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And KuuIchigo just said to not quote large boxes of text back at each other. -_-
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Madara Uchiha vs Sosuke Aizen
- Thread starter Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki
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Srry i didnt see Kuu edit her comment lol
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That's the entire point, Madara wouldn't know how to beat it or how he's doing it, that's just how it works bro. And in relation to Kamui, this is the Madara that has both his original RInnegan, so he technically doesn't have Kamui anymore, that's Obito's unique ability. Plus it's been shown that all you need to not get hit by Kamui is speed anyways. If Minato could dodge that, I'm positive Aizen could, but that doesn't matter anyways. All in all Madara can't really beat KS and can't help falling victim to it as many times as he looks at Aizen. I think he takes this one
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To be honest this comparison doesnt even make sense now that im thinking about it. I mean if all Aizen needs to do is have ppl look at him for KS to take effect, whats the point in the battle? His opponent would literally be looking at him the instant it starts and then it unfairly works against them. This makes this even more unfair and useless to put up.
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Well Aizen has other things besides KS. He doesn't have to use it. For example, Ichigo and everyone who saw Aizen in his chair when he was brought up couldv'e been shat on right when they saw him, but he chose not to.......Or did he? And since he was basically a god before that, it makes sense that he have some remnants of that in his current arsenal. His reiatsu alone is enough to warrant Yhwach considering him dangerousAnime4Life2020 said:
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For some reason no one seems to wanna add the win and loss. And yea this fight is over
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you can request them to be added in this thread. just make sure you link the thread and state the vote count.
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^I'm doing nothing, just stating that the thread is still active. And your snide remarks are not appreciated
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Is it too late for my vote to count
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Ok so I firstly hope its not too late for my vote to count and secondly I apologise if something I say has already been adressed but I cant be bothered to read through 100 messages before commenting... Anyways, this is gonna be a long one. (Also I'll number my points if anyone wants to refute one in particular)
Ok so Im just gonna assume that the main reason for Aizen's victory is KS. I'm first gonna give two reasons as to why thats not really a match winner.
1) Firstly, Madara is the possessor of the RinneSharingan (and two Rinnegan), which makes him very resistant to illusions and consequently (by verse EQ) KS. To illustrate its potency, Sasuke's single Rinnegan (far weaker than Madara's eyes) was able to resist the IT, an illusion than has the power to capture every living thing on the entire planet INCLUDING So6P Naruto, a Moon+ Level being with some illusion resistance of his own thanks to the Tailed Beasts. I think thats as least as impressive as Aizen's KS.
2) Now, someone might say "But Aizen caught Yhwach in KS and he's like super strong". Yes, but remember he first caught Yhwach in KS before he activated Almighty and absorbed the SK, and since KS' illusions are absolute, it was a done deal no matter how strong he got. Furthermore, AP doesnt correlate with mind manipulation resistance, and iirc Yhwach doesnt have any impressive mind resistance feats. So yeah, the fact that Aizen caught Yhwach in KS doesnt mean much.
3) In addition, as shown in chapter 393, even while caught in KS's illusion one can still sense the reiatsu coming off of the blade itself and use that to locate Aizen. Seeing as Aizen has merged his blade into himself, it now stands to reason that the Reiatsu signal will be emmited by he himself. So6P Madara has insane sensing abilities thanks to his Sage Chakra and his Rinnegan allows him to see/sense energy signatures so it stands to reason that he would be able to quickly locate Aizen and take him out.
4) One might argue that "Yhwach never sensed him when he was caught under KS". Well, as far as I know, Yhwach doesn't have any impressive energy sensing feats as opposed to So6P chakra which lets you sense energy signatures across even planes of existence. Furthermore, one of Yhwach's drawbacks (much like most shonen antagonists) is his arrogance. After he activated Almighty he no longer relied on his base senses since he had already "seen" everything, so it makes perfect sense that he would not bother to scan for Reiatsu sinatures when at that point he's borderline omniscient.
5) As a final point to the KS thing, Madara has Limbo. Even if he were caught under KS before he could release Limbo (which is debatable since its one of the first things he uses), the illusion only affects the five senses, that is to say people can still act while in KS its just that they have no idea where to aim or if they even did anything in the first place. In addition, Limbo Shadows are fully autonomous, unnafected by KS and seemingly unkillable (until they return to Madara). Seeing as this is speed EQ, the four Shadows would be able to quickly overwhelm Aizen (assuming he could even sense them to begin with), splatter him thanks to the large AP advantage and release the real Madara from KS.
6) Another thing I'm sure people will mention is Aizen's immortality. There is a simple counter to that: Chibaku Tensei and TSB (cancel Regenerationn). We dont know how fast Aizen's regen is but we know its not instantaneous since he didnt regrow his severed arm back even after Yhwach was defeated, so it stands to reason that Madara would be able to mangle Aizen's body enough to the point that he could get a CT off and end the fight. Besides that he has plenty of techniques to restrict Aizen's movements: Black rods, Demonic Statue Chains, Deva Path TK, paralysis tree spores thing or restrain him with wood style. There is also the fact that we dont know how effective Soul Steal, Infinite Tsukuyomi and Izanami would be...
7) As a last thing, the only thing Aizen seems to have that would overpower Madara's regen is Kurohitsugi, but even then there is a very large difference between Aizen's AP and Madara's durability. The casual Yhwach attack that Aizen's AP is scaled from was iirc 1.4*10^29 J, whereas the feat Madara's durability is scaled from is 9.4*10^29 J, which is ~7 times more. So yeah, we dont even know if his attacks could harm him in the first place.
edit: 8) Just had another thought, Shadow Clones and Wood Clones are a good counter for KS
edit2: 9) As Akiretsu pointed out, Madara's Preta Path would nullify most if not all of Aizen's Hado including Kurohitsugi. Furthermore if he could temporarily restrain Aizen, even for a bit, he can drain his energy and add it to his own.
So yeah, I think Madara takes this mid diff.
Ok so Im just gonna assume that the main reason for Aizen's victory is KS. I'm first gonna give two reasons as to why thats not really a match winner.
1) Firstly, Madara is the possessor of the RinneSharingan (and two Rinnegan), which makes him very resistant to illusions and consequently (by verse EQ) KS. To illustrate its potency, Sasuke's single Rinnegan (far weaker than Madara's eyes) was able to resist the IT, an illusion than has the power to capture every living thing on the entire planet INCLUDING So6P Naruto, a Moon+ Level being with some illusion resistance of his own thanks to the Tailed Beasts. I think thats as least as impressive as Aizen's KS.
2) Now, someone might say "But Aizen caught Yhwach in KS and he's like super strong". Yes, but remember he first caught Yhwach in KS before he activated Almighty and absorbed the SK, and since KS' illusions are absolute, it was a done deal no matter how strong he got. Furthermore, AP doesnt correlate with mind manipulation resistance, and iirc Yhwach doesnt have any impressive mind resistance feats. So yeah, the fact that Aizen caught Yhwach in KS doesnt mean much.
3) In addition, as shown in chapter 393, even while caught in KS's illusion one can still sense the reiatsu coming off of the blade itself and use that to locate Aizen. Seeing as Aizen has merged his blade into himself, it now stands to reason that the Reiatsu signal will be emmited by he himself. So6P Madara has insane sensing abilities thanks to his Sage Chakra and his Rinnegan allows him to see/sense energy signatures so it stands to reason that he would be able to quickly locate Aizen and take him out.
4) One might argue that "Yhwach never sensed him when he was caught under KS". Well, as far as I know, Yhwach doesn't have any impressive energy sensing feats as opposed to So6P chakra which lets you sense energy signatures across even planes of existence. Furthermore, one of Yhwach's drawbacks (much like most shonen antagonists) is his arrogance. After he activated Almighty he no longer relied on his base senses since he had already "seen" everything, so it makes perfect sense that he would not bother to scan for Reiatsu sinatures when at that point he's borderline omniscient.
5) As a final point to the KS thing, Madara has Limbo. Even if he were caught under KS before he could release Limbo (which is debatable since its one of the first things he uses), the illusion only affects the five senses, that is to say people can still act while in KS its just that they have no idea where to aim or if they even did anything in the first place. In addition, Limbo Shadows are fully autonomous, unnafected by KS and seemingly unkillable (until they return to Madara). Seeing as this is speed EQ, the four Shadows would be able to quickly overwhelm Aizen (assuming he could even sense them to begin with), splatter him thanks to the large AP advantage and release the real Madara from KS.
6) Another thing I'm sure people will mention is Aizen's immortality. There is a simple counter to that: Chibaku Tensei and TSB (cancel Regenerationn). We dont know how fast Aizen's regen is but we know its not instantaneous since he didnt regrow his severed arm back even after Yhwach was defeated, so it stands to reason that Madara would be able to mangle Aizen's body enough to the point that he could get a CT off and end the fight. Besides that he has plenty of techniques to restrict Aizen's movements: Black rods, Demonic Statue Chains, Deva Path TK, paralysis tree spores thing or restrain him with wood style. There is also the fact that we dont know how effective Soul Steal, Infinite Tsukuyomi and Izanami would be...
7) As a last thing, the only thing Aizen seems to have that would overpower Madara's regen is Kurohitsugi, but even then there is a very large difference between Aizen's AP and Madara's durability. The casual Yhwach attack that Aizen's AP is scaled from was iirc 1.4*10^29 J, whereas the feat Madara's durability is scaled from is 9.4*10^29 J, which is ~7 times more. So yeah, we dont even know if his attacks could harm him in the first place.
edit: 8) Just had another thought, Shadow Clones and Wood Clones are a good counter for KS
edit2: 9) As Akiretsu pointed out, Madara's Preta Path would nullify most if not all of Aizen's Hado including Kurohitsugi. Furthermore if he could temporarily restrain Aizen, even for a bit, he can drain his energy and add it to his own.
So yeah, I think Madara takes this mid diff.
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Wait i just remembered. In addition to the Shadow Clones, cant Madara use even the most simpliest jutsu like Substitution to negate KS? Substituion will activate even if you are already hit by a technique so before Aizen uses KS Madara could just substitute himself with a log or a rock and then come back without being effected. Or he can use the transformation jutsu to transform into an inanimate object. AIzen's Perfect Hypnosis definitely can't effect anything that isnt or is close to 'non living'
And then we still have the Izanagi....
And then we still have the Izanagi....
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Oh yeah, I actually totally forgot that Madara has Preta Path. That would pretty much nullify all of Aizen's Hado... and yeah theres always Izanagi if it comes down to it...
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^^The oddest question I've ever seen on this wiki.
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@PaChi2 well you definitely can, the result hasn't been added and this is all still up for debate. Endless Narutoverse vs Bleachverse debate.
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No kidding, I predict that its gonna last for like a month...HalfAsianFan said:
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There's something else I remembered but im not sure if it can work on KS:
Remember when Itachi was put under Kurenai's Genjutsu? Despite it being used on him and already caught within it, Itachi was able to use a Genjutsu reflection and bounce it back at Kurenai, putting her in the Genjutsu instead of him. It seems to be a very basic standard for an Uchiua wtih the Sharingan
Madara is clearly a better user of the Sharingan than Itachi is so in this battle, and due to Verses Equilization, can't Madara just ignore KS and even bounce it back at Aizen? I dont recall Aizen ever having good mind ressiting feats or even having Mind Control used on him before either.
Remember when Itachi was put under Kurenai's Genjutsu? Despite it being used on him and already caught within it, Itachi was able to use a Genjutsu reflection and bounce it back at Kurenai, putting her in the Genjutsu instead of him. It seems to be a very basic standard for an Uchiua wtih the Sharingan
Madara is clearly a better user of the Sharingan than Itachi is so in this battle, and due to Verses Equilization, can't Madara just ignore KS and even bounce it back at Aizen? I dont recall Aizen ever having good mind ressiting feats or even having Mind Control used on him before either.
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^ If it did work wouldn't Aizen just notice that he's seeing himself and realize he needs to turn off KS? Also I don't feel like it would since KS > Itachi-level Genjutsu and doesn't work in quite the same way.
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@Anime4Life2020
That technique is called Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change (seriously, who comes up with these names?) and it seems to be exclusive to Itachi. I guess one COULD make an argument that Madara, being the strongest Uchiha and most proficient with the sharingan, could pull it off but that would just be speculation.
That technique is called Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change (seriously, who comes up with these names?) and it seems to be exclusive to Itachi. I guess one COULD make an argument that Madara, being the strongest Uchiha and most proficient with the sharingan, could pull it off but that would just be speculation.
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I dont think so because when Itachi used the "Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change", he seemed to take complete control of Kurenai's genjutsu, despite her being the caster. If Aizen's KS was bounced back at him, Madara (or Itachi i guess), could just make it so that Aizen doesnt notice anything of the sort. Remember, just because Aizen's KS can effect and last within anyone for as long as he wants, doesnt mean he has absolute manipulation of the illusions. Or at the very least, if it forced Aizen to turn off KS, then that would then become a huge advantage for Madara who can nullify pretty much anything else Aizen can do such as his Hado
Yea lol these names are weird. Anyways, that is a good point but don't forget Madara's eyes we're the most efficient and most powerful of the clan. Such as his eternal mangekyo, something that wasnt lacking the limitations of that of Itachis normal Mangekyo. Itachi used this technique without even needing Mangekyo, just a normal average Sharingan was enough to do the technique. Its not impossible for someone like Madara to use it either and he likely never had an opportunity to use it since, well, no one in the war arc had the opportunity to make up a good enough genjutsu to use on him. Also, i checked the wiki of the technique and it only says you need the Sharingan and Kekkai Genkai to use it, not specifically saying its exclusive to only Itachi. I could be wrong tho.
Yea lol these names are weird. Anyways, that is a good point but don't forget Madara's eyes we're the most efficient and most powerful of the clan. Such as his eternal mangekyo, something that wasnt lacking the limitations of that of Itachis normal Mangekyo. Itachi used this technique without even needing Mangekyo, just a normal average Sharingan was enough to do the technique. Its not impossible for someone like Madara to use it either and he likely never had an opportunity to use it since, well, no one in the war arc had the opportunity to make up a good enough genjutsu to use on him. Also, i checked the wiki of the technique and it only says you need the Sharingan and Kekkai Genkai to use it, not specifically saying its exclusive to only Itachi. I could be wrong tho.
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I guess? I mean there are two other illusions in the "Demonic Illusion" branch that Itachi has and Sasuke was also capable of using them so I guess you could argue that Madara can as well. Though like I said, just speculation at this point.
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Didnt Sasuke reflect one of Itachi's genjutsu's in their fight or something?
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Not that I recall, that whole intro sequence with the illusions was just a multi-layered genjutsu by Itachi.
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Ah k. Still Madara could use it but its debatable
Also cant an Uchiua actually cast a genjutsu on themselves? What if Madara does that? Then the KS really wouldnt work on him as he'd already be under an illusion.
Also cant an Uchiua actually cast a genjutsu on themselves? What if Madara does that? Then the KS really wouldnt work on him as he'd already be under an illusion.
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Here you goAnime4Life2020 said:
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@FinalBattleX01
Sasuke did break out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. And he only had the normal Sharingans. Itachi was surprised by that and Zetsu said that it "didn't matter the power of the weapon, but that of the wielder"
Sasuke did break out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. And he only had the normal Sharingans. Itachi was surprised by that and Zetsu said that it "didn't matter the power of the weapon, but that of the wielder"
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Would Shingi's hax count as "illusions"? It's been a while since i read that battle how does Shinji's hax work again exactly?
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Yes they are illusions. They are spread through the mist the sword creates.Anime4Life2020 said:
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@Faisal Firstly, I'm not really sure if Shinji's Shikai counts as an illusion, I mean it even reverses wound placement doesnt it? Its like he said, it just flips the other person's controls. Also, that doesnt really count cuz Aizen never seemed to break out of it, in his own words "all you have to do is get used to this". He was still under its effects, he just fought despite them
@Scarlet I'll take your word for it, I dont remember the Sasuke/Itachi fight that well. Might reread it later
edit: re-reading the chapter, yeh i guess it counts as an illusion. I still dont think he managed to break out of it though
@Scarlet I'll take your word for it, I dont remember the Sasuke/Itachi fight that well. Might reread it later
edit: re-reading the chapter, yeh i guess it counts as an illusion. I still dont think he managed to break out of it though
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Yes it's illusion as described on the scan. Shinji can alter people's perception and coordination of position with his illusion ability (left becomes right, top becomes bottom, forward becomes backward).Anime4Life2020 said:
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I'll vote for Madara based on reasons above.
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Still, even if Shinji's hax counts as Illusions, its as FinalBattle said. Aizen didnt look as if he broke out of it, he just fought through it despite being already under the effects of Shinji's hax. And it's justified by the fact that Shinji was already under KS so it made things easier for Aizen to fight through it. It might not be the same thing here when fighting Madara
Also, just because Aizen could resist Shinji's illusions doesnt mean he will resist his own illusions. If Madara just bounces his Perfect Hyponsis back at Aizen, what does Aizen have that stop Perfect Hyponisis from being used right back at him? And if you answer "well just turn KS off" then that will make things much more easier for Madara to kill him as KS is pretty much the only thing Aizen could do. His other techniques are getting nullified.
Also, just because Aizen could resist Shinji's illusions doesnt mean he will resist his own illusions. If Madara just bounces his Perfect Hyponsis back at Aizen, what does Aizen have that stop Perfect Hyponisis from being used right back at him? And if you answer "well just turn KS off" then that will make things much more easier for Madara to kill him as KS is pretty much the only thing Aizen could do. His other techniques are getting nullified.
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I believe Madara has this for reason's above. More versatility and a Power Advantage as well.
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Aizen for reason stated above
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Im not sure. Tho its possible considering how many characters in bleach literally tell their opponens their abilities while using them. But a quick reread might be in order to know for sure.Akiretsu said:
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