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Mace Windu downgrade

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MasterWinduTheThird

MasterWinduTheThird

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Mace Windu should be downgraded to "6-A, 5C under proper circumstances"

The reason for this is the nature of his fight with Sidious.

I'm going to make this blunt, he is not in Sidious' league.

The only reason he was able to go head-to-head with Palpy at all was because of Vaapad's crazy amp in that moment. He never showed that kind of power against any other dark-sider he fought in the EU, including Asajj Ventress, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Kar Vastor and Count Dooku, and if he did, he would've easily killed Sora Bulq (who stalemated him), Asajj Ventress (a mid-tier EU Character that forced Mace to use all his skills and power to gain the upper hand), Depa Billaba (who actually was winning until she snapped out of the dark side), Kar Vastor (Mace won, but Vastor was winning in a head-to-head confrontation) and Count Dooku (Who won the fight, both in sparring matches and the one fight they had during the clone wars)


He was only able to fight Darth Sidious because Sidious was the "dark side incarnate" who drew from anger and hatred (exactly what Windu feeds on) and had pushed Windu's own emotional state to the extreme (which would amp him even further). And Windu couldn't even react to Palpatine before Windu started to channel Vaapad.
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
I don't see how changing lightsaber forms resulted in a power boost.
Click to expand...
Vaapad's "super-conducting loop" feeds on the dark side, more specifically the bloodlust, hatred and anger of the individual one is fighting... Exactly what Palpatine is full of.
 
I agree completely since Dooku and Mace should be around the same level and Sidious could toy with both of them (in the books, Sidious was fully capable of beating Windu but he threw the fight in order to convince Anakin to join him).
 
I wasn't sure if Sidious was pretending to be defeated against Windu, or Windu was just being overloaded with Sidious' dark side energy.

I don't see how being too much stronger than Anakin however, as Anakin had performed feats that surpassed most Jedi during the clone wars. The change to "6-A, 5-C under proper circumstances" should be considered imo.
 
Problem is that Word of God said that only Mace and Yoda could contend with Sidious as of RotS, plus the fact that he didn't actually die from Sidious' Force Lightning barrage (Instead the resulting fall due to being too drained to brace himself for the impact), so remaining 5-C seems apropriate.
 
Not really, the reason he went toe to toe with Palpatine wasn't because of his own skill, it was because of his Vaapad technique and the circumstances. If not, he wouldn't have lost to Dooku.
 
Dooku realistically shouldn't have won regardless of circumstances, as his victory was likely PIS, since, again, Mace still survived an onslaught of Sidious' Force Lightning without dying.
 
Only for a few seconds though. Yoda did this, Galen Marek did this, and Vader did this, so I imagine Dooku could survive a few seconds of Sidious' lightning.
 
Difference is Sidious was going all-out to try and kill Mace, whereas he was being casual with Galen (And Yoda was powerful enough to survive Sidious' lightning overloading his Tutaminis), I wouldn't put it past Mace to be Moon level for surviving that.
 
I think that The Everlasting seems to make sense.
 
I also agree with The Everlasting. I don't see why Vaapad wouldn't be considered within Windu's skill set if he was one of its developers and one of its very few practitioners.
 
So how serious was Palps when he was fighting Galen Marek? I had thought about upgrading the Dark Apprentice to Moon Level since Galen did incredible against Palpatine and DA is a lot stronger compared to Galen, but Vader tanking an explosion between Galen and Palps lightning without any scratches (same with Palps with Galen flattened) makes me wonder how strong Galen Marek/Starkiller is.

Is Galen even warranted a High 6-A at all? He should be much stronger than Anakin at least.

He was stronger than Pre-ANH Vader, so I dunno.
 
@Crazystarf - Sidious wasn't remotely serious about Marek

The fight between Vader and Marek could have gone either way too (cutscene in the game has him hammer Vader with a Force Repulse when Vader's visual field was obstructed by a chunk of Debris Marek hurled at him. Marek proceeds to take advantage of Vader from there and crush him with some more debris. Something about hacking off his hand with a lightsaber and Force pushing him through a window too, but I forget the exact order of each action), and Vader was 6 years from his peak strength
 
I dunno. I believe Lucas has stated that Mace Windu was plain better than Palpatine in that fight. I'm not even sure how much vaapad even helped since Palpatine can control his emotions very well compared to other sith lords.

I believe his fight with Asajj ventress and the other sith lords you mentioned had to be there due to plot convenience.
 
Mace Windu should be downgraded to "6-A, 5C under proper circumstances"

The reason for this is the nature of his fight with Sidious.

I'm going to make this blunt, he is not in Sidious' league.


^ True
 
@Crazy

Then there's how inconsistent Ventress is. In some episodes of TCW she's around the level of Ahsoka... but in others she's able to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin at once.

@Jockey

Read the above responses by me and ChaosTheory123.
 
I agree with the OP. Windu's amp in the fight with Palpatine was a one-time only thing, and very circumstantial to say the least. This is very evident in numerous parts of the novelization, like here:

"Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange."He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him." This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive. "But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—" Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?" Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way."

Vaapad's a style that uses the Dark Side of the force (well, more like channeling it) without being dominated by it. More or less like Naruto's senjutsu: he can't let the energy dominate him and be transformed into a frog statue, but when using it right he has an amp that depends on how much energy he gathered.

"Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic. Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace." For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic. He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still. And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes. Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord. He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once. They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him— That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered— All the Galaxy itself hasgone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets— Has all been for nothing. Because it was all done to save the Republic. Which was already gone. Which had already fallen. The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand."

Here we can clearly see that Mace was really angry with the "great news" that Palpatine is the Lord Sith, it's not a simple hate, he was absolutely devastated by that knowledge.

"Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."

He was submerged in Vaapad, and combining that with the insane amount of anger he was felling, there's no wonder why he proved a match for Palpatine.

"Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face. Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—" This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

And even with this circumstantial amp, he was going to be killed by Palpatine's lightning, he didn't have the strenght to fight the Lord's lightning back.
 
And all of this doesn't matter because he managed to survive being exposed to Sidious' Force Lightning for a certain amount of time, deflected a portion of a Force Blast from him and is officially stated by Word of God to being able to contend with Sidious.
 
The Everlasting said:
And all of this doesn't matter because he managed to survive being exposed to Sidious' Force Lightning for a certain amount of time, deflected a portion of a Force Blast from him and is officially stated by Word of God to being able to contend with Sidious.
Click to expand...
Yes, but not under normal circumstances.
 
The Everlasting said:
And all of this doesn't matter because he managed to survive being exposed to Sidious' Force Lightning for a certain amount of time, deflected a portion of a Force Blast from him and is officially stated by Word of God to being able to contend with Sidious.
Click to expand...


Of course he survived: he was amped by the circumstace. There's no point in bringing in that he survved to Sidous lightning while amped, it's not a normal feat for him.

And in this case, Word of God doesn't mean much when the feats are clearly on Sidious' side. Hell, he choked Dooku half-way across the Galaxy with ease, the same Dooku who was Mace's equal. Or when Mace couldn't defeat Grievous, while the General was with his feet magnetized on the train, the only thing that he could do at that moment was BFR him.
 
I'm not sure how Vaapad serves as an amp when it's a fighting style. Even General Grievous, a non-Force user, is capable of using Vaapad.
 
The Everlasting said:
I'm not sure how Vaapad serves as an amp when it's a fighting style. Even General Grievous, a non-Force user, is capable of using Vaapad.
Click to expand...
Vaapad itself isn't an amp, but in the circumstances of the Palpatine Vs Mace fight, it was.

The style is based on chanelling the Dark Side of the force (that gets stronger with hate, anger, suffering), while not getting controlled by it. Usually it doesn't make a lot of difference bcause Mace is a Jedi, so he keeps his emotions in check.

While fighting Palpatine however, he felt betrayed by The Republic. It is clearly stated in the novel that it was his biggest love: democracy, and when he realized that the Chancellor was a Lord Sith, his anger and hate come into place. While getting stronger with these Dark-side feelings, he also channeled them with Vaapad to not fall into the Dark Side itself.
 
The Everlasting said:
I'm not sure how Vaapad serves as an amp when it's a fighting style. Even General Grievous, a non-Force user, is capable of using Vaapad.
Click to expand...
It doesn't

Clowns on forums like comicvine, lacking basic understanding of orders of magnitude, make ficticious assertions shit like Force Rage amplifies powers by massive multipliers where by feats they're frankly portrayed as little more than additive bumps

Savage Opress functions as a lovely example whenever he fails to break the bodies of his peers in a Force induced rage both with his Force Powers and Striking Force

Add to it a poor understanding of shit like the super conducting loop, ignoring the moments Windu isn't in Vapaad's mindset and using the loop, and continued pandering to portrayals and accolades lower on the canon tiering scale to elevate a geriatric? You've got a confused mess on your hands to deal with.
 
ChaosTheory123 said:
The Everlasting said:
I'm not sure how Vaapad serves as an amp when it's a fighting style. Even General Grievous, a non-Force user, is capable of using Vaapad.
Click to expand...
It doesn't
Clowns on forums like comicvine, lacking basic understanding of orders of magnitude, make ficticious assertions shit like Force Rage amplifies powers by massive multipliers where by feats they're frankly portrayed as little more than additive bumps

Savage Opress functions as a lovely example whenever he fails to break the bodies of his peers in a Force induced rage both with his Force Powers and Striking Force

Add to it a poor understanding of shit like the super conducting loop, ignoring the moments Windu isn't in Vapaad's mindset and using the loop, and continued pandering to portrayals and accolades lower on the canon tiering scale to elevate a geriatric? You've got a confused mess on your hands to deal with.
Click to expand...


Of course rage amps the dark-side force users, its the basic principle of their powers.

When enraged, Opress was able to choke the hell out of both Dooku and Ventress. The same hapenned with Ventress when she was betrayed by Dooku: she was emotionally compromised and even passed by Kenobi's Force Wall, which is by no means an easy thing to do.

Vaapad is not an passive amp, it does not grant massive power-ups by default, this is the reason why Windu's was an one-time only.
 
You... didn't read anything I said

I'm saying the amplification isn't particularly large, a pithy additive bump not worth bothering with

Which is evident every time a body/limb isn't reduced to a giant bruise with nigh pulverized flesh and bones when the Force rager in question fights peers to their neutral strength

This would be obvious to anyone with passing knowledge of high school physics and were just introduced to joules

Vapaad isn't passive, you're right

It requires Windu bother to concentrate on the mindset and sink himself back into Vapaad to use the loop. 3 times in the fight are feats where he's not in such a mindset and has no access to the loop
 
ChaosTheory123 said:
You... didn't read anything I said
I'm saying the amplification isn't particularly large, a pithy additive bump not worth bothering with

Which is evident every time a body/limb isn't reduced to a giant bruise with nigh pulverized flesh and bones when the Force rager in question fights peers to their neutral strength

This would be obvious to anyone with passing knowledge of high school physics and were just introduced to joules

Vapaad isn't passive, you're right

It requires Windu bother to concentrate on the mindset and sink himself back into Vapaad to use the loop. 3 times in the fight are feats where he's not in such a mindset and has no access to the loop
Click to expand...


Just... what?

Also, Windu doesn't need to concentrate on a specific mindset, it's the style he ALWAYS uses to fight. There's no such thing as "no acess to the loop".
 
You're on a vs wiki that tries to apply numbers to its stats and you don't seem to even have a basic understanding of why, when a ****** like Opress or Ventress fails to break Kenobi's bones with singular stikes when matching blows in a Force rage, let alone neutral, that the bump can't be significant

Same when his ass gets ragdolled and he just walks it off fine and with no hampered mobility due to severe wounds he should be sporting

And yet you're wrong when he thinks to himself things like "sink back into Vapaad" during his fight in Revenge of the Sith in the narrative. Kind of indicates Vapaad is something, like most any psychic power, is something Windu needs to be concentrating on to draw from

So, other than ignorance and lies?

What arguments do you have that are worth my time buddy? :maybe
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
Language. Nothing to get riled up over. The swearing isn't bad comparatively but this wiki is for all ages.
Click to expand...
I'm not riled up?

I can try better censoring myself, but this is how I talk in everyday conversation *shrugs*
 
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