Mach 2 scaling

[PartialPriority54]

So, I have thought about this for a while and I believe that the rest of 3-E should get scaled up to supersonic for the following rasons:
Kayano dodged a tentacle blow from the Reaper, which have an initial velocity of Mach 2 at their slowest ("initial velocity").

Now onto why 3-E scales to this:
Nagisa was able to save Kayano from getting speed blitzed by Craig Houjo i.e. his reaction speed should be faster than Kayano’s reaction speed for dodging an attack even Kaede didn’t notice, even though they both were looking in the same direction.

There's another short series by Yusei Matsui called Korotan which is canon to the AC verse. Korotan D in particular features Nagisa being able to perform Nekodanmashi against Rawan who was able to kidnap Kaede before she even noticed (chapter 5) and hold her hostage for a while in chapter 6. Hence, Nagisa should be able to scale to Kayano or be comparable to her at the very least.

Edit:
Now onto Itona. It makes no sense for him to have not retained his kinetic vision but Kaede to have. They both are tentacle monsters who had their tentacles removed by Korosense and had the same version of the tentacles, so why would one of them have kinetic vision and the other wouldn't? Also, Itona himself was unable to react to Maehara's ambush against him whilst Karma was i.e. Karma upscales from Kaede and Itona's kinetic vision.

Furthermore, Terasaka was also able to catch Itona's (granted suppressed Itona's) tentacle before they could harm the environment, who had the same (if not upgraded) version of the tentacles that both Kaede (the scene where she literally injects the serum inside of herself when Korosensei leaves proves that she has the same tentacles that Korosensei was experimented with) and Korosensei had.

That's 4 feats from 3 different characters. So the rest of 3-E should be scaled to this feat, notably Karma, Nagisa, Itona and Terasaka.

 

[Knowzn]

Uhhhh, we already went over the first two, and I thought we made some progress? Why are we going back to zero with nothing new?

There's another short series by Yusei Matsui called Korotan which is canon to the AC verse.

Only D is canon in the Korotan books; now for the feat: the novel takes three years after the series ends; Kaede had literally no reason to be on edge as she was throughout the series; thus, her kinetic vision simply deteriorated over time. Even if it hadn't, just a single feat is nowhere near the necessary consistency for scaling change.

 

[PartialPriority54]

Only D is canon in the Korotan books; now for the feat: the novel takes three years after the series ends; Kaede had literally no reason to be on edge as she was throughout the series; thus, her kinetic vision simply deteriorated over time. Even if it hadn't, just a single feat is nowhere near the necessary consistency for scaling change.

I can't find any biological or canonical proofs that "kinetic vision deterioration over time" is a thing. You have to prove that such a phenomena it's even canonical or realistic to apply it in AC verse. And yea Nagisa saved Kayano from getting blitzed by Houjo, that's not an outlier as far as I can tell.

Furthermore, Terasaka was also able to catch Itona's (granted suppressed Itona's) tentacle before they could harm the environment, who had the same (if not upgraded) version of the tentacles that both Kaede (the scene where she literally injects the serum inside of herself when Korosensei leaves proves that she has the same tentacles that Korosensei was experimented with) and Korosensei had. So no, Class E does indeed scale to the tentacles at their slowest.

Speaking of Itona, it makes no sense for him to have not retained his kinetic vision but Kaede to have? They both are tentacle monsters who had their tentacles removed by Korosense and had the same version of the tentacles, so why would one of them have kinetic vision and the other wouldn't? Also, Itona himself was unable to react to Maehara's ambush against him whilst Karma was i.e. Karma upscales from Kaede and Itona's kinetic vision.

That's 4 feats to prove the scaling is consistent from 3 different people. 2 from Nagisa (as a child and an adult), 1 from Terasaka and 1 from Maehara.

Uhhhh, we already went over the first two, and I thought we made some progress? Why are we going back to zero with nothing new?

I thought about your explanation again and yea not really. I don't buy the "twice as fast as initial Korosensei", we weren't even told what Korosensei's initial speed is, how do you know that Reaper 2.0's initial velocity would be twice as fast? Yea, his final velocity is twice as fast but that's also dependent on acceleration, so it's entirely possible that he accelerates much faster than Korosensei to reach mach 40 speeds. We weren't really told about his initial velocity.

 

[Knowzn]

I can't find any biological or canonical proofs that "kinetic vision deterioration over time" is a thing. You have to prove that such a phenomena it's even canonical or realistic to apply it in AC verse.

Dude, what biological or canonical proof are you talking about? If they don't keep themselves busy, people decline over time. That is simply the way things are. It is a natural assumption that verse abides by real-world laws and whatnot until something implies the opposite. Kinetic vision isn't something magical; it is something that can be trained, like in baseball or boxing.

It's not like Kaede had some particularly superb kinetic vision at birth either; it was just a remnant of tentacles. Given Yanagisawa's slight surprise and the lack of leftovers on Itona, it's likely not even something that was intended to last, and indeed, it just disappeared with time.

And yea Nagisa saved Kayano from getting blitzed by Houjo, that's not an outlier as far as I can tell.

Let’s say it isn’t.

We don't see the others; Craig might not be in their field of view, and Nagisa may have only accidentally noticed him (which is somewhat supported by the fact that everyone except Nagisa was surprised by that attack),

Craig was unable to properly counter the 3-E’s assault because he couldn’t decide whether to kill ‘em. This happens later, so Craig was clearly not aiming to kill them at the time; he wasn't going all out, so Nagisa can't scale to his speed, especially since they barely kept up with him using 28 peeps and various distractions a few pages later.

Thus, Kaede did not see Craig, and Nagisa did not react to his actual speed. This is a far safer assumption that matches everything we know. But they are assumptions all the same, which is why I said it's best to not dawdle on this feat too much.

Furthermore, Terasaka was also able to catch Itona's

He tanked it, twice. He did not react to it, twice. It kind of seems like he reacted to it the second time, but eh, Itona is far too weakened and he could have reacted to it based on the impact to his body, so that’s not reliable.

who had the same... ...Class E does indeed scale to the tentacles at their slowest.

Yeah? They are essentially same? The only different tentacle variants are Yanagisawa and maybe Reaper. What does this portion imply? It literally does not matter how they got their tentacles; their statistics change drastically based on the individual.

Speaking of Itona... ...Karma upscales from Kaede and Itona's kinetic vision.

Baseless assumptions. Ask Yūsei Matsui. The thing is, he doesn’t. Hence, the latter is unusable.

That's 4 feats to prove the scaling is consistent from 3 different people. 2 from Nagisa (as a child and an adult), 1 from Terasaka and 1 from Maehara.

It doesn't.

I thought about your explanation again... ....We weren't really told about his initial velocity.

What do you mean we don’t know? Koro's alleged speed while racing through the entire classroom dodging bullets is at best Mach 3; he allegedly moves at 370 MPH, or Mach 0.5 initially, and Reaper supposedly swings his tentacles at an immediate Mach 2. These are all stated. You don't need to be spoon-fed information. If anything, "twice as fast was" an understatement from me.

I still don't understand why you're so stubborn about this point; currently, profiles disregard those three statements as they are heavily contradicted by feats (including one feat where a precise, numerical value is written that contradicts it) and by humans' feats being better than that. If you really want us to take those three statements over narrative consistency, that directly undermines any "Supersonic 3-E" argument you might have. They won't go beyond "Athletic Human."

 

[PartialPriority54]

If they don't keep themselves busy, people decline over time. That is simply the way things are. It is a natural assumption that verse abides by real-world laws and whatnot until something implies the opposite. Kinetic vision isn't something magical; it is something that can be trained, like in baseball or boxing.

Kayano was an actress and at the ending chapter, we do know the people in 3-E regularly rely on their assassination skills to aid them in their endeavours, her kinetic vision should be no exception, especially since she was supposedly skilled at acrobatics. And how is kinetic vision not biological but instead something that has to be trained?

Craig was unable to properly counter the 3-E’s assault because he couldn’t decide whether to kill ‘em. This happens later, so Craig was clearly not aiming to kill them at the time; he wasn't going all out, so Nagisa can't scale to his speed, especially since they barely kept up with him using 28 peeps and various distractions a few pages later.

I never said Nagisa scales to Craig. That wasn't the point.

Thus, Kaede did not see Craig, and Nagisa did not react to his actual speed.

They were looking in the same direction as we saw in the other panel. The only reason Kaede didn't see Craig was because he was moving too fast for her to see him but Nagisa could because his reaction time is quicker.

Baseless assumptions

The portion about the tentacles was supposed to imply that both Itona and Kaede must have kinetic vision. That's not an assumption, it's a logical inference as they both received the same tentacles and hence should have the same powers and weaknesses, Karma already confirmed this during the pool incident when he subdued Itona with Terasaka. So logically, if Kayano had kinetic vision, Itona must too, as in AC verse Yanagisawa explained Kaede's kinetic vision through her previous use of the tentacles and not her training because it is biological.

And Itona was blitzed by Maehara, who in turn got blitzed by Karma. So yea, no, it's not baseless. Deduction =/= Speculation.

He allegedly moves at 370 MPH, or Mach 0.5 initially,

Casual Karma is Mach 0.6, so they already upscale from initial Koro. The only way this is possible is because (initial) Koro might be dodging their attacks through analytical precognition.

If you really want us to take those three statements over narrative consistency. They won't go beyond "Athletic Human".

Koro can easily be scaled to Relativistic if we undermine statements but the reason he isn't is because of the mach 20 statements. Through statements, they already have gone to mach 2 at the very least and Isogai has a feat where he caught an 87 MPH baseball quite effortlessly, so yea, they would go beyond athletic human quite easily.

And the mach 2 scaling clearly follows the statements rule: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Statements
Calcs take precedence over statements, yes but in the absence of them, I can't see why statements shouldn't be used for the purpose of scaling the cast higher, unless said statement is inaccurate.

 

[Knowzn]

Kayano was an actress and at the ending chapter, we do know the people in 3-E regularly rely on their assassination skills to aid them in their endeavours, her kinetic vision should be no exception, especially since she was supposedly skilled at acrobatics.

Where were these stated?

And how is kinetic vision not biological but instead something that has to be trained?

It’s how the series treats it, thus it is. See 3-E; they all have some form of it due to that one year of training.

I never said Nagisa scales to Craig. That wasn't the point.

And yea Nagisa saved Kayano from getting blitzed by Houjo, that's not an outlier as far as I can tell.

If that wasn’t your intention, then your text is misleading.

They were looking in the same direction as we saw in the other panel.

They were not; Nagisa is the only one looking slightly above and noticing something. Rest is surprised as hell; just because they looked in the same direction when Craig head-dived into two trees and jumped back doesn't mean they saw him.

The only reason Kaede didn't see Craig was because he was moving too fast for her to see him but Nagisa could because his reaction time is quicker.

Yeah, you need proof of it. Proof that Kaede also saw that but was unable to do anything.

The portion about the tentacles was supposed to imply that both Itona and Kaede must have kinetic vision... ...So logically, if Kayano had kinetic vision, Itona must too

Logical or not, it is baseless. Itona has no leftover kinetic vision. End of discussion.

If you want to argue otherwise, show a scan stating he has.

as in AC verse Yanagisawa explained Kaede's kinetic vision through her previous use of the tentacles and not her training because it is biological.

According to this logic, Reaper was already injected with tentacles at his introduction. Just because some can gain it through human experiments doesn't make kinetic vision "biological" at all.

And Itona was blitzed by Maehara, who in turn got blitzed by Karma. So yea, no, it's not baseless. Deduction =/= Speculation.

Your deduction is dependent on headcanon.

Casual Karma is Mach 0.6, so they already upscale from initial Koro. The only way this is possible is because (initial) Koro might be dodging their attacks through analytical precognition.

Yes, that supports how that whole initial is bogus. They do not upscale from anything in current profiles.

Koro can easily be scaled to Relativistic if we undermine statements but the reason he isn't is because of the mach 20 statements.

There are five or so relativistic feats with (depending on how you look at it) hundreds of Mach 20 statements. You cannot compare these two.

Through statements, they already have gone to mach 2 at the very least and Isogai has a feat where he caught an 87 MPH baseball quite effortlessly, so yea, they would go beyond athletic human quite easily.

They cannot go anywhere close to Koro’s initial speed of Mach 0.5; everything else will just be an outlier. You can't have your cake and eat it, either argue for Supersonic 3-E or for that initial thingy.

And the mach 2 scaling clearly follows the statements rule: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Statements
Calcs take precedence over statements, yes but in the absence of them

It follows and violates it at the same time,

• If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?

Calcs do not precede statements; it’s the opposite. Statements are generally much more reliable. This is not about calcs; it's about statements being inconsistent with narrative consistency.

Another example is CW Flash; AC is not the only example; it occurs.

I can't see why statements shouldn't be used for the purpose of scaling the cast higher

Again, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to argue for subsonic and supersonic tentacles, you'll have to give up on human characters' speed.

unless said statement is inaccurate.

Said statements are grossly contradicted by portrayal, numerical values written by the author, and human characters having better feats than it; if you think it is accurate, well...

In any case, yeah, if this were a convo on one of our walls, it's one thing, but since this is a CRT, I'll ask you to drop these conflicting proposals, select one, and argue for that.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

speed is not my thing at all so I shall simply sit and watch

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to close this thread.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/all-purpose-request-thread-new-forum.107534/post-5437684