Majin Buu and Gotenks' Vice Shout Scaling

[Amexim]

So... If I recall correctly, there was a thread about hax resistances that was staff only that mentioned how hax resistance scaling only works with DBZ? I was in a Beerus vs Funny Valentine battle and the topic of DBZ characters having limited Space time Manipulation came up. Gotenks' and Super But bursted a hole in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber using Vice Shout-- a scream and raw power, basically. Beerus, and all characters stronger, should have this ability, because that's how scaling works I guess.

 

[Dark649]

Except that the DB Wiki only considers Gotenks and Buu to have this ability since we never saw them doing it, so it's speculation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Except that the DB Wiki only considers Gotenks and Buu to have this ability since we never saw them doing it, so it's speculation.

If thats the case then why is it being used as a justification for them being able to destroy space-time if we never see them do it? Unless im mistaken here.

 

[Amexim]

What? We saw Buu do that! He screamed so hard that he broke through the room of spirit and time, and it's not a leap to think Gotenks'did it too. Explain.

 

[Amexim]

Not only that, but we don't have Vegeta's existence Erasure resistance listed as well, when it was through raw Power that base Goku was able to resist it. And the DB wiki also says that Goku has 2 base forms, and that the SS form against Beerus "mutated into SS Blue..." So...

 

[Dark649]

Again with this whole everyone is resistant and can do every ability because he stronger than someone, who has them, i will not take part of this since i disagree.

 

[Amexim]

But that's how DBZ works fam. Sorry.

 

[Amexim]

I'm not saying that Beerus can do time skip, but I am saying that if a character does something based off of raw Power and nothing more, them logic would dictate that a stronger character should be capable of the same feat. Or do we not use powerscaling anymore?

 

[Amexim]

Also, the DBZ wiki even points out the chapter in which Vice Shout appears.... So...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no. That's how resistances work. We already had a big thread on this before and we are not giving out resistances because one character is stronger than another. It's at best verse mechanics for DB (which in itself is inconsistent) being abused to NLF levels.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with this since it was caused by sheer AP via vice shout. Not by using some hax that is only limited to those 2 characters. This only means that releasing a threshold amount of ki interfered with the dimensional fabric and it should scale to whoever crosses that threshold magnitude of ki.

To further prove my point, this statement from Piccolo already implies that one needs to have a certain power in order to do it.

Also, Ryukama said that something which gives the explanation of it being directly related to a certain magnitude of power or ki, should be scaled to anyone who has more power or ki. And many people including Antvasima, Celestial Pegasus, AssaultWaffle and UniteMyRice agreed to it.

 

[Huesito88]

/\ even piccolo said he could do it if he was strong enough

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This was rejected when people brought it up back in early 2016. Closing.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Cal bruh you could at least explain why it was rejected or link to the thread instead of just randomly closing this.

 

[Ryukama]

Vice Shout is unquantifiable. No one gets an AP upgrade via doing it. It's just a special ability. However its a special ability that people of a certain level of strength within DB can do. It's not like Time Skip or Carrot Touch where they're just techniques and it's been proven that stronger characters don't have it.

I'm fine with dudes like Beerus or Whis having the ability, however it's whatever others think.

 

[Dark649]

Because it heavily assumes NLF, do you really expect characters like Hop having limited-space time manipulation.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"do you really expect characters like Hop having limited-space time manipulation."

That's not at all a reason.

 

[AKM sama]

I will just point out this. Buu was at a certain level and so his vice shout was able to do it.

When ssj Gotenks and Piccolo tried, they failed. It took ssj3 Gotenks, who was comparable to Buu, to successfully do it.

This is another implication of it being directly related to a certain amount of power, if Piccolo's statement was not enough.

So we got Piccolo's statement and an example directly proving that statement. What else do we need?

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

TBH Vice Shout isn't really even a technique it's just screaming hard enough to tear the dimensional wall. It's just we don't consider tearing dimensional walls quantifiable or upgradable AP wise (which we shouldn't) If they instead destroyed a planet or star with this we'd have no issues scaling stronger people to it.

From what i can see, this isnt about trying to upgrade their AP, this is about giving all who are stronger the same ability

 

[Ryukama]

@AnonymoXOtakuX Yes. I'd be fine with that but again I'll leave it up to the majority to decide upon.

 

[Dark649]

There is a reason why the DB Wiki doesn't list all the characters stronger than Super Buu with that move, also it's the same as giving all the Angels the Ultra Instinct Tecnique because Whis has it or give everyone resistance to lightning, ice, erasure and etc. from Goku and Vegeta.

 

[The_Everlasting]

The DB wiki doesn't list it because it can only show explicit users. Besides, we're not the DB wiki.

"also it's the same as giving all the Angels the Ultra Instinct Tecnique because Whis has it or everyone having resistance to lightning, ice and etc. from Goku and Vegeta."

Except this is explicitly the result of raw power. Those are just resistances.

 

[Therefir]

Vegeta get resistance to absolute zero just by powering up, so I don't know why other with similar power level doesn't get this.

 

[Ryukama]

Vegeta get resistance to absolute zero just by powering up, so I don't know why other with similar power level doesn't get this.

Grand Priest must've been crapping his pants knowing Hyssop could've frozen him at any time he wanted to

 

[Dark649]

We know that Monster Carrot would beat the Grand Priest with a Free Touch or Devilman killing King Piccolo with the Devilmite beam.

 

[AKM sama]

We know that Monster Carrot would beat the Grand Priest with a Free Touch or Devilman killing King Piccolo with the Devilmite beam.

That's sarcasm, right?

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

There is a reason why the DB Wiki doesn't list all the characters stronger than Super Buu with that move, also it's the same as giving all the Angels the Ultra Instinct Tecnique because Whis has it or give everyone resistance to lightning, ice, erasure and etc. from Goku and Vegeta.

Well, the dragon ball wiki focuses on info regarding what the characters have shown, they dont focus on if this character has it, the this one might as well, because its basically just an info page on what the series and characters have shown, even if logic says and we could all know its like that, the series hasnt shown it, so they cant have it on the pages

 

[Therefir]

Monster Carrot: Hi Grand Priest * He shakes hands with him *

Grand Priest: It's a pleasu- Rip Grand Priest

 

[Huesito88]

/\

 

[PaChi2]

@OP

Vegeta blowed up the HTC. They do have that ability. They simply dont use it to fight.

 

[AKM sama]

Goku also used vice shout to interfere with Hit's parallel space.

 

[Dark649]

Goku also used vice shout to interfere with Hit's parallel space.

I do not remember that, can you link it?.

 

[Huesito88]

/\ yeah link please I don't remember that happening

 

[Therefir]

I think he refers when Goku breaks Hit's pocket dimension just by powering up.

 

[AKM sama]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRFVN3EhPuk

 

[AKM sama]

Kale breaks Cocotte's dimension, again via typical shout + power-up.

 

[Amexim]

This thread isn't about AP upgrades, nor is this about making Wiki wide changes. DB's verse mechanics dictate that anything done using sheer AP or tanked because of their raw power should scale to characters equal to or stronger than the person. Anyone who argues against this idea must not know how DB works. I'm not saying this is valid reasoning for all verses, but it is very valid for DB. Things like the Vice Shout and Resistance to Existence Erasure were contingent on the characters' in question's power level. Vice Shout is just hax phenomenon that is caused by having a high level of power. Resistance scaling only works in DB and verses with similar rules. We're not doing hax scaling because the Vice Shout isn't hax. It's just an unquantifiable feat that characters can do at a certain level of power. And since it was ONLY done by characters with a certain level of power, then all characters who are equal to and stronger than the people who did the feat should be able to do it. It's not even hax scaling, it's power scaling. What, can Krillin not blow up a planet-- not even shake it like Nappa did?! Come on now.

 

[Amexim]

Also, DB wiki isn't a good source. They think Goku has 2 bases. If you think Goku has two base forms... Ugh.

 

[AKM sama]

Also, the counter reasoning which suggests that *insert certain character* can not do the same stuff that Gotenks and Buu did, even though they have higher power, is just like me saying *insert certain character* can not punch harder than Gotenks and Buu even though they are more powerful than both of them.

So that argument seems to be a little faulty imo

 

[Antvasima]

I am leaning towards agreeing with Dark649.