Lucario vs Giorno Giovanna

[NekoMorgana647]

They share the same Japanese VA in games, so this is a good matchup.

Round 1: Canon Lucario vs. Giorno without GER

Round 2: Pokemon 7 Lucario vs Giorno with GER

Speed equalized, win via KO or Death depending on their morals.

 

[Zel97]

Not sure about round 1,looks like a stomp for lucario

Round 2 is a stomp for giorno via willpower M and causality M

 

[NekoMorgana647]

How does GioGio even get past that Lucario's durability anyway? His infinite deaths only trigger if he kills said foe, and physically GER is only building level (or below that cuz we rarely see it punch stuff other than a somewhat ordinary pink haired man), IK the casualty part ignores durability but it doesn't hurt said foe physically to the point where they are grievously wounded.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

How does GioGio even get past that Lucario's durability anyway? His infinite deaths only trigger if he kills said foe, and physically GER is only building level (or below that cuz we rarely see it punch stuff other than a somewhat ordinary pink haired man), IK the casualty part ignores durability but it doesn't hurt said foe physically to the point where they are grievously wounded.

Willpower manip. It forces Lucario to just quit.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

But does it actually reset willpower? Diavolo didnt seem lazy after Giorno reset his actions. He looked more pissed judging from how he called Giorno a damn kid in an angry manner, I get that it was stated in the manga that it does that, but the illustration contradicts the writer statement.

Imo its a stalemate cuz of that, Giorno just lolnopes Lucario forever and barely puts a dent in him, but I'm just interested in hearing other's opinions.

 

[Zel97]

Yes,he resetted diavolo's actions not willpower back when they fought but we do know ger can reset willpower because of the stand profile and a bunch of other source. His willpower reset is done via empathic M as disscussed in a previous thread.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

In character does he even do that? Or know about it? It seems kinda ambigious because it seems like his go-to is punching his foe to death after resetting their actions.

Also it seems like Lucarios resist mind hax with their aura

 

[Zel97]

He didnt do it likely because he wanted diavolo to suffer,he hated diavolo's guts,why settle the fight with an incap when he can make diavolo suffer for eternity. Plus he did it to diavolo when he got bfr'd. You need resistance to empathic M,

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Tbf, empathic manip is a subset of mindhax, so Lucario should resist

 

[Zel97]

Tbf, empathic manip is a subset of mindhax, so Lucario should resist

Empathic M is USUALLY associated with mind M meaning they are related but not entirely the same. Why give someone both res to empathic M and mind M when mind M alone is enough,i've seen this in a lot of profiles. Thats like giving a char both res to willpower M and empathic M,seems redundant

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Diavolo wasnt lethargic in his infinite deaths, lol, he was beaten up, paralyzed cuz of GER's effect (yet still not lazy and was willing to move, alas he couldn't), and then scared cuz he was dying so much that he became batshit crazy. His willpower wasnt set to zero at that time.

Well Willpower M does affect your psyche, so it would fall under mind based which Lucario resists, yep this is a stalemate in R2

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

R1: Lucario stomps due to NPI, raw AP, and aura sensing allowing him to see Gold Experience. Probably would stomp unequalized if he stays out of range.

R2: Unsure if GER is still you need to get hit or got changed to you need to kill. If it's the former, he wins. The latter, stalemate.

 

[Zel97]

Its associated with mind M,again if they are the same why the hell do a bunch of chars have both res to mind M and empathic M. Empathic M is not a subset of Mind M,they're related.idk why he would be scared by a guy with a knife but sure whatever suits you,doesnt change the fact that he has willpower M and giorno always goes all out from the start which is why the part ended the moment he achieved requiem. Make a crt about the willpower part

 

[Zel97]

R1: Lucario stomps due to NPI, raw AP, and aura sensing allowing him to see Gold Experience. Probably would stomp unequalized if he stays out of range.

R2: Unsure if GER is still you need to get hit or got changed to you need to kill. If it's the former, he wins. The latter, stalemate.

He needs to kill so death loop aint ganna work,willpower M will and if we're counting novel feats bfr works but i doubt novel feats counts since its non cannon(should have at least make a seperate key for novel giorno tho)

 

[Chariot190]

>Novel feats

He has canon BFR feats too, I mean Diavolo didnt appear in alternate worlds for no reason, also GER's will power manip isnt even really a subset of mind manip, it's just setting the will of a target to 0, has the same effect but how something is done is critical.

Also I'd like to point out, >Lucario stomps due to NPI, raw AP, and aura sensing

Lucario's NPI comes from interacting with ghost types (which is somewhat dubious given ghost types have shown time and time again that they have two states, the intangible state where attacks phase through them and a semi-corporal state where attacks can hit em and even normal humans can interact), yet in JoJo, not even ghosts can interact with Stands if i recall so while he has NPI, it may not be enough. Also same with the aura sensing, while it does say it can sense the aura of things to see targets that it can not see, I'm certain it means that opponents that are hiding or out of sight (given it's aoe) not something literally invisible to it. Also, Giorno does have a wincon in the form of attack reflection and depending on his reaction to Lucario, it may be a viable strategy he can and would pull off. I dont think that's enough to offset Lucario's advantages though, if by canon it's game-only then Giorno has a definite shot at winning and may actually do so if he realizes that he's at a huge AP disadvantage initially but if by canon it means other things included like anime and spinoff feats then Lucario would win far more often then not due hax versatility on top of his ap.


Basically canon Lucario may actually lose to Giorno if Giorno realizes his disadvantge first off. Although it's hard to say if that's enough to win, but may be if canon means mainline game only feats and info, if not then yeah probably teetering on a stomp even with attack reflection. Tough call honestly.

 

[Zel97]

I disscussed with efi about canon ger having bfr,he said that its bfr works in tandem with death loop so it aint as deadly as the novel ger feat of sending poeple to the shadow realm without needing a death

Also can you elaborate on the willpower reset not being related to empathic M part? I dont fully understand it

 

[Chariot190]

Well, no offense to Efi, but that's merely conjucture on her part. In every single piece of canon information on GER it never makes note that the BFR is apart of the the death loop, and of course, why would it? Why would setting a death to zero be needed to BFR? It's two completely different things with no relation to each other, of course it's comboed together but in the end, assuming that a death is needed to BFR doesnt make much sense, what does a death gota do with BFR? The answer is nothing, at best it's debatable and could be either or, but to claim that it must have a death is tandamount to claiming an opinion as fact, which is never how one does things, claim that it's what you truly think but don't try and enforce what is ultimately just an opinion as factual.

It means that GER isnt manipulating the mind or empathy to set will to zero as such having resistance to those things may not actually prevent GER from setting a target's will to zero. tbh I don't quite know how GER pulls it off, it isnt through causuality manipuation, but it isnt mind manipuation either. In all things that talk of it it says and makes note of it being set to 0 or set to nothing, even this bit of text, not sure what it qualifies but the same page says that GER has the power over nothing if I'm reading it correctly (could be wrong, not exactly fluent in japanese). Also now this just became a GER discussion, should save any discussion like this for elsewhere as to not derail so gonna drop it.

 

[Zel97]

Darn you should make a crt to clean ger's profile and set what it can actually do dude,im not knowledgeable enough to make a crt on him but i doubt you have the time tho

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Attack reflection isnt always an OHKO though and in character Giorno rarely does that (woulda been handy in most of the Part 5 fights tbh), Koichi survived it and without his stand he's just an ordinary teenage boy. I could see it stunning Lucario for a bit, but not killing him like it did with Leaky Eyed Luca, but even then, Lucario is far from a plain old human being.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

Koichi survived it and without his stand he's just an ordinary teenage boy.

You're forgetting that he held back, that's how he survived it. Meanwhile Lucca did a full-force swing without any mercy.

 

[Chariot190]

>Attack reflection isnt always an OHKO though and in character Giorno rarely does that (woulda been handy in most of the Part 5 fights tbh), Koichi survived it and without his stand he's just an ordinary teenage boy. I could see it stunning Lucario for a bit, but not killing him like it did with Leaky Eyed Luca, but even then, Lucario is far from a plain old human being.

You right it isnt always a Ko but that doesnt matter in this, secondly it really wouldnt of been handy for most of Part 5 (I recommend watching Hamon Beat's new video plus it being out of character is dubious given he does it initially every chance he got, it's more of a case of PIS due to being broken but then again, that's why I said if Giorno picks up on his ap disadvantage, because if he does that, then there's not exactly a huge reason as to not do that), Koichi survived it because Koichi explicitly held back as to not harm Giorno which Giorno even makes note of as to why he could walk it off, otherwise he'd of died orbeen heavily wounded. Lucario wouldnt walk it off for the sole reason that Lucario has such a huge ap advantage that anything Lucario would do would be fatal, to call it attack deflection doesnt seem quite right, it's more of a case of damage and attack reflection and basically any damage Lucario can do would prove fatal which 180's back onto being fatal on him, even if it wouldnt normally be otherwise, unless he has recover or something but I'm certain he doesnt. I'm aware of what Lucario is, but he doesn't exactly have the feats to survive the damage that he could in theory inflict upon Giorno or one of his animals/plants.

Not saying Giorno would win but it's definitely a viable win condition that may or may not happen.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

And Lucario is far from an ordinary human being, he could tank his own blows. I also wonder how Giorno deals with Drain Punch since it drains life energy which makes up a stand, and we've seen before in DIU if a stand is drained of what makes it up it gets weaker.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

>Attack reflection isnt always an OHKO though and in character Giorno rarely does that (woulda been handy in most of the Part 5 fights tbh), Koichi survived it and without his stand he's just an ordinary teenage boy. I could see it stunning Lucario for a bit, but not killing him like it did with Leaky Eyed Luca, but even then, Lucario is far from a plain old human being.

You right it isnt always a Ko but that doesnt matter in this, secondly it really wouldnt of been handy for most of Part 5 (I recommend watching Hamon Beat's new video plus it being out of character is dubious given he does it initially every chance he got, it's more of a case of PIS due to being broken but then again, that's why I said if Giorno picks up on his ap disadvantage, because if he does that, then there's not exactly a huge reason as to not do that), Koichi survived it because Koichi explicitly held back as to not harm Giorno which Giorno even makes note of as to why he could walk it off, otherwise he'd of died orbeen heavily wounded. Lucario wouldnt walk it off for the sole reason that Lucario has such a huge ap advantage that anything Lucario would do would be fatal, to call it attack deflection doesnt seem quite right, it's more of a case of damage and attack reflection and basically any damage Lucario can do would prove fatal which 180's back onto being fatal on him, even if it wouldnt normally be otherwise, unless he has recover or something but I'm certain he doesnt. I'm aware of what Lucario is, but he doesn't exactly have the feats to survive the damage that he could in theory inflict upon Giorno or one of his animals/plants.

Not saying Giorno would win but it's definitely a viable win condition that may or may not happen.

I guess that's buyable

 

[Chariot190]

>And Lucario is far from an ordinary human being, he could tank his own blows. I also wonder how Giorno deals with Drain Punch since it drains life energy which makes up a stand, and we've seen before in DIU if a stand is drained of what makes it up it gets weaker.

See above, Lucario not being human is a detriment because it would instantly put Giorno on guard and wait and see what Lucario can do, which would probably gurantee that Giorno will learn of his disadvantages. Him tanking his own blows doesnt matter and if he's trying to kill, his blows would do damage, dont forget canon Lucario isnt the same as anime, manga, etc Lucario, he has a lot less to work with (plus he's technically weak to himself, I'm honestly not sure if he could tank a bunch of his own blows). Stands arent made up of life energy, well yeah they are although not in the way anyway, actually pretty sure in JoJo life energy is something quite different than Stands and has been featured as something that, well, isnt a stand, but it wouldnt matter, Giorno wouldnt be tanking a drain punch for that to matter ultimately so that doesnt effect anything and going cqc with Giorno is a bad idea, that'd make giving him the ability to deflect damage very easy for him, see Luca and the frog, Lucario would be smart to stay away and try and snipe. As for the the drain thing in part 4, that's just becaue the stand gets weaker if the user does (most blatant example is Pol and Chariot in the cream fight), if youre talking about Rohan and Highway star (who was draining nutrients, not life energy anyway). Although I will double check to make certain.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Was talking bout that silver haired kid, not Highway Star. He drained Rohan's stand and weakened him.

And he could tank his own blows, there's been a Lucario ditto (not the Pokemon) match in the XY anime.

Stands are life energy though, if you look at episode 1 of SDC when Jotaro fought Avdol.

 

[Wardokman69]

Stands aren't even life energy, look at Notorious B.I.G.

Stands with life energy-based is just Hamon-based Stands like Hermit Purple.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah? Because that's that's the Stand's ability? It steals Stands, that had nothing to do with life energy or whatever.

You said canon did you not? How is the anime cano Lucario, canon would be the mainline games.

Which has been retconned to hell and back, ignoring the fact that initial chapter was written when Stands were supposed to by hamon-based (hence why, as hamon was established to be life energy, was even written with the kanji for Hamon), Stands are now simply considered to be the manifestation of a target's soul, quite heaviliy at that given Whitesnake and Chariot Requiem heavily enforce and confirm that.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Stands aren't even life energy, look at Notorious B.I.G.

Stands with life energy-based is just Hamon-based Stands like Hermit Purple.

Well thats not the same type of stand as GE, it's still the user's psyche incarnate

Not true cuz Joseph Joestar says Jotaro's stand is "a vision of your life energy"

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Yeah? Because that's that's the Stand's ability? It steals Stands, that had nothing to do with life energy or whatever.

You said canon did you not? How is the anime cano Lucario, canon would be the mainline games.

Which has been retconned to hell and back, ignoring the fact that initial chapter was written when Stands were supposed to by hamon-based (hence why, as hamon was established to be life energy, was even written with the kanji for Hamon), Stands are now simply considered to be the manifestation of a target's soul, quite heaviliy at that given Whitesnake and Chariot Requiem heavily enforce and confirm that.

And what makes up a stand? Life, your soul and the mind.

Tbh I thought that meant composite Lucario in canon. Obviously I wouldnt use game Lucario cuz its featless outside of gameplay mechanics, it can be beaten / beat practically anything, kinda like how Speedwagon can kill Giorno in Eyes of Heaven

Thats kinda ambigious, its been described as your mind, life, or soul incarnate, it could be all of the above for all we know

 

[Chariot190]

>Well thats not the same type of stand as GE, it's still the user's psyche incarnate. Not true cuz Joseph Joestar says Jotaro's stand is "a vision of your life energy"

And Joseph was wrong (it's actually a retcon but it can be easily explained in universe due to him only ever havng encountered two stands, of which his was one of only two that fit it but needless to say, it was true back when part 3 first started but isnt true now), some stands yeah, not all stands though and definitely not the generic punching ghost.

>Tbh I thought that meant composite Lucario in canon. Obviously I wouldnt use game Lucario cuz its featless outside of gameplay mechanics, it can be beaten / beat practically anything, kinda like how Speedwagon can kill Giorno in Eyes of Heaven

Well it aint, how is composite canon? Composite literally means it draws from every single canon, hell composite Lucario is allegedly universal to give you an idea of what composite actually means. Game Lucario has feats, dex entries and scripted battles with Riley and Korrina plus its movepool. Lucario being beat by anything or beating anything, just like Speedwagon is a case of gameplay mechanics (who we know is kinda useless in lore due to cutscenes, dialouge and the story) but there's still feats and info to go on. If you wanna use composite then fine by me, but then this thread was deadon arrival.

>Thats kinda ambigious, its been described as your mind, life, or soul incarnate, it could be all of the above for all we know

Depends on the Stand honestly, Hermit Purple is soul+life energy, Ball Breaker is Spin visualized given a form, Strength is a boat+stand power, BIG is uh, well who ******* knows, but most generic punch ghosts like GE are the soul, hammered in by Whitesnake (outright stated that the Stand Discs are the soul melted down, and the mind discs, while seperate make up the other half of the soul so the mind is definitely not apart of what makes up a Stand as it's confirmed to be very different) and Chariot Requiem can conrol Stands because it can control souls and stands are apart of what makes the soul, ergo, due to Whitesnake's Stand Discs and Chariot Requiem, we know that Stands, as a general rule, are the souls (plus if i recall the narrator in part 3 at the end outright says the fool is iggy's soul given form).

 

[Chariot190]

>And what makes up a stand? Life, your soul and the mind.

I'd also like to point that even if that was 100% true, it wouldnt do anything for drain punch, drain punch aint draining your soul and mind. While drain punch drains energy it aint that type of energy. Not that it would matter as GE cant tank a drain punch but my point stands despite that.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Before I move onto the main point of Giorno's alledged possible win in short;

1. And? Its still one of the reasons why its ambigious what makes up a stand, many people say its made up of different things, Joseph Joestar says life energy, Koichi says mental energy and Jotaro says your soul (seems to be psyche in literal / raw translations of the DIU anime)

2.Yeah IK how gameplay mechanics work, obviously Speedwagon can't kill Giorno and Lucario isn't "RNG Omnipotent / Weak AF"

3. Same as #1

4. TBH if I read that correctly, dunno if Lucario can hurt intangible souls / life / mind energy but if it does Giorno would most likely die from said attack, I doubt he can tank a punch from what seems to be a mountain level threat considering how a knife from.Soft Machine and his own teeth can make him bleed / pierce his skin, Giorno himself is still a teenage boy.


It still seems like IC Giorno wont rely on reflect, and I just finished rewatching all his battles, he still only does that move if he doesn't want people catching up to him or bothering him, he also still never bothered doing all that vs his other battles, he didnt use it on Green Day's user, even when he was pissed at him, he just muda'd him in a badass way which seems to be what GE does 95% of the time along with other blows. Would Lucario die or get KO'd from the damage reflect? Probably not cuz it can tank stuff like a Blaziken equal to him beating him up. Only reason why Leaky Eyed Luca died was cuz he's an ordinary human being (if you got hit by a shovel REALLY hard thats gonna kill you). But Lucario isn't a human being with no superhuman abilities (by itself, no stands), at best it'd probably stagger or stun him still.

I'm debating whether or nah I should have this thread closed cuz my curiosity of "who would win?" Or "Would GER stalemate this Lucario" has been resolved. Now this has turned into a stalemated argument where neither side can convince one another why said person would win.

 

[Chariot190]

>And? Its still one of the reasons why its ambigious what makes up a stand, many people say its made up of different things, Joseph Joestar says life energy, Koichi says mental energy and Jotaro says your soul (seems to be psyche in literal / raw translations of the DIU anime)

And Joseph's claim was retcon, Koichi was only going off what Josuke told him, in that one needs mental fortitude to control a stand but a Stand isnt mental energy, and Jotaro says your soul, and he ended up being completely right, confirmed by Chariot, Whitesnake and even the omniscient narrator. And it wouldnt matter, we know GE is soul-based given Chariot could control it.

>Yeah IK how gameplay mechanics work, obviously Speedwagon can't kill Giorno and Lucario isn't "RNG Omnipotent / Weak AF"

Then dont bring it up.

>Same as #1

And same as 1 too, GE is outright confirmed to be of the soul variety as Chariot could control it (most Stands are, the stands that arent are the exceptions, not the rule).

>TBH if I read that correctly, dunno if Lucario can hurt intangible souls / life / mind energy but if it does Giorno would most likely die from said attack, I doubt he can tank a punch from what seems to be a mountain level threat considering how a knife from.Soft Machine and his own teeth can make him bleed / pierce his skin, Giorno himself is still a teenage boy.

Lucario cant do that, it was never a question to begin with, he has nothing in his movepool that would allow him to do that nor does he have any feats that would grant him that power, Lucario is only hurting Giorno if he himself attacks Giorno. No shit Giorno cant tank a mountain busting attack, why even bring that up when I said as much about 4 times? Although youre underselling Giorno's durability, he's not even remotely close to just being a teenage kid. Also Soft Machine doesnt use a normal weapon, it has hax (not that it would matter, Chariot uses a sword and said sword is tens of thousand of times above a normal sword, while not comparable to Lucario it ist a normal weapon).


>It still seems like IC Giorno wont rely on reflect, and I just finished rewatching all his battles, he still only does that move if he doesn't want people catching up to him or bothering him, he also still never bothered doing all that vs his other battles,

Already talked about that, he wouldnt rely on it completely but he'd use it (actually it being in character doesnt matter, it's automatic) 1. Actual PIS was why it didnt happen post Bruno, it was simply op and didnt make for interesting fights if it was gonna be spammed. 2. Was never actually able to in most fights. If you rewatched all his battles you would know that when given the chance he did use his deflect. He used on Koichi, Luca, Bruno. And I'm certain a mountain busting aura jackal qualifies as something Giorno wouldnt want to deal with it. And all his other vs battles? Never got the chance or the target directly avoided attacking the animals directly.

>he didnt use it on Green Day's user, even when he was pissed at him, he just muda'd him in a badass way which seems to be what GE does 95% of the time along with other blows.

Yeah? Why would Giorno use his deflect on a character that he can literally kill right then and there? And he couldnt use it on green day's user, his animals would of rot and died. Same reason whyhe didnt use it on White Album, his animals couldnt be created in such a harsh enviroment. Once again I recommend watching Hamon Beat's video, there actually isnt any instance where an opponent Giorno fights even attacks Giorno's creations. And do you really think Giorno would just go up and punch Lucario? If you watced all of Giorno's fights you'd know he doesnt do that, he tries to figure out what his opponents can do and then go from there (well, he does after he gets a bit of experience), and Giorno isnt gonna try and beat the mountain busting dog to death with his fist, which leaves damage reflection as his only viable option.

>Would Lucario die or get KO'd from the damage reflect? Probably not cuz it can tank stuff like a Blaziken equal to him beating him up. Only reason why Leaky Eyed Luca died was cuz he's an ordinary human being (if you got hit by a shovel REALLY hard thats gonna kill you). But Lucario isn't a human being with no superhuman abilities (by itself, no stands), at best it'd probably stagger or stun him still.

Yeah no offense but you clearly dont understand how this works. If Lucario punched something hard enough to say, cave it's skull in, Lucario's skull would in turn cave in, if Lucario punced something hard enough to only scratch it, he'd only get a scratch. Unkless Lucario isnt attacking hard enough to actually harm Giorno then the reflection would inflict massive damage either way, and if he isnt inflicing massive damage on Giorno then Lucario aint gonna be winning either way. It's either Lucario does damage strong enough to kill or heavily wound and as such he takes the same damage he wouldve done or he doesnt do enough damage to kill or heavily wound and he literally cant win as he has no incap options. Luca died because hitting a frog with a shovel would kill a frog, him being a human or lucario being an aura jackal doesnt have any effect on if Lucario and Luca can survive a caved skull. Also it isnt like Giorno can only make one thing to deflect damage.


I'm not even saying Giorno would win, in fact I think Lucario has a bit to many options for damage deflect to turn the tide but damage deflection doesnt care if the attacker would tank said attack, it only matters if the target can, and Giorno cant tank Lucario's blows, his disadvantage is actually a blessing to some extent. Plus it not being in character doesnt matter, given it has been shown to be in character in a quarter of his fights, with two being impossible and the rest the it simply being a nonfactor due to the situation, such as Diavolo.

 

[NekoMorgana647]

Okay? Still, Lucario isn't a human being that'd die from stuff deadly to humans. Lucario usually opens up with close combat or aura sphere, if he's hitting himself with force equivalent to a mountain (basically) he'll survive that and most likely be stunned, I doubt he'd die from it. Now that I realize it, didnt Bucciarati survive that backlash? Even with killing intent. And he's still an ordinary human being. It doesn't seem that harmful if humans can survive that. About Giorno "not being an ordinary teenage boy", then what is he? Take away his stand and you have an answer. I understand how the backlash works but Lucario is durable enough to tank his own blows, it won't equalize the force considering how his body survives hits from his own kind without holes, caved in wounds, etc, he IS NOT a human being named Leaky Eyed Luca, it's like you are saying that as though Giorno's damage reflect would work on everybody in fiction cuz it worked on a human being, which is an NLF statement

And what if Lucario hits Giorno with Ice Punch then freezes him without killing him? The backlash prolly wouldn't even phase Lucario. But he'd still win via incapacitation since Giorno is frozen and unable to fight.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

Now that I realize it, didnt Bucciarati survive that backlash?

He was hiding on someone else's body, that person did it and they died.

Meanwhile, bucc only received a tiny part of the damage.

 

[Chariot190]

>Okay? Still, Lucario isn't a human being that'd die from stuff deadly to humans. Lucario usually opens up with close combat or aura sphere, if he's hitting himself with force equivalent to a mountain (basically) he'll survive that and most likely be stunned, I doubt he'd die from it.

Did you not listen at all? If Lucario hits one of Giorno's things with the force to bust a mountain, those things are gonna ******* explode, ergo, Lucario's gonna literally explode. If Lucario used normal human strength to crush one of Giorno's ants, Lucario is gonna be crished regardless of his durability. It reflects damage, it isnt simply deflecting the attack.

>Now that I realize it, didnt Bucciarati survive that backlash? Even with killing intent. And he's still an ordinary human being. It doesn't seem that harmful if humans can survive that.

Bruno didnt hit the fly, the kid did. And The fly didnt dioe from the swat only knocked on its ass, which is what happened to the kid and Bruno.

>About Giorno "not being an ordinary teenage boy", then what is he? Take away his stand and you have an answer.

A MFTL superhuman?

>I understand how the backlash works but Lucario is durable enough to tank his own blows, it won't equalize the force considering how his body survives hits from his own kind without holes, caved in wounds, etc, he IS NOT a human being named Leaky Eyed Luca, it's like you are saying that as though Giorno's damage reflect would work on everybody in fiction cuz it worked on a human being, which is an NLF statement

No you very clearly dont. It doesnt matter if Lucario can tank his own blows, he isnt taking his attack, he's taking what the target is taking from his attack, how you dont understand this yet is beyond me but either learn the difference or cease this conversation. If Lucario hits, say, a ant with enough force to crush it, even if the force of said attack is miniscule to the point even you could tank it, it wouldnt matter, Lucario woul be crushed by the attack because that's what would happen to the ant. Lucario being human or not doesnt matter, Lucario cant survive being crushed r bisected. I never said it'd work on anybody, don't strawman, if the best you can do is put words in my mouth then I'll take that as the best you got. Of course it wont work on ******* anybody, there's numerous characters I can think of off the top of my head that wouldnt care, including a multitude of pokemon, Lucario aint one of those though, he's susceptible to damage deflection.

>And what if Lucario hits Giorno with Ice Punch then freezes him without killing him? The backlash prolly wouldn't even phase Lucario. But he'd still win via incapacitation since Giorno is frozen and unable to fight.

If Lucario hits Giorno it doesnt matter, it's if he hits any of his creations that would activate the deflect (automatically) so it's already quite clear you dont know how it functions to begin with but why would Giorno allow Lucario to get within a quarter of a meter of him? As that's Lucario's melee range. Lucario would win if he landed a ice punch yeah, but it aint as easy as just doing it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not true. Luca hit a frog with a shovel. His head wasn't caved in when Giornobeat him. And from what I remember from episode two, the blow hospitalized him. Bruno was the one who did him in for failing before his character did a 180 less than 20 minutes later.

 

[GiornoGiovannaF]

Not true. Luca hit a frog with a shovel. His head wasn't caved in when Giornobeat him. And from what I remember from episode two, the blow hospitalized him. Bruno was the one who did him in for failing before his character did a 180 less than 20 minutes later.

no the boss orderd luca to be disposed of after he saw there is no point in him living

that what bruno said

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Point still stands.