hand and everyone and their grandmother was massively hypersonic+ for a good 4 or so years

and as for the low 6-B scaling for mid tiers is due to the storm drake being able to preform a low 6-B feat prior to the fight with the nameless king creating that huge storm which was calc'd at around low 6-B so it should still scale to regular everlasting dragons and the such its just gets slaped onto characters without much thought though
Click to expand...
Late game ashen one can dodge Gaels cloud to ground lightning by rolling, as well as also being able to dodge nameless kings cloud to ground lightning and lightning based attacks.
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Late game ashen one can dodge Gaels cloud to ground lightning by rolling, as well as also being able to dodge nameless kings cloud to ground lightning and lightning based attacks.
Click to expand...
yeah we already used that argument to try to keep MHS+ but due to the long wind up of the lighting hitting the ground its considered aim dodging and as such it can't be attributed to the speed of the character
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Shmeatywerbenmanjenson
A Massive Dark Souls CRT
2
Replies
64
Views
5K
Mr. Bambu
Mr. Bambu
noninho
  • Locked
[7-0-0] This Knight of Catarina faces a glitch! - Siegward of Catarina vs Abyss Watchers
Replies
28
Views
2K
Crobatman44
Crobatman44
BlackDarkness679
Tekken minor additions and few scaling changes
Replies
6
Views
815
BlackDarkness679
BlackDarkness679
First_Witch
Low 6-B Tournament "Carve your own Legend" Round 3 (Kirby vs The Nameless King)
Replies
21
Views
2K
ProbNotAFelon
ProbNotAFelon
noninho
  • Locked
[7-0-0] This Knight Of Catarina made a different Promise - Siegward vs Aldrich
Replies
27
Views
2K
noninho
noninho
Back
Top