Lucius Zogratis vs Reid Astrea

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Either way i dont see him being able to do anything before Reid just...swings his sword for a 10,000km wide AoE EE, CM spatial slash

Finger movement > sword swing

 

[MrTayman616]

Finger movement > sword swing

Reid doesn't need a sword to use a sword

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I forgot to mention this earlier but if Lucius uses the gravity crush or whatever then Reid would sense his death and his godly intuition would kick in along with a blitz amp which would have him swing his arm directly at Lucius

Did I mention the blitz amp?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Jack, who can cut through Dante's gravity, couldn't do it against Lucifero's. It was even implied he and the other Captains needed Rill's assistance to move within it.

I don't think merely cutting your way out of it is gonna work

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Jack, who can cut through Dante's gravity, couldn't do it against Lucifero's. It was even implied he and the other Captains needed Rill's assistance to move within it.

Well Jack doesn't have type 2 concept Manipulation and neither does he have many other feats comparable to Reid

Also the method both of them achieve their cutting through aren't the same. Jack uses magic, which Lucifero is resistant to, and Reid uses pure skill

 

[Zabazab]

Reid's simple view of his wild feats provides him with extreme aura but it makes explaining it ASS.

 

[MrTayman616]

Reid's simple view of his wild feats provides him with extreme aura but it makes explaining it ASS.

"How does he do it?"
"He just does."

 

[Arnoldstone18]

lol Lucius can stop time across the entire country like Julius did. Infact he was going to do it again as soon as Yuno’s time negating field was done for. 4Km range is not a problem. Why is this two pages?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Well Jack doesn't have type 2 concept Manipulation and neither does he have many other feats comparable to Reid

Also the method both of them achieve their cutting through aren't the same. Jack uses magic, which Lucifero is resistant to, and Reid uses pure skill

Concept Manipulation only matters to the concepts a character has shown to affect. I don't see how it's relevant here unless he sliced the concept of gravity

Lucifero's body is magic resistant, not his spells.

And Jack creating his blades is the only magical part of the process. His cut through stuff was done via his pure skills and battle instincts.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

lol Lucius can stop time across the entire country like Julius did.

You are severely misinterpreting events

Julius never stops time across the country, he uses Crono Anastasis to reverse it and even at that he didn't actually affect everything in the country anyway, it only affects the attack he was reversing.

I'm assuming you are extrapolating the fact that when Julius used that spell(which is specifically a time reversal spell) Lichts(Patri) attacks briefly froze before reversing to mean that Julius can just straight up freeze time across the entire country as a means of halting his opponents... Which is frankly ridiculous because

• Julius acknowledges the limited range of his time magic when it comes to freezing people which is why he has to teleport in close to them first before doing it
• If Julius could stop time across the country in the way you are implying he would have instantly won his fight with Licht rather than having to teleport around like a madman in order to get close enough to trap him in a time frozen bubble
• When Lucious took over and used his own Lucifero amped version of Julius power the range of his time stop extended to like building sized and that's acknowledged to be huge by asta and he acknowledged he could get that range because he absorbed Lucifero (Obviously if Julius range was country level he wouldn't have said the reason he could pull off that building sized range was due to absorbing Lucifero)

Concept Manipulation only matters to the concepts a character has shown to affect. I don't see how it's relevant here unless he sliced the concept of gravity

All of his slicing effects are the result of that's concept manipulation, that's why all those abilities are subgrouped under it on his profile.

Lucifero's body is magic resistant, not his spells.

And Jack creating his blades is the only magical part of the process. His cut through stuff was done via his pure skills and battle instincts.

His gravity magic nullifies magic

Jack's ability is that his blades have reactive evolution, him creating them isn't the only magic part of the process. His literal profile on this site says as much.

Severing Magic 「裂断魔法 Retsudan Mahō」: A magic attribute that allows the user to create blades from mana. Blades extending from the forearms are for close-range combat, while larger slashes can be released for mid to long-range combat. The blades adapt and sharpen as they clash with enemies' magic.

Reactive Evolution and Reactive Power Level (His Severing Magic transforming its properties to match the magic, making his attacks faster, stronger, sharper and more durable, or even adapting his magic attribute to slice intangible attacks such as Gravity Magic),

This wouldn't be listed under his magic of creating the blades was the only part of the process that was magic, it would be listed under swordsmanship skills or his intelligence

You are literally just lying because the effect operate by him transforming the nature of his magic rather than him doing anything to the process in which he cuts or his swordsmanship.

If you cut out the magic part of him transforming the nature of his magic then he can't perform it because there's nothing to transform

The only part involving skill is that his innate instincts recognize what to transform his magic into but the process by which he does it is purely magical seeing as how it is literally transforming his magic rather than making alterations to the way he cuts things or his skill at cutting them


to cut gravity is a result of his magic, there has never been even a single moment in the manga where he performs such supernatural cuts like gravity, regen negation and space Erasure cutting through sheer skill alone which are the kinds of things Reid does through sheer skill

 

[Epsilon_R]

All of his slicing effects are the result of that's concept manipulation, that's why all those abilities are subgrouped under it on his profile.

Again, that is limited to what he has shown to cut, like every concept Manipulation

Just because he has shown to cut space with concept Manip doesn't mean he can do the same for time.

So again, has he actually cut through gravity with it? Assuming he can even move any part of his body to cut in the first place.

His gravity magic nullifies magic

???? No it doesn't? How do you think they could use magic against him if it was the case?

Jack's ability is that his blades have reactive evolution, him creating them isn't the only magic part of the process. His literal profile on this site says as much.

Again, the profiles are outdated.

This wouldn't be listed under his magic of creating the blades was the only part of the process that was magic, it would be listed under swordsmanship skills or his intelligence

Outdated profile.

Responding to the rest later

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Again, that is limited to what he has shown to cut, like every concept Manipulation

Just because he has shown to cut space with concept Manip doesn't mean he can do the same for time.


So again, has he actually cut through gravity with it? Assuming he can even move any part of his body to cut in the first place.

What the hell are you even talking about??? I already told you that all the abilities and things to do with him cutting stuff are done via the concept manipulation which is why they are all subcategorized under it on his profile. These aren't seperate abilities, they are various applications of that one ability.

The concept manipulation is the thing via which the rest of the cutting feats are performed, nothing you've said here is relevant to the conversation if that fact doesn't change. Unless the concept manipulation isn't the means by which he achieves these feats then what you're saying here is completely irrelevant.

When one or more abilities have multiple applications, those are listed under them to show that despite them being wildly different effects they stem from the same method of being achieved.

???? No it doesn't? How do you think they could use magic against him if it was the case?

They amped themselves using Rills magic but the gravity can nullify magic when specifically targeting that.

Again, the profiles are outdated.

Not only is that irrelevant since for the purpose of this conversation only information already on the profile is relevant but also again there are 0 feats of him achieving supernatural cutting via skill alone and the literal scan explaining how he adapts says word for word that it's done via changing the nature of his magic so nothing there is even wrong to begin with.

Outdated profile.

Responding to the rest later

Again completely irrelevant.

Whether you think it is outdated or not doesn't matter in this conversation because for the purpose of VS discussions whats on the profile is what is actually relevant.

To further go into my point lets examine the actual scans explaining his reactive evolution to show that literally everything I've said bout it isn't even outdated to begin with. I said -

You are literally just lying because the effect operate by him transforming the nature of his magic rather than him doing anything to the process in which he cuts or his swordsmanship.

The only part involving skill is that his innate instincts recognize what to transform his magic into

Which is literally exactly how his ability to adapt his magic is explained

Yami -

"He cuts through all sorts of spells by transforming the nature of his magic using his innate instinct"

Clearly my point of his Reactive Evolution being the result of changing the nature of his magic rather than the way in which he cuts things or his technique in swordsmanship is correct. If it had anything to do with sheer swordsmanship skill he wouldn't be changing the nature of his magic.

 

[Zabazab]

Again, that is limited to what he has shown to cut, like every concept Manipulation

I think I see the clarification you want. Reid would not be cutting the concept of the gravity, but instead it'd be more like using the concept of cutting to cut the gravity.

Reid’s slash cut through space, severing sound and colour alike.

Whether it was the sword of selection or the chopstick, it became a manifestation of the very concept of a sword as long as he was holding it.

A sword was an object that was meant to cut things.

Swordsmanship was the technique of cutting things with a sword.

That meant a slash that could cut through everything in this world was both the greatest achievement and the ultimate desire of the sword and swordsmanship itself.

Anything cut by this all-powerful slash would never be able to forget that fact for all of eternity.

That was why the scar beneath Julius Juukulius’s left eye would never fade.

It was the price of challenging the Sword Saint’s sword head-on. —Volume 25, "Good Loser"

Clasping both her hands, using all of Subaru’s paltry MP, Beatrice activated great magic to manipulate space itself.

“Ul Shamak.”

Right after her incantation finished, a massive black hole appeared.

An endless, bottomless, black hole evoking a primordial fear attempted to swallow Reid whole and send him to the great beyond. Space twisted, and Beatrice’s spell—

“What's this, a breeze? There’s nothin' special 'bout some breeze ya can find anywhere. Ya think that’ll stop me?”

Reid casually silenced the massive spell with a single swing of his chopstick.

Dimension Slash— an attack so powerful that anyone else would consider it their ultimate move, and Reid used it incredibly casually. The slash’s blast wave raced toward Subaru and Beatrice. —Volume 25, "■■•■"

The only things Reid has regarding cutting concepts themselves are vague things like "That slash could cut through even concepts.", and the possibility of scaling above Murasame (which he doesn't on his page).

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Well Jack doesn't have type 2 concept Manipulation and neither does he have many other feats comparable to Reid

but he should have, as you yourself showed, Jack's magic, "CUT", changes its own NATURE to adapt to what it is going to cut with the height of this magic being able to cut everything in a universal way, that is, it is a CM2 just like Reid's but instead of manipulating the "idea of the sword" it manipulates the "mana of the cut"

Also the method both of them achieve their cutting through aren't the same. Jack uses magic, which Lucifero is resistant to, and Reid uses pure skill

it doesn't matter, the fact is that the verse profiles are outdated the verse page itself makes this clear , and the verse should have CM2 which is Reid's main weapon, in layers because any and all magic is using mana which is the fundamental aspect, the natural law, which is present in all things including concepts

 

[Zabazab]

Jack's magic, "CUT", changes its own NATURE to adapt to what it is going to cut with the height of this magic being able to cut everything in a universal way, that is, it is a CM2 just like Reid's but instead of manipulating the "idea of the sword" it manipulates the "mana of the cut"

In my limited knowledge of CM, I wouldn't think of this as qualifying. The magical blades' nature changing doesn't constitute it changing itself at a conceptual level, nature most often is synonymous for behaviour. In this case, the way in which the blade interacts with other things is what changes.

Do I have to explain why manipulating the [Concept of] something and manipulating the [Supernatural Energy of] something aren't equivalent?

the verse should have CM2 which is Reid's main weapon, in layers because any and all magic is using mana which is the fundamental aspect, the natural law, which is present in all things including concepts

The first scan only says mana is fundamental and floats through the air, then enters people and turns into magic power, which can then be refined into magic. It does not call mana metaphysical, conceptual, or abstract, and it does not call it "the natural law".

The second scan says mana is present in all things, and the translator specifically says it refers to "throughout the cosmos". Once again, the metaphysical is not mentioned in regards to mana.


But this was a digression, as seemingly none of this is accepted.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

but he should have, as you yourself showed, Jack's magic, "CUT", changes its own NATURE to adapt to what it is going to cut with the height of this magic being able to cut everything in a universal way, that is, it is a CM2 just like Reid's but instead of manipulating the "idea of the sword" it manipulates the "mana of the cut"

Non of this is
a) Accepted on any profile
b) Even correct to begin with, "being able to cut everything in a universal way" is a specific string of words that has never been uttered by anyone in black clover nor would that even qualify as justification for Type 2 concept manipulation with how meaningless and vague it is.

Reid is able to directly manipulate and manifest the concept of cutting to cut thing which has nothing to do with jack changing the nature of his magic so that it can cut through his opponents magic... These 2 things have no correlation or overlap.

He's not manipulating the "mana of the cut", again these words have never been uttered by anyone in black clover what he is doing is changing the properties of his magic so that it can interact with and cut through the magic of others.

it doesn't matter, the fact is that the verse profiles are outdated the verse page itself makes this clear , and the verse should have CM2 which is Reid's main weapon, in layers because any and all magic is using mana which is the fundamental aspect, the natural law, which is present in all things including concepts

Again unless something is accepted for the purpose of this thread it's completely irrelevant but even if I indulge this completely irrelevant arguement it doesn't hold up at all.

Not a single statement says mana is present in concepts, you are extrapolating a very unspecific statement talking about how mana is everywhere and present in everything to mean that it is present stuff never said to house mana or be composed of mana. Literally provide even 1 single statement where these exact words are uttered - "Mana is present in concepts"/"Concepts are made of mana". Even the "Present in all things" statement you provided does not say that nor will we assume it means that based off such vague nonsense.

Mana is fundamental in the sense that it is everywhere in the setting, like natural energy in naruto, not that it is a concept or a fundamental building block on which things like concepts are made. If that were the case Asta's anti-magic would delete reality around him when it deletes mana which clearly never happens.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

In my limited knowledge of CM, I wouldn't think of this as qualifying. The magical blades' nature changing doesn't constitute it changing itself at a conceptual level, nature most often is synonymous for behaviour. In this case, the way in which the blade interacts with other things is what changes.

my argument is not NPI, but CM2 for "Cut", which makes the point of interacting with concepts irrelevant, and changing the inherent nature of something qualifies as CM2 on the Wiki

Do I have to explain why manipulating the [Concept of] something and manipulating the [Supernatural Energy of] something aren't equivalent?


The first scan only says mana is fundamental and floats through the air, then enters people and turns into magic power, which can then be refined into magic. It does not call mana metaphysical, conceptual, or abstract, and it does not call it "the natural law".

The second scan says mana is present in all things, and the translator specifically says it refers to "throughout the cosmos". Once again, the metaphysical is not mentioned in regards to mana.


But this was a digression, as seemingly none of this is accepted.

but this includes concepts, and mana itself is more fundamental, more abstract and difficult to interact with concepts than concepts, so much so that Morris who can affect concepts with demonic power cannot touch Mereoleona who has become pure mana

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Non of this is
a) Accepted on any profile

Yes, not only me but several supporters are talking since the beginning of this topic, the profiles from Black Clover are outdated

b) Even correct to begin with, "being able to cut everything in a universal way" is a specific string of words that has never been uttered by anyone in black clover nor would that even qualify as justification for Type 2 concept manipulation with how meaningless and vague it is.

'-'

He's not manipulating the "mana of the cut", again these words have never been uttered by anyone in black clover what he is doing is changing the properties of his magic so that it can interact with and cut through the magic of others.

yes, but we have the statement that each magic has its own mana, and each wizard can manipulate only one type of mana related to his magic, this means that although it is not stated, the magic of cut, has the cutting mana

Not a single statement says mana is present in concepts, you are extrapolating a very unspecific statement talking about how mana is everywhere and present in everything to mean that it is present stuff never said to house mana or be composed of mana. Literally provide even 1 single statement where these exact words are uttered - "Mana is present in concepts"/"Concepts are made of mana". Even the "Present in all things" statement you provided does not say that nor will we assume it means that based off such vague nonsense.

In my comment above I already addressed this and showed some scans about it ,but there is more context that covers this.
Example:
Henry feeling the mana of the black bulls from within the world of glamour, which is a space made of dreams and declared to be a concept by Morris

Mana is fundamental in the sense that it is everywhere in the setting, like natural energy in naruto, not that it is a concept or a fundamental building block on which things like concepts are made. If that were the case Asta's anti-magic would delete reality around him when it deletes mana which clearly never happens.

mana is a fundamental aspect of the type that....

If it is removed from someone, the person dies.

If altered it can change the shape of the soul and alter the quality/nature of the magic

Resides at the origin of the soul

Through the mana zone it allows the mage to have "universal" control over his element in a certain area.

It is more fundamental and abstract than concepts

. If that were the case Asta's anti-magic would delete reality around him when it deletes mana which clearly never happens.

A conclusion has never been reached within the Wiki about Asta's clear Durability Negation, and we see antimagic erasing/deconstructing matter throughout the series, in addition Asta began actively erasing mana only in the Spade arc and can even mana zones that are manipulating the environment itself

Of course, if you want a protagonist who erases the existence of everything he touches or comes close to, I believe that "Besto shounen" can't really give you that.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Yes, not only me but several supporters are talking since the beginning of this topic, the profiles from Black Clover are outdated

It's not relevant though because again like I've said since this started for the purpose of a vs discussion what's on the profile is what is relevant

'-'

Link doesn't work at all

yes, but we have the statement that each magic has its own mana, and each wizard can manipulate only one type of mana related to his magic, this means that although it is not stated, the magic of cut, has the cutting mana

Again you are extrapolating things that have no connection

Each individual mages mana being keyed to an element such that Mages have magic specifically to a thing doesn't mean that those things are composed of mana to begin with... The statement itself only serves to explain why each mage is keyed to a specific affinity and has nothing to do with saying that those elements or the concept of those elements are composed in of themselves, that is never stated so again I will point to the clear fact that Asta doesn't delete reality around himself when he uses anti-magic to erase mana on a regular basis. If you're claim was true then that would be what happens, but clearly it doesn't.

The idea of having an energy which is keyed to specific elements isn't even rare or particularly hard to find in fiction but it doesn't mean that those component as they exists in reality or their concepts are made of that energy. "Magic of cut" or "Cutting mana" don't qualify for concept manipulation at all, much less type 2 concept manipulation, these are just energies keyed to a specific thing without it being the abstract concept that serves as source of that thing across reality.

In my comment above I already addressed this and showed some scans about it ,but there is more context that covers this.
Example:
Henry feeling the mana of the black bulls from within the world of glamour, which is a space made of dreams and declared to be a concept by Morris

The Glamour world is a separate dimension dream world, which regardless of being made of dream isn't a concept in of itself as not a single statement saying that exists.

Morris does not utter the worlds "The Glamour world is a concept", stop doing this thing where you just link scans to a string of words that were never uttered within them.

Morris just says he can interact with concepts which means even Dorothy's ordinarily invincible magic can't defend against, this would be like if Morris deleted a person with his magic and since it messes with concepts then you claim that person is an abstract concept in of themselves or that this person is the concept of humanity in general (because yes to qualify for type 2 you would need Dorothy's dream magic/glamour world to be the concept of dreams in general, which obviously isn't true seeing as how dreams still exist despite it being destroyed by Yami once and messed with by Morris). Dream magic and the glamour world don't have to be concepts in of themselves for him to mess with it via the manipulation of concepts, in the same way a regular dude doesn't have to be a concept for them to be hurt/killed or outright erased by concept manipulation, they just have to have a concept.

Lilith and Naamah both say they can interact with concepts and when they did so the things listed as them affecting to draw that conclusion were stuff including Light which obviously doesn't exist purely as an abstract concept but by your logic they would be saying that light in of itself is an abstract concept.

mana is a fundamental aspect of the type that....

If it is removed from someone, the person dies.

They literally say in that very scan that you posted that the reason for this is that mana dwells in life energy so if they wring ever last drop of magic out the person will die (Keep in mind the thug explaining this says they should wring out every last drop of "Magic" anyway)... this has nothing to do with mana being "fundamental", instead it has to do with how fully draining magic the magic out of someone with the method used can kill them due to magic being tied to your lifeforce but even if this wasn't the case your argument still wouldn't work because you are arguing that mana is a fundamental concept which if removed/erased would literally delete the person from existence rather than just kill them but clearly that doesn't happen.

A clear way to emphasis this, we have Asta who can sometimes delete all the magic in a person without messing with the lifeforce and the result if that the target doesn't die

If altered it can change the shape of the soul and alter the quality/nature of the magic

Non of that has anything to do with concept manipulation, if the nature of your magic is tied to your soul then changing it will automatically mean you are changing the soul... Nothing here is messing with concepts nor proof of concept manipulation

Resides at the origin of the soul

There is no statement saying the exact words "Manda resides at the origin of the soul" though even if there were that has nothing to do with conceptual manipulation much less Type 2 conceptual manipulation.

Through the mana zone it allows the mage to have "universal" control over his element in a certain area.

Controlling all the water in an area doesn't have anything to do with the word "Universal" as it pertains to metaphysics and the statement you yourself posts don't even ******* say that word

The princess has the heart kingdoms mana method which lets you control natural elements by controlling mana, nothing there has anything to do with mana being a concepts or controlling the concept of those elements which govern them across all of reality.

It is more fundamental and abstract than concepts

Nothing in this statement says the words "Mana is more fundamental and abstract than concepts".

Morris with Lucifero's power is different than Morris with paladin powers, he has completely different abilities and doesn't have concept manipulation in that form. Your conflating 2 completely separate things with each other

A conclusion has never been reached within the Wiki about Asta's clear Durability Negation,

Lucifero amps his durability entirely through his pure magic power and as a devil is largely a magic based being which obviously would get harmed by Asta's anti-magic. If magic was what you claimed, a concept fundamental as such that it would qualify for type 2 concept manipulation, it to be Lucifero would have been erased from existence the moment he touched asta's sword because his literal concept would have been damaged or erased

and we see antimagic erasing/deconstructing matter throughout the series,

It has erased/deconstructed things made of or composed entirely out of magic, Physical components like peoples bodies have never been deconstructed or erased by Asta slamming them with anti-magic, rocks don't get erased when asta drops his anti-magic swords on them.

The greatest effect it has had in that regard is causing flowers to wilt because mana is tied to lifeforce

Asta began actively erasing mana only in the Spade arc and can even mana zones that are manipulating the environment itself

Regardless of how early Asta has erased mana rather than magic he has even after these event done it in an area without erasing the actual physical matter in it, if mana was literally a fundamental concept the everything around him would get erased when he erased it, his swords would delete the ground beneath him when he drops them etc. non of this happens

Again you are conflating things that have no relations with scans that don't match what you are saying, Mana zone can control the environment to allow the user create mana footholds to walk on and such but that has 0 relation to concept manipulation and Natchs sealing was a dedicated spell rather than a result of some intrinsic property of all mana, he says word for word that they broke his spell and that said spell doesn't physically exist which doesn't have anything to do with the innate property of all mana (Nor would it even mean mana is a concept much less a type 2 concept) as you can use mana to create spells that do physically exist.

Nothing you've said is relevant nor actually meaningful

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Reid takes this imo

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Reid takes this imo

When a Re:zero character loses for you? That is the real question

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

When a Re:zero character loses for you? That is the real question

Spoiler: .....

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

When a Re:zero character loses for you? That is the real question

A lot of times actually (but you did have to find them)