Madara Uchiha vs Sosuke Aizen

[PaChi2]

We know that KS is a complete hypnosis, but saying it could completely affect anyone even if they have shown resistance to other illusions is nlf.

 

[Perilouss]

@PaChi2

I understand it is indeed NLF, but we can reasonably extrapolate, if it worked on a character of Yhwach's scale then it should also work on Madara atleast.

Can we say the same for TSB and Chibaku tensei working effectively on Aizen? I don't believe we can.

 

[PaChi2]

Its important to note there that KS worked because it was used on Yhwach before his Almighty awakening, if it were afterwards, I doubt the situation would be the same. Oh, and TSB and chibaku tensei worked on Kaguya, so why wouldnt it work on Aizen?

 

[Riptide240]

Because this is win by KO, Aizen can't die and can still regenerate. He's literally immortal, Kaguya just had Regenerationn. Not to mention that Aizen is also smarter than Madara. If Hiruzen could figure out what the TSB do (vaporize things into dust) then Aizen could too, not to mention that it wouldn't matter to him anyways. As for the Limbo clones, if Naruto could sense them due to his enhanced sensory perception alone and physically fight them, then Aizen can too. Plus, everyone in Bleach is a master at interdimensional combat, since the verses are equalized Aizen could easily travel to that plane or bring them out

 

[Perilouss]

Pre-Almighty Yhwach should be still be atleast comparable to Madara. It also worked on Yamamoto. But I see where you're coming from

Chibaku Tensei only worked on a Kaguya that was already taken alot of damage, and her durability is inconsistent to begin with anyways

I don't seem to recall TSB being used on Kaguya, so I'd actually be really grateful if you could jog my memory with a scan or two

 

[ScarletFirefly]

As for the Limbo clones, if Naruto could sense them due to his enhanced sensory perception alone and physically fight them, then Aizen can too.

Yeah, no. The Limbo clones cannot be perceived or interacted with unless you have the Sage of Six Paths Chakra or the Rinnegan, Aizen has neither of them.

Plus, everyone in Bleach is a master at interdimensional combat, since the verses are equalized Aizen could easily travel to that plane or bring them out

So you're saying Aizen and everyone in Bleach would be able to follow Obito to his dimension, a dimesion he created? That's a NLF. Just because in Bleach people can travel between some dimensions, doesn't mean they have access to every possible one. Shinigamis have free access to the Real World and Soul Society and Hueco Mundo can be accessed through the Garganta. The Limbo world is a completely different world that has no connection whatsoever with the aforementioned worlds.

 

[Riptide240]

The verses have been equalized. the reason why BFR wouldn't work on them is because in the Bleach world, those are the only dimensions that exist, and they can travel between them freely. Obviously if Naruto characters can create pocket dimensions on the fly the in a fight with verses equalized, Aizen can do the same. Especially considering that there are already Kido and powers in Bleach that can hide them in random pocket dimensions and worlds. Also you're forgetting, Aizen and most people in Bleach aren't humans like Madara or other Space-Time users. They're souls and their world and logic work by different rules. Aizen is a straight up spirit so him just phasing between worlds or being able to sense Limbo clones wouldn't be that big of a deal

 

[Perilouss]

Isn't the limbo clones not being perceived/interacted also a NLF though?

And I'm not putting forth an argument here but possibly he meant if Aizen gets BFRed then he can just go back to the Real World?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Isn't the limbo clones not being perceived/interacted also a NLF though?
And I'm not putting forth an argument here but possibly he meant if Aizen gets BFRed then he can just go back to the Real World?

How is it a NLF exactly? And how would Madara BFR Aizen?

 

[Perilouss]

Idk, I just assumed that was the argument made, if not then that point is irrelevant

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Like I said before, Madara can just escape anything that Aizen can do with his Izanagi. There's no proof that Izanagi only works on death related situations

Also, doesnt the Sharingan even in its normal state grant Precog? If thats the case then Madara would be able to see Aizen call out KS's shikai release before Aizen even thinks of doing it himself. Then he has 4 options before Aizen does the shikai release:

1. The Izanagi choice i already listed but that would have to wait until after the release

2. Madara can set up his Limbo Clones so that even after he's under perfect hypnosis the other clones would be free and on about on their own. Then they could gang up and kill Aizen without him being able to do a thing

3. IIRC, Madara when he became the ten tails's jinchuriki took Kakashi's eye, therefore he has Kamui. He can just use Kamui on Aizen and send him to Obito's dimension, BFR. Or like how Kakashi does it, just Kamui his head off

4. Im not sure about this but since Aizen would just be a spirit here, he's a pure soul. So in this case the Rinnegan should be able to still absorb him.

Also another option:

if Madara is in control of all of the tailed beasts that make up the ten tails, or the ten tails itself, then cant he just use the beast as a partner to wake him up from perfect hypnosis? Like with Bee and Eight-o?

 

[Riptide240]

Ok has everyone lost their mind??? The Sharingan doesn't grant freakin precognition. It allows enhanced sight to the point where you can PREDICT what ur opponent will do based on body movements and patterns. And no, even if you're aware of being under Complete Hypnosis you can't break it unless Aizen wills it away

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Nvm i checked his profile again. Madara has precognition via the sharingan. So yea my scenerios can work

And isnt that kinda a No Limits Fallacy?

 

[Perilouss]

@Anime4life2020

Firstly, sharingan precog will allow him to see aizen unsheath his sword, and perhaps mutter the words. Thats about as far as his precog goes, and that would not change the outcome of the fight. Aizen shikai release is not flashy in the slightest, madara wouldn't even know he is gonna be put under KS, he will probably be expecting an attack of some sort. It's not like he can actually see fully into the future that he will be put under KS and die from it. From his standpoint he will see aizen unsheath a sword, mutter a few words and likely think nothing of it.

Secondly, KS isn't even like genjutsu in the slightest, there is no way his tailed beast will awaken him.

Thirdly, yes it is is kind of a NLF, but we can reasonably assume madara would not be able to break KS as previously explained

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Anime4life2020
Firstly, sharingan precog will allow him to see aizen unsheath his sword, and perhaps mutter the words. Thats about as far as his precog goes, and that would not change the outcome of the fight. Aizen shikai release is not flashy in the slightest, madara wouldn't even know he is gonna be put under KS, he will probably be expecting an attack of some sort. It's not like he can actually see fully into the future that he will be put under KS and die from it. From his standpoint he will see aizen unsheath a sword, mutter a few words and likely think nothing of it.

Secondly, KS isn't even like genjutsu in the slightest, there is no way his tailed beast will awaken him.

Thirdly, yes it is is kind of a NLF, but we can reasonably assume madara would not be able to break KS as previously explained

But if he is expecting an attack then it would be in Madara's character to put up a defensive counter, especially if it is something Madara has remotely no knowledge of. And not flashy? If it wasnt all that then Aizen wouldnt have tricked the other assistant captians in watching his Zanapakto's shikai release to put them under the hypnosis. People are assuming Madara is just going to sit there and let Aizen even use the hypnosis before Madara can do something to counter it. And that still doesnt counter Madara using his Limbo Clones so that even if Madara is under KS, his clones wouldnt be and they would be able to perfectly attack Aizen without any trouble. And this is still ignoring Izanagi and Kamui that Madara could use here too.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Given the way Aizen and other bleach characters are characterised they tend to say what some of their moves actually do.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

If Aizen tells Madara what kyoka suigetsu does which may happen if Aizen feels arrogant and feels like he has the upper hand in the fight then that could be a problem for Aizen, considering the fact that Madara is very analytical and will not fall for the same trick twice.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Unlike Aizen, Madara tends to keep his trump card a secret.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

I believe Aizen is faster than Madara but however he will not be able to speed blitz him. Considering that Madara has reacted to the flying thunder God which is instantaneous because it is teleportion. I am aware that when the attacks are initiated after the flying thunder God they are not instantaneous but however given the overall timing it takes for some to attack after doing something instantaneous like the fly thunder God should at least be comparable to Aizens massively hypersonic to sub- relativistic speeds.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

By the way I know teleportation is not speed. But I just wanted to make a point.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

^Speed doesn't matter here since it's equalized

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

My bad

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Since Aizen has the hogyoku, besides Regenerationn can't he adapt to attacks after he regenerates that's why he transforms into more powerful transformations.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

So after Madara hits Aizen a few times with the truth seeking balls wouldn't Aizen just adapt to them after a while.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Someone correct me if Aizen does not have adaptive evolution with the hogyoku.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

It would be appreciated if you kept your arguments into a single comment so as to not spam the thread.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Sorry, I'm new to this.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Unlike Aizen, Madara tends to keep his trump card a secret.

The irony in this statement is that we know jack about his bankai -.-

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Your right about that.

 

[Perilouss]

@Anime4life2020

Sure madara can put up a defensive counter but there is very little chance he will avoid looking at the sword, which is all that is needed for KS to be activated.

I'm saying his KS isn't flashy in the sense that it's not some big or obvious attack that you will know what is going on and how to counteract it immediately, not in the sense that it is inneffective. He was able to trick the other shinigami because his KS isn't flashy.

And after madara is under KS, there isn't much he can do at all. He could try limbos etc but that would all be in his warped perception of reality.

Madara has only ever been shown to use Izanagi to revive himself, and you really think he's gonna sacrifice his sharingan just so Aizen can just use KS again, or get rekt by visual disadvantage?

@Uchihazinon

Aizen has never told anyone the effects of KS until he's already cast it on them, rendering them useless against it anyways. You can argue that he may be cocky, but he's not stupid.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

@LordAizenSama

Don't feel too bad. Yoruichi didn't even have a Shikai, despite that her Zanpakuto was shown. And we don't even know if she and Kisuke are still alive :'(

He could try limbos etc but that would all be in his warped perception of reality.

Limbos act independently from their user. It's a possibility that they are unaffected by KS.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Even if Aizen does put Madara under the ks and then afterwards slashes Madara to the point where he is nearly dead, given the way Aizen is characterised he's not just going to leave the ks spell on a near dead Madara. If Aizen thinks he's won he will release the spell. Once Madara has regenerated he will not fall for the same trick. You can argue that Aizen maybe better at planning for certain goals than Madara but on the battle field Madara is very analytical and is better at thinking on his feet.

 

[Perilouss]

@ScarletFirefly

I'm not debating whether or not Limbos are affected by KS, I'm saying that if aizen casts KS on madara, madara can easily think he is casting limbos etc when he's really just slashing the air or something.

@LordAizenSama

So true lmao

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Madara will know that he is under ks anyway. There have been characters in the bleach verse that have noticed that they have been under the spell. Not that they were able to do anything about it but they noticed.

 

[Riptide240]

The thing about KS is that it's not like genjutsu. If u know ur underits affects, even if u try to snap out of it or someone else does, it won't go away unless Aizen wills it

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

That's assuming Aizen will use ks as his first means of attack. If Aizen does put him under ks straight away in this fight then slashes madara to the point where Madara is on the ground. Then due to Aizen's arrogance if he thinks he has won the fight or achieved what he has wanted to achieve then he will cancel the spell on ks.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

He has cancelled the spell on ks in the past when he had won fights. So why wouldn't he cancel the spell on a slashed up Madara. He cancelled a little while after he faked his death, he also cancelled after Toshiro stabbed Hinamori and after he thought Yhwach was dead. There are more but those are the ones that come to mind

 

[Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki]

3rd bump. The war goes on.

 

[HalfAsianFan]

I'm going to also have to say Aizen here. Kyoka Suigetsu has the most stupid hax I've ever seen. How's Madara going to fight if he thinks he's eating at Ramen Ichiraku?

 

[Formeraxe]

I'm going to say Aizen takes this mid difficulty. KS is unavoidable. Madara's limbo will be sensed by Aizen, so that isn't really that big of a deal for him. Aizen is also immortal via Hogyoku, which would allow him to overcome Madara's trump cards. Aizen is also many times more intelligent than Madara. I mean, Aizen would understand Madara's abilities way before Madara does the same.

"You thought you could destroy me by striking with power? How naïve. ...no perhaps we differ in our basic understandings of the word "power". I shall enlighten you. This is what is known as "power"."