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Majin Buu Saga Toei Scaling Revision

Stefano4444

Stefano4444

He/Him
6,084
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I'm not good at wording so i will try to go right to the point, i have some issues when it come with the current scaling of DBZ Anime.

1) Post-Vegito Division Key for Vegeta and Goku should not exist.

The only major power increase that Vegeta had during the Buu Saga was with the Majin Form via Babidi's magic after that he remained death for a while only to be brought to back to life later, and last time i check being resurrected in the DBverse doesn't make someone stronger.

While in the case of Goku he literally has no major gains of strength during the last saga of the Manga, and using the difference displays of power show between Innocent Buu and Kid Buu doesn't work since in both Anime and Manga he admit that he was holding back against Innocent Buu and that he could have defeat him but he wanted the younger generation to do it instead.

2) Having all version of Super Buu scale to Buuhan doesn't make sense.

Since we actually accept the anime statements of Kid Buu be the strongest incarnation of Majin Buu, meaning he surpassed his previous forms, having all versions of Super Buu (aside for Buuhan) and everyone who scale to him be 2-C its a major inconsistency that can't be ignored.

Buuhan, which i need to remind he supposedly got much stronger by absorbing people and Goku admit that fusion was necessary to win against him, to perform his 2-C feat he had to go trully berserk and Vegito SSj1 had to actually put effort into stopping him yet somehow Super Buu, Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are put in the same tier despire be potrayed as far weaker than Buuhan.

And we can't just downscale previous versions of Super Buu to 2-C without good reason or just because of the massive gap of the tier, by the same logic why don't have all versions Buu at that level too? Or why not have everyone in the Buu Saga be 2-C? You see what kind of slippery slope we end up making?

Conclusion:

Super Buu should be downgraded to whatever tier the rest of the Buu Saga cast scale and have only Buuhan and Kid Buu reaching 2-C for the reason mentioned above, meaning 2-C will be restricted to just Kid Buu, Vegito, Goku SSj3 Post-Vegito Goku, Post-Vegito Vegeta, Super Janemba and possibly Hirudegarn (even thought if you actually see their fight Goku was potrayed as much stronger than him, unlike Super Janemba who actually overpower Goku SSj3) for DBZ Anime.

Base Goku GT can remain the same since Uub its suppost to be as strong as Kid Buu.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
Only to be brought to back to life later, and last time i check being resurrected in the DBverse doesn't make someone stronger.
Click to expand...
It does actually, at least in the Toei continuity.
yWDPzqk.png

A guidebook also supports Vegeta getting a power-up due to his revival
NHsKIho.jpg
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
It does actually, at least in the Toei continuity.
yWDPzqk.png

A guidebook also supports Vegeta getting a power-up due to his revival
NHsKIho.jpg
Click to expand...
I admit that i didn't know about the guidebook or that quote, still i'm not sure if the power increase by itself its worthy enough that it need a key.
 
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The reason the Buu’s scale to the 2-C feat via downscaling is because they use to downscale from Kid Buu’s feat who’s stronger than Buuhan where Kid Buu was gonna destroy the kaioshin realm ignore the joules since it was before the kaioshin realm was accepted as infinite too


Buuhan is 1/50th of Kid Buu

Ultimate Gohan is over 1/2 of that for sure, as he is far above Buucilo, so he'd be far above 61.4 Ronnafoe

Buutenks is >= Gohan (which IMO was done better in the anime than the manga where Gohan just got stomped), so he'd also be far above 61.4 Ronnafoe

Super Buu is 1/2 of Buutenks, as he is SSJ3 Gotenks + Super Buu, and keep in mind that they were equal so they'd each be 1/2 of Buutenks. Thus, he'd be above 30.7 ronnafoe, which is consistent with Ultimate Gohan clapping him.
 
Agree with everything in the OP. The Post Division scaling is especially BS since that scene still happens afterwards.
  • Even if there might've been one, their post division versions have no real feats to warrant an upgrade in the scaling chain.

  • Interpreting the inside Buu fight as meaning Base Goku/Vegeta>= Gohan/Gotenks that is obviously not sound with the narrative, the scene above in the OP proves that Goku up to then was still keeping himself below Fat Buu and Vegeta was under the impression they weren't even Fat Buu level, let alone being stronger than Gohan and Gotenks in Base. What's more, Goku (pre Kid Buu fight) and Vegeta were still scared of fighting Super Buu (who's literally weaker than Gohan and Gotenks) and said he would kill them individually.
    40334308ad27e35bfca6f047cf1efc83.jpg
    The Post Division clone scaling should just be nuked entirely.
 
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SSJGeminiJJ said:
Agree with everything in the OP. The Post Division scaling is especially BS since that scene still happens afterwards.
  • Even if there might've been one, their post division versions have no real feats to warrant an upgrade in the scaling chain.

  • Interpreting the inside Buu fight as meaning Base Goku/Vegeta>= Gohan/Gotenks that is obviously not sound with the narrative, the scene above in the OP proves that Goku up to then was still keeping himself below Fat Buu and Vegeta was under the impression they weren't even Fat Buu level, let alone being stronger than Gohan and Gotenks in Base. What's more, Goku (pre Kid Buu fight) and Vegeta were still scared of fighting Super Buu (who's literally weaker than Gohan and Gotenks) and said he would kill them individually.
    40334308ad27e35bfca6f047cf1efc83.jpg
    The Post Division clone scaling should just be nuked entirely.
Click to expand...
They’re stated to be 1/100 of their power inside of there and Kid Buu fights well against Kid Buu who’s 50x stronger than Buuhan bare minimum
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
8386046-lastlosingbuu.gif
8386039-buuinside1.png
8386040-insidebuu2.png
8386041-insidebuu3.png

Super Buu admits he only survived because they were inside of his body tho, which implies that they would have actually been able to kill him had they been outside it
Click to expand...
Since he never says anything like that directly, and Goku confirms the contrary saying they'd die even if they went out, that implication is off the table
godofice said:
They’re stated to be 1/100 of their power inside of there and Kid Buu fights well against Kid Buu who’s 50x stronger than Buuhan bare minimum
Click to expand...
Goku confirms they would lose even if they were to go out and fight him
 
Can you summarize changes?

As I understand anyone that doesn’t scale to Buuhan or Kid Buu is going to become 4-B , as we can’t scale them to a feat performed by SS3 Goku such as the one in Fusion Reborn, because he has always been 2-C according to OP.
 
godofice said:
They’re stated to be 1/100 of their power inside of there and Kid Buu fights well against Kid Buu who’s 50x stronger than Buuhan bare minimum
Click to expand...
Where does that 1/100th statement come from anyway?

Adem_Warlock69 said:
8386046-lastlosingbuu.gif
8386039-buuinside1.png
8386040-insidebuu2.png
8386041-insidebuu3.png

Super Buu admits he only survived because they were inside of his body tho, which implies that they would have actually been able to kill him had they been outside it
Click to expand...
Problem is that Buu completely stomps them later in this episode and the next one.
 
Do note that the logic behind all Super Buu forms being 2-C is due to him holding his own against Gotenks, who is at least 1/2 of Buutenks, who is equal to Ultimate Gohan, who is at least 1/2 of Buuhan. If that is done away with, then oh well

I do agree that Post-Vegito Division is a mess and I have stressed that many times. But at the same time, they stress that Kid Buu is the strongest and there is literally nothing to imply that their words excluded Buuhan. So we have to make do with that mess. I think the entire Inside Buu section should be reevaluated because Super Buu shitcanning Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta even though they overpowered apparently perfect clones of Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stupid
 
Goku not being at his true capacity against Fat Buu does not put him at the level he was at against Kid Buu, ESPECIALLY not when he was so urgently trying to fuse with Gohan against Buutenks
 
Btw the 1/50th scaling doesn't work anymore because currently Vegito scales above Gogeta who stomped Janemba who is stronger than Hirudegarn who is stronger than Post-Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku (and remember, Super Saiyan Goku after having his stamina restored effortlessly overpowered Kid Buu in the struggle over the Spirit Bomb and was stated by the episode title to have "proven himself as the strongest")
 
AguilaR202 said:
Imo Fusion Reborn needs to gtfo out of main toei canon, 2-C ratings can stay due to direct comparisons to 2-C characters, but trying to fit it into the timeline makes scaling a complete mess.
Click to expand...
Trying to fit Dead Zone is a mess too but its still canon because they say it is and its referenced. Same for Fusion Reborn
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Btw the 1/50th scaling doesn't work anymore because currently Vegito scales above Gogeta who stomped Janemba who is stronger than Hirudegarn who is stronger than Post-Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku (and remember, Super Saiyan Goku after having his stamina restored effortlessly overpowered Kid Buu in the struggle over the Spirit Bomb and was stated by the episode title to have "proven himself as the strongest")
Click to expand...
Well thank goodness Buuhan is the one who does the feat and not Kid buu
AguilaR202 said:
Imo Fusion Reborn needs to gtfo out of main toei canon, 2-C ratings can stay due to direct comparisons to 2-C characters, but trying to fit it into the timeline makes scaling a complete mess.
Click to expand...
Sir_Marvulous said:
Trying to fit Dead Zone is a mess too but its still canon because they say it is and its referenced. Same for Fusion Reborn
Click to expand...
Yeah Fusion Reborn has to be canon for the same reason Deadzone has to be canon
 
OK, FusiReborn aside

Why would any Buu besides Buuhan, Kid Buu, and (a big) maybe Buutenks scale to 2-C?

Super Buu is very blatantly not remotely close to 2-C, hell the reason Buuhan is 2-C is because he does exactly what Super Buu did ( punch a hole through spacetimes) except on a multiversal scale.

The nature of the feat makes it pretty evident that Super Buu is not remotely comparable to Buuhan.

And afaik it was never confirmed anywhere that Buus absorbtions were only additives, for all we know he becomes exponentially stronger after absorbing someone, the only reason we have scaling chains placing Buutenks as 2x Super Buu and so on is because it’s an acceptable lowball to work with.
 
Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta being 2-C is fine because they're treated as being able to delay a casual Kid Buu (he's already 2-C at this point because Goku said he was the strongest Buu incarnation while using Super Saiyan 2)
 
AguilaR202 said:
OK, FusiReborn aside

Why would any Buu besides Buuhan, Kid Buu, and (a big) maybe Buutenks scale to 2-C?

Super Buu is very blatantly not remotely close to 2-C, hell the reason Buuhan is 2-C is because he does exactly what Super Buu did ( punch a hole through spacetimes) except on a multiversal scale.

The nature of the feat makes it pretty evident that Super Buu is not remotely comparable to Buuhan.

And afaik it was never confirmed anywhere that Buus absorbtions were only additives, for all we know he becomes exponentially stronger after absorbing someone, the only reason we have scaling chains placing Buutenks as 2x Super Buu and so on is because it’s an acceptable lowball to work with.
Click to expand...
I understand the concern but downscaling is the most reasonable option considering Goku and Vegeta think that Gohan and Gotenks would be helpful against Kid Buu
 
AguilaR202 said:
OK, FusiReborn aside

Why would any Buu besides Buuhan, Kid Buu, and (a big) maybe Buutenks scale to 2-C?

Super Buu is very blatantly not remotely close to 2-C, hell the reason Buuhan is 2-C is because he does exactly what Super Buu did ( punch a hole through spacetimes) except on a multiversal scale.

The nature of the feat makes it pretty evident that Super Buu is not remotely comparable to Buuhan.

And afaik it was never confirmed anywhere that Buus absorbtions were only additives, for all we know he becomes exponentially stronger after absorbing someone, the only reason we have scaling chains placing Buutenks as 2x Super Buu and so on is because it’s an acceptable lowball to work with generally speaking.
Click to expand...
Super Buu did it on a lesser scale to escape the RoSaT but why would it be exponential?
 
godofice said:
Super Buu did it on a lesser scale to escape the RoSaT but why would it be exponential?
Click to expand...

Because the disparity between their actual feats is exponential, it’s not on a lesser scale, the two feats aren’t remotely comparable, one makes a small 1 meter hole between two spacetimes, the other tears apart the entire universe sized space-times of the whole macrocosm.


I understand the concern but downscaling is the most reasonable option considering Goku and Vegeta think that Gohan and Gotenks would be helpful against Kid Buu

And how does them being ‘helpful’ translate to them being remotely comparable to Buu?

Helpful is a subjective statement it.

Mr Satan was ‘helpful’ in buying time for Goku, Mr. Buu was helpful in doing the same and so was Vegeta, and all three of them got completely btfo by Kid Buu.
 
Vegeta already scales because of that fight so that's a nonissue lol

And one of the reasons why Vegeta was so pissed at Goku's decision is because it set them back two particularly invaluable Saiyans against Kid Buu
 
AguilaR202 said:
And afaik it was never confirmed anywhere that Buus absorbtions were only additives, for all we know he becomes exponentially stronger after absorbing someone
Click to expand...
True, power increases in the series are rarely linear and tend to be more exponential.
Sir_Marvulous said:
I think the entire Inside Buu section should be reevaluated because Super Buu shitcanning Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta even though they overpowered apparently perfect clones of Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stupid
Click to expand...
Yeah i think it make more sense to assume that the clones of Gohan and Gotenks are likely less powerful as the OG ones.

And personally i think Kid Buu's statements will have to take precedence as what was established, as was likely been retcon so to make Kid Buu a bigger threat.
 
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AguilaR202 said:
Because the disparity between their actual feats is exponential, it’s not on a lesser scale, the two feats aren’t remotely comparable, one makes a small 1 meter hole between two spacetimes, the other tears apart the entire universe sized space-times of the whole macrocosm.


I understand the concern but downscaling is the most reasonable option considering Goku and Vegeta think that Gohan and Gotenks would be helpful against Kid Buu

And how does them being ‘helpful’ translate to them being remotely comparable to Buu?

Helpful is a subjective statement it.

Mr Satan was ‘helpful’ in buying time for Goku, Mr. Buu was helpful in doing the same and so was Vegeta, and all three of them got completely btfo by Kid Buu.
Click to expand...
When was Mr Satan said to be helpful?
Stefano4444 said:
True, power increases in the series are rarely linear and tend to be more exponential.

Yeah i think it make more sense to assume that the clones of Gohan and Gotenks are likely less powerful as the OG ones.

And personally i think Kid Buu's statements will have to take precedence as what was established, as was likely been retcon due of making Kid Buu more impressive.
Click to expand...
They’re as powerful as the og’s it’s in the daizenshuu just check Vegetas profile
 
godofice said:
They’re as powerful as the og’s it’s in the daizenshuu just check Vegetas profile
Click to expand...

But this go against Goku's quote of of him and Vegeta be weaker than super Buu.

Like Vegeta and Goku in SSj1 alone can fight and defeat the likes of Gotenks SSj3 and Ultimate Gohan and yet regular Super Buu its still too much.

Unless we assume that somehow Super Buu also got stronger by losing Gohan and Gotenks (even if this should only apply with Kid Buu), it just doesn't make sense.
 
Stefano4444 said:
But this go against Goku's quote of of him and Vegeta be weaker than super Buu.

Like Vegeta and Goku in SSj1 alone can fight and defeat the likes of Gotenks SSj3 and Ultimate Gohan and yet regular Super Buu its still too much.

Unless we assume that somehow Super Buu also got stronger by losing Gohan and Gotenks (even if this should only apply with Kid Buu), it just doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
That was never said
 
Bump

Would like to point out that having SS3 Goku as 2-C against janemba during Fusion Reborn means high 3-A is no longer useable for scaling, so all characters are either 4-B or 2-C.
 
Multipliers that aren't stated anywhere in canon never get accepted anyhow, just look at the Grade 3 and SSJ2/SSJ3 multipliers
 
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